Shapiro vs Owens and the place of the US in the world

[Don Maurer]

I have been following a difference of opinion between Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens. Search the internet and it is all over. Pick your podcast and see what the say about what happened. Candace Owens started by saying she does not want US involvement in Gaza. Shapiro pretty well told her to get out of the daily wire. A few comments below and a final question at the bottom.

JUST WAR: I have followed some of the events and I do agree that Israel is fighting a "just war." Unfortunately, fighting a "just war" against Hamas (or ISIS, or many terrorist organizations) is going to be dirty business. I do not want to be in a place where I must approve of everything done by Israel, but at this point I am not aware of anything Israel is doing that is wrong. Possibly (but I do not think so) questions can be raised about the bombing of the Hospital in Gaza. Yet the Israel Defense Force claims that a Hamas headquarters was under the hospital and they claim it was not their own rocket. What convincing evidence is there that Israel is targeting civilians? Are people against Israel fighting a "just war?"

LIMITED SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL: If this is a "just war," we should give at least limited support for Israel. That support does not need to be public, it can be intelligence, the sale of weapons, etc. It can be public also (the aircraft carrier). That does NOT mean American boots should be on the ground in Gaza! Concerning weapons, we have sold Israel weapons for a half century. Stopping now would seem to be to be a big statement. It would seem we are supporting terrorism. Will we condone 9-11 now? On the other hand, I do not want to see American boots on the ground in Gaza.

MIDDLE GROUND: I think I am in the middle and do not agree with either Candace Owens or Shapiro. I think this is a personal dispute that is unfortunately being made into a national conservative issue. This is something that should be settled by a phone call between the two of them. Its too late for that now! It's far too public. Tucker Carlson is even jumping in (good grief!!).

MY CONCLUSION: I think it would be good for Candace Owens to publicly state that this is a "just war" for Israel, and for Shapiro to stop the crazy temper-tantrum and stop all the personal attacks. It would also be good for Shapiro to express some limits on American behaviors and support. Does he want boots on the ground?

THE QUESTION
I think there is some political philosophy issues in the background. Tucker Carlson has always seem to favor American isolationism. I hear the theme "we do not need to be the worlds policeman." It is an issue that I think conservatives are split on. Should we back out of NATO? Should we back out of all alliances? If a US destroy observes acts of piracy, should they not intervene as long as its not Americans? Can the Chinese Navy attack the UK navy (our "special relationship" ally) and we just watch? WOW, I would hate to see that!!! The UK has been there for us, we need to be there for them. If Hamas attacks Israel and puts baby's in ovens, rapes and murders civilians, takes multiple hostages, should we just say "oh well" and shrug our shoulders. Isolationists, please tell me, what is our place in the world? We give no support to Ukraine? Should we let Hitler conquer the world? She would let the USSR expand communism around the world? Isolationists, please offer an opinion... do we have any responsibility at all?

 

[Unqualified]

If we all just ease back from militarization from each other. But there is evil in the world who will take our freedoms and our lives if even we are good. War is our way of life. But Jesus is coming soon.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have been following a difference of opinion between Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens. Search the internet and it is all over. Pick your podcast and see what the say about what happened. Candace Owens started by saying she does not want US involvement in Gaza. Shapiro pretty well told her to get out of the daily wire. A few comments below and a final question at the bottom.

JUST WAR: I have followed some of the events and I do agree that Israel is fighting a "just war." Unfortunately, fighting a "just war" against Hamas (or ISIS, or many terrorist organizations) is going to be dirty business. I do not want to be in a place where I must approve of everything done by Israel, but at this point I am not aware of anything Israel is doing that is wrong. Possibly (but I do not think so) questions can be raised about the bombing of the Hospital in Gaza. Yet the Israel Defense Force claims that a Hamas headquarters was under the hospital and they claim it was not their own rocket. What convincing evidence is there that Israel is targeting civilians? Are people against Israel fighting a "just war?"

LIMITED SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL: If this is a "just war," we should give at least limited support for Israel. That support does not need to be public, it can be intelligence, the sale of weapons, etc. It can be public also (the aircraft carrier). That does NOT mean American boots should be on the ground in Gaza! Concerning weapons, we have sold Israel weapons for a half century. Stopping now would seem to be to be a big statement. It would seem we are supporting terrorism. Will we condone 9-11 now? On the other hand, I do not want to see American boots on the ground in Gaza.

MIDDLE GROUND: I think I am in the middle and do not agree with either Candace Owens or Shapiro. I think this is a personal dispute that is unfortunately being made into a national conservative issue. This is something that should be settled by a phone call between the two of them. Its too late for that now! It's far too public. Tucker Carlson is even jumping in (good grief!!).

MY CONCLUSION: I think it would be good for Candace Owens to publicly state that this is a "just war" for Israel, and for Shapiro to stop the crazy temper-tantrum and stop all the personal attacks. It would also be good for Shapiro to express some limits on American behaviors and support. Does he want boots on the ground?

THE QUESTION
I think there is some political philosophy issues in the background. Tucker Carlson has always seem to favor American isolationism. I hear the theme "we do not need to be the worlds policeman." It is an issue that I think conservatives are split on. Should we back out of NATO? Should we back out of all alliances? If a US destroy observes acts of piracy, should they not intervene as long as its not Americans? Can the Chinese Navy attack the UK navy (our "special relationship" ally) and we just watch? WOW, I would hate to see that!!! The UK has been there for us, we need to be there for them. If Hamas attacks Israel and puts baby's in ovens, rapes and murders civilians, takes multiple hostages, should we just say "oh well" and shrug our shoulders. Isolationists, please tell me, what is our place in the world? We give no support to Ukraine? Should we let Hitler conquer the world? She would let the USSR expand communism around the world? Isolationists, please offer an opinion... do we have any responsibility at all?

Shapiro is a Jew and 100% pro Israel, what would one expect

Israel doesn't need help in taking on Hamas, they have untold Jewish wealth in Israel, and their weaponry in many areas exceeds the US, their intelligence is 2nd to none

I believe it's a just war based upon Hamas and its recent actions against Israel, should we put US boots on the ground in Israel "No"

Shapiro is letting his Jewish bias get in the way of rational decision making, IMHO

This Israel hype has went so far as to bring calls for any foreign student on a visa in the US who opposes Israel and supports Palestine to be deported?

That sounds like a NAZI dictatorship in America to me

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dr Jordan Peterson explained the conflict fairly accurately, in my opinion.

He said that over two years ago, Trump got the Abraham Accords agreed upon,
which is a peace agreement by Israel and the Arab nations.
When Biden took office, rather than let Trump get the credit, he let the talks die.

Meanwhile, Iran, which funds Hamas and influences them, wants to see the
Abraham Accords go down in flames. So, providing weapons to Hamas and getting
them to attack Israel, is a way they think will kill the Abraham Accords. They may be
right in that we haven't heard much about those talks since Biden became president.

Iran is predominately made up of Shiite Muslims, while the Arab nations like Saudi Arabia,
are Sunni. They hate each other. Hamas is also Sunni, but one thing they have in
common with Iran is their hatred of Israel and the United States. Hamas will
accept help from Shiites, until they get their victory. Then, they'll go back to
fighting the Shiites.

 

[mindlight]

I have been following a difference of opinion between Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens. Search the internet and it is all over. Pick your podcast and see what the say about what happened. Candace Owens started by saying she does not want US involvement in Gaza. Shapiro pretty well told her to get out of the daily wire. A few comments below and a final question at the bottom.

JUST WAR: I have followed some of the events and I do agree that Israel is fighting a "just war." Unfortunately, fighting a "just war" against Hamas (or ISIS, or many terrorist organizations) is going to be dirty business. I do not want to be in a place where I must approve of everything done by Israel, but at this point I am not aware of anything Israel is doing that is wrong. Possibly (but I do not think so) questions can be raised about the bombing of the Hospital in Gaza. Yet the Israel Defense Force claims that a Hamas headquarters was under the hospital and they claim it was not their own rocket. What convincing evidence is there that Israel is targeting civilians? Are people against Israel fighting a "just war?"

LIMITED SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL: If this is a "just war," we should give at least limited support for Israel. That support does not need to be public, it can be intelligence, the sale of weapons, etc. It can be public also (the aircraft carrier). That does NOT mean American boots should be on the ground in Gaza! Concerning weapons, we have sold Israel weapons for a half century. Stopping now would seem to be to be a big statement. It would seem we are supporting terrorism. Will we condone 9-11 now? On the other hand, I do not want to see American boots on the ground in Gaza.

MIDDLE GROUND: I think I am in the middle and do not agree with either Candace Owens or Shapiro. I think this is a personal dispute that is unfortunately being made into a national conservative issue. This is something that should be settled by a phone call between the two of them. Its too late for that now! It's far too public. Tucker Carlson is even jumping in (good grief!!).

MY CONCLUSION: I think it would be good for Candace Owens to publicly state that this is a "just war" for Israel, and for Shapiro to stop the crazy temper-tantrum and stop all the personal attacks. It would also be good for Shapiro to express some limits on American behaviors and support. Does he want boots on the ground?

THE QUESTION
I think there is some political philosophy issues in the background. Tucker Carlson has always seem to favor American isolationism. I hear the theme "we do not need to be the worlds policeman." It is an issue that I think conservatives are split on. Should we back out of NATO? Should we back out of all alliances? If a US destroy observes acts of piracy, should they not intervene as long as its not Americans? Can the Chinese Navy attack the UK navy (our "special relationship" ally) and we just watch? WOW, I would hate to see that!!! The UK has been there for us, we need to be there for them. If Hamas attacks Israel and puts baby's in ovens, rapes and murders civilians, takes multiple hostages, should we just say "oh well" and shrug our shoulders. Isolationists, please tell me, what is our place in the world? We give no support to Ukraine? Should we let Hitler conquer the world? She would let the USSR expand communism around the world? Isolationists, please offer an opinion... do we have any responsibility at all?

Republican isolationism is a major problem not only for the USA but also for the world. American prosperity and security require a global approach. In the case of Israel though Republicans seem more supportive of Israel than are Democrats while in the case of Ukraine, the opposite is the case. Israel has of course every right to defend itself against an existential threat to its every existence but abiding by the rules of just war is essential not only for moral reasons but also for the sake of winning the war against Hamas. Maybe Republicans like Israel more than Ukraine because it is easier to take out a bunch of poorly armed militants than to fight a power like Russia.

 

[RDKirk]

Republican isolationism is a major problem not only for the USA but also for the world. American prosperity and security require a global approach. In the case of Israel though Republicans seem more supportive of Israel than are Democrats while in the case of Ukraine, the opposite is the case. Israel has of course every right to defend itself against an existential threat to its every existence but abiding by the rules of just war is essential not only for moral reasons but also for the sake of winning the war against Hamas. Maybe Republicans like Israel more than Ukraine because it is easier to take out a bunch of poorly armed militants than to fight a power like Russia.

"Just war" is Augustine's idealistic theory. I can argue that no war has ever been "just" according to Augustine.

What we have more-or-less authoritative is the Geneva Conventions...and that is authoritative only because it's supported by the nations that have the international power to enforce it.

Israel has not, at this point, overstepped the Geneva Conventions. Most people don't realize it, but the Geneva Conventions permit attacking things like hospitals, schools, and religious facilities when the opposing force is already using them in combat hostilities. The Geneva Conventions place the blame on the force that is already using them in combat hostilities.

That is why, for instance, American ground forces are prohibited by the US Law of Armed Conflict (the legislated application of the Geneva Conventions) from, say, using a Muslim muezzin tower as a lookout post. All American service members are required to be retrained in the LOAC every year, with special training customized for their particular military occupations.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Geneva Conventions do not require a combatant force to "take a hit" for the sake of civilians when the opposing force is using those civilians to its own advantage.

 

[RDKirk]

Dr Jordan Peterson explained the conflict fairly accurately, in my opinion.

He said that over two years ago, Trump got the Abraham Accords agreed upon,
which is a peace agreement by Israel and the Arab nations.
When Biden took office, rather than let Trump get the credit, he let the talks die.

Meanwhile, Iran, which funds Hamas and influences them, wants to see the
Abraham Accords go down in flames. So, providing weapons to Hamas and getting
them to attack Israel, is a way they think will kill the Abraham Accords. They may be
right in that we haven't heard much about those talks since Biden became president.

Iran is predominately made up of Shiite Muslims, while the Arab nations like Saudi Arabia,
are Sunni. They hate each other. Hamas is also Sunni, but one thing they have in
common with Iran is their hatred of Israel and the United States. Hamas will
accept help from Shiites, until they get their victory. Then, they'll go back to
fighting the Shiites.

Saudi Arabia and Israel had been continuing the Abraham Accords on their own. Saudi Arabia would prefer not to have to look over their shoulders at Israel while they continue their proxy war with Iran.

In fact, just last week I saw an interview with the Saudi foreign minister who spoke of that. In that same interview, he spoke of the 2-state solution...the first time I've heard a Muslim government official support that idea. But he also said that the current war makes concluding the Abraham Accords impossible.

This is why I point out that, so far, the only winner of the Oct 7 attack has been Iran.

 

[iluvatar5150]

"Just war" is Augustine's idealistic theory. I can argue that no war has ever been "just" according to Augustine.

What we have more-or-less authoritative is the Geneva Conventions...and that is authoritative only because it's supported by the nations that have the international power to enforce it.

Israel has not, at this point, overstepped the Geneva Conventions. Most people don't realize it, but the Geneva Conventions permit attacking things like hospitals, schools, and religious facilities when the opposing force is already using them in combat hostilities. The Geneva Conventions place the blame on the force that is already using them in combat hostilities.

That is why, for instance, American ground forces are prohibited by the US Law of Armed Conflict (the legislated application of the Geneva Conventions) from, say, using a Muslim muezzin tower as a lookout post. All American service members are required to be retrained in the LOAC every year, with special training customized for their particular military occupations.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Geneva Conventions do not require a combatant force to "take a hit" for the sake of civilians when the opposing force is using those civilians to its own advantage.

Don't the Geneva Conventions prohibit what they're doing with the settlements in the West Bank?

 

[RDKirk]

Don't the Geneva Conventions prohibit what they're doing with the settlements in the West Bank?

What the Israeli settlers are doing doesn't fall under combatant actions subject to the Geneva Conventions. In fact:

At one point, he said Israeli soldiers joined in the abuse. An Israeli military commander has since been dismissed and an investigation opened, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Palestinians in the West Bank say Israeli settlers attack them, seize their land amid the war with Hamas

Israelis in West Bank settlements considered illegal under international law are seizing Palestinian homes by force, residents tell CBS News.

www.cbsnews.com

So, the official military action has been to discipline IDF participating in those activities on the West Bank.

 

[The Lone Ranger]

News to me. She didn't say it on her show to my knowledge. Do you have proof?

 

[Avniel]

I think we should stay out the Middle East. We’ve done enough there and every time we leave things get worse and the hatred for our country grows.

 

[Don Maurer]

Republican isolationism is a major problem not only for the USA but also for the world. American prosperity and security require a global approach. In the case of Israel though Republicans seem more supportive of Israel than are Democrats while in the case of Ukraine, the opposite is the case..........

I think we should stay out the Middle East. We’ve done enough there and every time we leave things get worse and the hatred for our country grows.

mondlight and Avniel,
It is obvious that we have two different political philosophies in your statements. Mindlight sees isolation as a problem and favors using our military as power projection to keep the current global order. Evniel sees withdrawl and isolation as a wise policy. My own philosophy is much more confusing. I am not sure what is best and I am open to arguments from either side. I observe the Houthis attacking everyone in the gulf. Their motive is to "support Palistine." They seem like a bunch of warlike degenerates to me.

Evniel, if we withdraw, do we leave sea lanes open to any warlike degenerate to disrupt world trade?

mindlight, I notice the republican reservations on support for Ukraine also. However, so far, we have not given Ukraine really that much. We have given them some last generation equiptment that would soon cost us money to put it in storage. It is probably cheaper for us to ship it to Ukraine than spend money putting it in storage. However, I am curious in your opinion, how far would you go? Should we be sending better weapons? Would a few F35s be in order? So you favor increased gifts to Ukraine, or just keeping up the same standard of military donations?

 

[mindlight]

I think we should stay out the Middle East. We’ve done enough there and every time we leave things get worse and the hatred for our country grows.

As long as oil is crucial to the world economy and therefore the Suez Canal and straits of Hormuz to global trading then there needs to be some force higher than the petty rivalries of the locals to ensure that the trade can flow freely.

Also, Israel is an ally both because of the circumstances of its birth in the aftermath of the Holocaust, because of its commitment to democracy in an autocratic region, and because of shared religious convictions about the land promise of God to the Hebrews.

Hatred is the standard setting in the Islamic world unless they are dominant in which case things are much worse.

To those with great power comes great responsibility and also benefits. The USA may be tired after its engagements in the Middle East but it remains the only power that can act with impunity across the region. History shows very clearly that war follows when the mighty walk away or when it is no longer clear who is the top power.

 

[mindlight]

mondlight and Avniel,
It is obvious that we have two different political philosophies in your statements. Mindlight sees isolation as a problem and favors using our military as power projection to keep the current global order. Evniel sees withdrawl and isolation as a wise policy. My own philosophy is much more confusing. I am not sure what is best and I am open to arguments from either side. I observe the Houthis attacking everyone in the gulf. Their motive is to "support Palistine." They seem like a bunch of warlike degenerates to me.

Evniel, if we withdraw, do we leave sea lanes open to any warlike degenerate to disrupt world trade?

mindlight, I notice the republican reservations on support for Ukraine also. However, so far, we have not given Ukraine really that much. We have given them some last generation equiptment that would soon cost us money to put it in storage. It is probably cheaper for us to ship it to Ukraine than spend money putting it in storage. However, I am curious in your opinion, how far would you go? Should we be sending better weapons? Would a few F35s be in order? So you favor increased gifts to Ukraine, or just keeping up the same standard of military donations?

I do not think that Ukraine could support F-35 aircraft as a considerable infrastructure is required for that, nor is it appropriate to give our latest equipment into a warzone on our borders as we may well need it later ourselves. I believe that the solution there will result in a split of the country but neither side is ready to accept that yet. Ukraine could then join the EU and have an understanding with NATO that would guarantee its borders but not land-recovery plans, without long-term threats to world peace.

Iran's axis of resistance opposes the right of Israel to exist at all, let alone within the framework of a two-state solution. The Jews have suffered enough and the return is of religious significance also in my view even if the current Zionist regime does not act according to God's ways. Iran also disrupts world trade and destabilizes an alright fraught and tense region. They are major sponsors of a drug trade that is ruining ordinary Muslims lives across the region and their continual sponsorship of terrorism brings only ruin and mayhem.

As you say America's support for Ukraine constitutes a renewal of its inventory and an upgrade of its capability. In the meantime, a serious rival, Russia, defined as such by Donald Trump in his presidency is weakened by the ongoing actions of Ukraine. It's a win-win situation for the USA right now for very little cost. It also sends a clear message to China over Taiwan that it cannot simply walk in and take over 90% of the advanced chip manufacturing in the world. Weakness in Ukraine gives the signal for the Chinese to invade Taiwan.

 

[Avniel]

As long as oil is crucial to the world economy and therefore the Suez Canal and straits of Hormuz to global trading then there needs to be some force higher than the petty rivalries of the locals to ensure that the trade can flow freely.

Also, Israel is an ally both because of the circumstances of its birth in the aftermath of the Holocaust, because of its commitment to democracy in an autocratic region, and because of shared religious convictions about the land promise of God to the Hebrews.

Hatred is the standard setting in the Islamic world unless they are dominant in which case things are much worse.

To those with great power comes great responsibility and also benefits. The USA may be tired after its engagements in the Middle East but it remains the only power that can act with impunity across the region. History shows very clearly that war follows when the mighty walk away or when it is no longer clear who is the top power.

That seems a tad bit colonial to be honest. I think now we are entering if we have a moral right to do so.

At some point the people that lived in the area should have been allowed equal access. We are making the same mistakes that the crusaders have made and that was a black eye on Christianity. I have no issue with a Jewish ram Israel, however I also believe that natives of those lands should also have access.

I think that hatred involves a lot of oil, a lot of pressure from European nations and it has not only lead to lives being taken on this soil. How many madmen have we raised to power in that region? Most terrorist organizations have been American trained.

Time to open up the Alaskan pipeline and leave the Middle East to the Middle East. It will be our destruction. We need to regroup, kick Asian companies out, pay China back and start manufacturing, the cost of living has to come down and the value of the dollar has to rise. We need to go back to a gold backing we had before the politicians sold us out. America is turning into a 3rd world country with the largest army.