Sharing the sufferings of Christ

[TruelightUK]

I wondered what folk understand by Paul's repeated comments on this one, for example:

The Spirit beareth witness with our spirits that we are children of God..and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified with Him. (Rom 8:16,17)

See also 2 Cor 1:5f - "..as the sufferings of Christ abound in us..." -   Phil 3:10 - "..that I may know..the fellowship of his sufferings" -  2 Tim 2:12 - "..if we suffer, we shall also reign with him..." - etc.

I am also intrigued by the verse in Hebrews which says

For it became him...in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering. (2:10)

I guess this links to Phil. 2:6-10 - "Christ Jesus...humbled himself, and became obedient even un to death...wherefore God also hath highly exalted him." (cf Heb 5:8).

To what extent, therefore, can we conclude that part of being 'conformed to his image' includes submitting to similar suffering - ie abuse and loss for righteousness sake - as an essential part of the strengthening of our faith, and learning patiently to endure  injustice and adverse circumstances for his sake, giving thanks to him in every circumstance, so that he can use those things to shape us for his purposes?

Anthony

 

[debs]

Well, just the Lords words of 'take up your cross daily and follow me" are a call to die to ourselves (desires) on a daily basis.

Now, I see that the first thing that must die in me that God can reign and more fully is ............."self : me : I"......... It is a death, and it is a sacrifice, and it hurts....

Thats kind of my starting point in this convo..

 

[Trento]

St. Paul was so filled with the idea of the redemptive power of suffering that he exclaimed: "I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church" (Col. 1:24).Those words of St. Paul are a puzzle to some, for they seem to imply that something is lacking in the Passion of Christ. St. Paul is speaking here of the Mystical Body of Christ, made up of Christ, the Head, and all souls in the state of grace who are the members of His Body. It is in the members of His Body that something is lacking. Shortly before He died Christ exclaimed: "It is consummated!" He says in effect: "All is accomplished that I came to do. By My painful obedience to the Father I offered infinite reparation for the sins of mankind, and merited the restoration of grace for the whole human race." There is no grace that comes to any human that was not merited by Him. He had no need of any other in redeeming the human race. But Jesus willed that the mystery of His Passion continue on in us, so that we may be associated with Him in the work of redemption. Jesus could have accomplished this alone, but He willed to need us in order to apply the infinite merits of His Passion to souls. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his sufferings, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.

 

[LouisBooth]

well its most easily said by the old saying, it takes fire to purify gold..and if gold was alive I'm sure it would "hurt" it a little. I sat down and though about some of this. We we harden our hearts to God, and we all do, he had to break it or break through the "hard" layer..its usually a painful thing.

 

[TruelightUK]

Yes, Trento, I avoided quoting that particular scripture in my initial post for fear of sending folk off on the track of complete-v-incomplete atonement! But since you bring it up, I thought your explanation seemed to cover it very well.
I guess there is also the idea of Christ's sacrifice being complete - once and for all for all time - yet our human co-operation being required to effectually apply its merits to our present exerience. Thus Christ died for all, yet we are called to actively confess Him as Saviour and Lord to enter the Kingdom, and once there need to 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling'. And similarly we need to 'die to self' in imitation of his humble submission, laying down our lives for our friends in order to somehow actively open the way for His grace to enter in. In dying, we live; in losing our lives, we find them; hard-pressed on every side yet never defeated; triumphing over our enemies by our very refusal to resist and fight back.

Anthony

 

[Rafael]

The old man or old nature suffers terribly when it has to lose it's prides and lusts. It's part of picking up the cross daily and heading to the same place Jesus went. Crucifying the works of the flesh is no easy task.

 

[LouisBooth]

raphe? I think the fleshly nature is gone and dead according to what Paul tells us. We only have to allow God now to sanctify us by putting ourselves aside and remembering we are new creations and not fall back into our old habits....

 

[TruelightUK]

But there again what about 'denying yourself daily', 'putting to death the old man', and 'presenting your souls and bodies as a living sacrifice'? As someone once put it, the old man may be dead, but he's in no hurry to lie down! Our spirits are made alive as new creations, but the fact remains, old habits die hard, and when you start telling your flesh it can't have its own way anymore, it hurts!

Anthony

 

[LouisBooth]

", and when you start telling your flesh it can't have its own way anymore, it hurts!"

TOTALLY AGREED!! The thing to remember is that those are habits, not the fleshly nature. Its like an old man being in prison for 20 years, getting out and thinking he has to keep asking permission to go to the bathroom. Its just habit!!! I personally think the shawshake redemption modeled this principle very well. (ie when morgan freeman got out at the end of the movie)..sorry if I spoiled it for anyone

 

[TruelightUK]

Glad we basically agree on that one, Louis!  I see it like this: we have a new spiritual nature, but we still have an un-renewed physical body with the same old urges (awaiting glorification), and a mind and emotions with ingrained habits which need to be re-programmed and transformed from worldly to godly lines (undergoing sanctification), both of which need to be brought into submission to our new identity in Christ.

Now, what about the idea quoted in my first post about Jesus being 'made perfect through suffering'? What exactly are we to understand by that? And does it have any implications for ourselves?

Anthony

 

[LouisBooth]

I think it goes back to what God does. The greatest most 'evil' event in history is having Christ, a perfect man who had done on wrong, die on the cross. The death of a perfectly innocent man. Now God used that as the greatest work he ever did. Now if that most evil act can be used to his greatest good, just think how he can turn around any suffering. I think sometimes it is allowed by God and sometimes caused by him for our spiritual benefit. He is more concerned with our spiritual health then anything else!! I think it is shown through in matthew. The "beatitudes" are people that are blessed because of spiritual conditions. God always seemed to be more concerned with forgiving sins then healing physical alements.

 

[Andrew]

"and sometimes caused by him for our spiritual benefit."
nope God is not a child abuser. He has not come to steal kill and destroy. He's the father of our spirits, not our flesh.

"He is more concerned with our spiritual health then anything else! God always seemed to be more concerned with forgiving sins then healing physical alements."

Huh? makes me wonder why Jesus was annointed to heal so many people and why he bore our sicknesses and pains.

 

[TruelightUK]

I'd certainly see that there is a definite theme in many Scriptural passages along the lines of victory coming through (apparent) defeat, persecution and suffering, grace triumphing amid weakness and so forth. It is our response to such negative experiences which demonstrates the depth and potency of our faith: will they make us 'curse God and die', or will we emerge strengthened in our conviction that 'nothing...shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus'.

It seems to me that our 'sharing in the sufferings of Christ' means that, like him, we are called at times to embrace negative experiences as part of the redemptive process - echoing his prayer of 'if it be possible, take this cup away - nevertheless not my will but yours be done'. For if we were spared the testing of our faith, we would, perhaps, never see its vindication and certainly not learn the virtue of patient endurance. The hard knocks of life are often the greatest school for learning humble submission to the purposes of God; awaiting His redemptive purposes with patient and peaceful hearts, even in the midst of apparent disaster - 'Our God will save us from this fiery ordeal - yet even if He doesn't we will not bow the knee in fear and despair'!

Anthony

 

[LouisBooth]

"He's the father of our spirits, not our flesh."

Exactly! this is why we know that Christ is more concerned with our spiritual condition and sometimes we go through suffering for the spiritual benefit and God allows or works though it.

"'Our God will save us from this fiery ordeal - yet even if He doesn't we will not bow the knee in fear and despair'!"

EXACTLY!!!!! God is a cool guy that way. He doesn't say hey, you're not gonna walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you will, but I'll be with you the whole time.

 

[findtbax]

 saying that you will praise God during your sufferings is a lot harder when it comes time  when you actually are suffering

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by findtbax
 saying that you will praise God during your sufferings is a lot harder when it comes time  when you actually are suffering

Absolutely!  Which is why it carries more weight coming from someone like Daniel & co (whom I quoted), standing on the brink of 'certain death', or Paul, who had suffered in so many ways, yet managed to rejoice through them all. An example followed by martyrs of the faith in every generation, as well as those in otherwise traumatic and painful situations, who resist the temptation given to Job to "Curse God and die".  It is 'when the rubber meets the road' in this kind of situation that we truly know how real our faith is - do we only love God when things are going well and the blessing flowing, or do we trust and praise Him even in the midst of sickness, famine,  persecution and imminent disaster?

I beleive there is a time coming here in the West when we will have to face the kind of persecution for our faith which previous generations saw, and which is common place to many in parts of Asia and Africa etc. today.  How many of us pampered church-goers will still be 'standing up for Jesus' when faced with the loss of our jobs, confiscation of our property, imprisonment or even torture and execution?

Anthony

 

[RaceRunner]

I think the mentioned verses in Rom 8:16,17 are among the most comforting and promising, yet very serious verses in the Bible. It's interesting to see what Paul writes in verses 3 and 4.

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condamned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fullfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

The law was given to keep the people from sin, but it could only condemn the sin when a sinful deed had been done by the body. The law could not condemn sin when the temptation came up in the thoughts, before the temptation led to a sinful deed.

In Hebrews 2:18 we read about the sufferings of Christ: "For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to aid those who are tempted."

Jesus shared the same flesh as the one we have got. (Hebrews 2:14), and experienced the same temptations from the flesh. His sufferings are the sufferings in the flesh. He suffered because he never gave in to sin, the desire never concieved and gave birth to sin. He could do this because he had the Holy Spirit.

Then in Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

This is where we share the sufferings of Christ. We share the temptations, and as long as we don't give in to the temptations we also share his sufferings, because our lusts and desires suffer. We have the power to do this by the Spirit he left us. And the glorious thing is that if we keep sharing his sufferings this way, the sin in the flesh will die, as qouted: "...if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body..."

Can you imagine a greater and more glorious promise than to be able to bring an end to sin? That you who was such a sinner, driven by the lusts and desires, can share his sufferings, and put the sinful lusts to death?

Then we also experience that as we share Jesus death in the flesh, we also start sharing his deeds. The good deeds start growing, and we are conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:28).

Blessed are you who have a mind to put the old sinful life to and end. Start sharing his sufferings in the flesh, and you will also share his glory, as his brother and joint-heir.

Your happy brother in Christ

 

[LouisBooth]

"This is where we share the sufferings of Christ. "

Acutally I think Paul is talking about real physical hardships and suffereings.

 

[RaceRunner]

"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest if his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God." 1. Peter 4:1-2.

If Paul meant physical hardships and sufferings, then what about those who don't share those physical sufferings? Will they not be Jesus' brothers? Will they not be joint-heirs?

Everybody have the opportunity to suffer in the flesh, though for a human being this is harder than to suffer physical sufferings. Lots of people suffer physical hardship every day, but how many understand to share the sufferings of Christ in the flesh and cease from sin?

 

[Kyle]

I have written a book on this subject, which can be read online here:

http://www.jiloa.org/JILOA/Articles/Suffering.html


Some comments on the thread:

"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. " (John 15:19)

Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." (John 14:10). God chose to suffer in the flesh of man.

"Count it all joy when you fall into various trials" (James 1:2). If we are walking in the world as disciples of Christ, we will suffer. No one can ever suffer, or will have to suffer, to the extent of what Christ did. No one will ever have to bear the burden of the sin of all humans.

If we are living by His Word, we will experience suffering in this world. Depending on where you are in the world, you can even die for this living.

Thus, let us "fix our eyes on Jesus." No suffering is truly painful with thoughts on Heaven above while in His presence.