Shall we all get into the habit?

Joshua G. · Mar 20, 2012

It's worth it if you can afford it. 2 kids, car payments, a mortgage, day-care and school fees later, my wife and I live and spend significantly different than when we were first married when we told each other that we were ALWAYS going to get organic, etc. lol Ah those days.

Admittedly, if we were motivated by it like we are about the evils of abortion (where we often have to stick out as if we had green faces because of things we can't participate in or what have you because this or that company/charity supports abortion in some small way)_then we surely could make it happen.

The chemicals aren't good... to be sure... but you do what you can do according to your sanity, lol

choirfiend · Mar 20, 2012

Yup. I dont buy organic* necessarily, but I TRY to buy local. And we have perhaps the tiniest food budget in the county. We've added kids but not increased our budget at all.

It ends up making me TRY (I didnt say succeed) to not keep a giant pantry, to cook simple foods, to eat less, etc. I try to take away from processed foods (and eating out, which we did too much of last year) to find my budget for fresh produce and responsible meats. The milk is slightly cheaper than regular milk Also, we get real eggs from fellow parishioners who bought some chickens this year. $2/doz is slightly more expensive than factory farmed eggs, but worth it, and cheaper than the $3.50 we used to pay a local CSA. Still, it's a remarkable source of MANY nutrients, and at even $3.50/doz, it's a CHEAP food, well worth the difference from the factory eggs. We're starting small (like buying real eggs and milk) and slowly changing our selections to be better. I still love my boxed MacNCheese, though. It doesnt have to break the bank, Josh.

*my husband is a chemist and did research on organic roses.....There are often pesticides even on organic things. I'd rather just focus on getting small farm local food that is much fresher and retains more nutrients.

Knee V · Mar 20, 2012

I tend to find the whole "organic" thing to be a marketing scam myself. I believe that "local" produce is at least just as good as anything "organic".

Ann_of_Love · Mar 20, 2012

knee-v said:
I tend to find the whole "organic" thing to be a marketing scam myself. I believe that "local" produce is at least just as good as anything "organic".

I tend to agree. Most of the stuff I buy isn't labelled organic, but I'm darn sure it's just as (if not more) organic than the stuff labelled as such! Cheaper, too!

Joshua G. · Mar 20, 2012

choirfiend said:
Yup. I dont buy organic* necessarily, but I TRY to buy local. And we have perhaps the tiniest food budget in the county. We've added kids but not increased our budget at all.

It ends up making me TRY (I didnt say succeed) to not keep a giant pantry, to cook simple foods, to eat less, etc. I try to take away from processed foods (and eating out, which we did too much of last year) to find my budget for fresh produce and responsible meats. The milk is slightly cheaper than regular milk Also, we get real eggs from fellow parishioners who bought some chickens this year. $2/doz is slightly more expensive than factory farmed eggs, but worth it, and cheaper than the $3.50 we used to pay a local CSA. Still, it's a remarkable source of MANY nutrients, and at even $3.50/doz, it's a CHEAP food, well worth the difference from the factory eggs. We're starting small (like buying real eggs and milk) and slowly changing our selections to be better. I still love my boxed MacNCheese, though. It doesnt have to break the bank, Josh.

*my husband is a chemist and did research on organic roses.....There are often pesticides even on organic things. I'd rather just focus on getting small farm local food that is much fresher and retains more nutrients.

Right, I get it. But it takes really believing it matters a huge deal and believing that your part in it makes a difference to the greater whole because it is a lifestyle change. But, you basically stated what I did. You take the steps you can but what you can do is directly affected by how strongly you are convinced that it matters. You and I theoretically could live like little house on the prairie... where there's a will... But we don't, not because it is physically impossible, but because you and I are only convinced to certain degrees of how much it mattered. SO, we're on the same page. I do what I can and you do what you can still eating your mac and cheese now and then.

Josh

MKJ · Mar 20, 2012

Thekla said:
MKJ said:

Actually, I don't buy from Amazon either

Indeed, at our local Amazon warehouse (where a friend worked) they did not install air conditioning but instead kept ambulances parked outside to transport heat exhaustion suffers !

They undermine local economies (tax issue) and the opportunity to support local bookstores which often act as de facto community centers (even when, *sigh*, all that is available locally is a chain). They take a massive cut from their sellers (I need to look into policies at Alibris and ABE, too.)

Their cost/discount policies hurt small publishers; their publishing moves and size threaten to monopolize publishing. This is not only dangerous to diversity in publishing, this is exactly the strategy used to kill the competition - and then of course price to consumer will rise.

Actually, although Pa. is warmer, you might look into open pollinated Russian and Czech tomatoes. They don't mind the cold so much, and would bear into the cold season when other varieties were long gone. In PA, they put up with a Feb/March planting too. Swiss chard can grow through the snow, as can some other greens (bloody sorrel, at least here).

Best with your growing !

Click to expand...

Ah, we can grow tomatoes and such. What I find with ost British gardening books is that there is just so much adaptation required that they become difficult to use. So they grow perrenials that are not winter hardy here, or they give directions for winter crops, or the amount of pasture they suggest or hay to grow is not nearly enough, or they think I can grow all kinds of green manure in the winter! And overwinter my parsnips and just go out and get them when I want them, which would work well if I didn't have to chip them out of the ground.

Which isn't to say I never use British books, but if I were new to gardening and buying one book, that would be something to watch out for.

I read an interesting article on the warehouse workers for these big online companies - apparently they usually hire them through temp companies, and so they stay as temp workers for years, with low pay and no benefits or anything. And as you said, bad bad working conditions.

MKJ · Mar 20, 2012

Joshua G. said:
Oh, and we do get organic milk, but I have a question: does that mean it's hormone free? I actually care more about that than chemicals. Can someone let me know? And if not, where do you find that?

Josh

A lot of chemicals mimic hormones though, it is probably a lot more significant than actual hormones in meat or milk. FWIW organic milk isn't supposed to come from cows treated with hormones. (Canadian milk isn't either if you live anywhere near Canada.) You could also try goat's milk if that is easily available to you.

Thekla · Mar 20, 2012

Thekla said:
=MKJ;60071929]

Thekla said:

Ah, we can grow tomatoes and such. What I find with ost British gardening books is that there is just so much adaptation required that they become difficult to use. So they grow perrenials that are not winter hardy here, or they give directions for winter crops, or the amount of pasture they suggest or hay to grow is not nearly enough, or they think I can grow all kinds of green manure in the winter! And overwinter my parsnips and just go out and get them when I want them, which would work well if I didn't have to chip them out of the ground.

Which isn't to say I never use British books, but if I were new to gardening and buying one book, that would be something to watch out for.

I read an interesting article on the warehouse workers for these big online companies - apparently they usually hire them through temp companies, and so they stay as temp workers for years, with low pay and no benefits or anything. And as you said, bad bad working conditions.

Click to expand...

Our friend was hired as a temp. - he worked there for months, but didn't make it to permanent position. (It seems that few do.) He was called back for the holiday season, then let go again. It would be interesting to read the article.

I did over-winter carrots in the ground once - in the spring, we got to watch the woodchucks dig them up to eat

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 20, 2012

If it has eyes and a mother, it doesn't enter Gurney's gullet! Chicken is pumped with anti-biotics and hormones. If you watch a film like Food Inc., you'll see how they pump these poor chickens with so much hormone and anti-biotics, their breasts swell up so large (by design) that they can't even walk! They are kept inside massive mills in which the windows are covered with black so the light can't come in. They are brutally-treated and are so fat that they can't walk. They barrell over and get trampled. They are not only unhealthy to eat, they are treated barbarically and by buying the meat, we support such barbarity. So when people chide and mock me (thankfully, it doesn't happen too much), my ethics keep me proud to shine it on and just keep veggin' it up.

If you're going to eat meat, fish is the best as it is high in omega 3's and healthy protein/oils. Beef is worthless basically. Pork, too.

We don't drink at all (cow that is)--we drink almond milk. The vanilla almond milk is to die for good! Usually has more vitamins and general healthy everything than cow's milk or soy milk.

The sausage I eat in the morning with my cage-free organic eggs is from Boca and my Lord it tastes like real sausage! Low fat and high in fiber and protein. Awesome stuff.

Most people don't even know it when they're eating our vegetarian stuff as it tastes so dang good. I love to trick my red meat Republican buddies!

Joshua G. said:
I agree with you on the USDA. I love it (sarcasm) when some food industry rep is interviewed about something controversial and they say "It's safe: the USDA approves of it" and my wife and I look at it each other like "and?" as if the latter were proof of anything other than that we aren't eating shards of glass (mind goes back to SNLs classic Christmas skit wherein they advertize "glass in a bag" for kids. lol).

Personally, what I care about more than chemicals (not that that shouldn't matter) is hormones. I don't know, but I would find it hard to believe that that isn't a big reason behind why our girls start to mature so early (starting menstrual cycles in elementary school!). I am sure there are other factors but...

And the fact that red dye (and what's the other proven culprit of ADD symtpoms... yellows dyes) is still allowed in food and food geared towards children despite what science clearly shows us.

I'm not convinced all of these chemicals are the worst thing in the world, despite how it sounds on paper. They aren't great and should be avoided if people have the stamina and dinero. But I guess I feel like for someone like my wife and I, there are SOOOOOO many battles to pick and we would get burnt out quickly. We just don't have the activist mindset to be able to penny pinch literally everywhere so as to completely buck the system. So, for us, we choose the battles we know we can sustain in the long run. Watching carbs, making sure we invest heavily in fruits and veggies (even if they have chemicals... I am convinced it's better than less fruits and veggies), try to buy stuff with out hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils/fats (like "natural" peanut butter) and other little things that form part of my kids' staples.

Oh, and we do get organic milk, but I have a question: does that mean it's hormone free? I actually care more about that than chemicals. Can someone let me know? And if not, where do you find that?

Josh

choirfiend · Mar 20, 2012

Cage-free eggs just means its from birds like you described, free to "wander" around an airplane-hanger-sized factory, stumbling over 10,000 other chickens and their waste. It doesn't mean pastured. Organic probably means it gets soy, corn, and "other chickens from the same farm ground up" feed. Cage free ain't the answer.

Beef and pork have a ton of conjugated linoleic acid if they are grassfed. Maybe not as good as fish, but good to eat in small amounts.

check out eatwild.com for more "normal" animal products. Basically, if we eat like we did for thousands of years (raising our own meat/animal products, growing our own food in smaller quantities) we are way healthier. Duh, huh?

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 20, 2012

Ah, but you're making assumptions that I haven't already looked into this! These eggs are free-range roaming chickens and usually I get the Amish ones. These chickens live not inside mills of misery. If you read the carton (of which I pay top $$, usually triple to quadruple what regular eggs cost) you can see the details. There are just cage-free eggs and then there are the "just" free-range. The ones I get are free-range, outdoor, cage-free, organic, and they have plenty of room. I investigate everything, trust me. If it isn't pastured, roaming free, and happy, I am not buying.

I stay a million miles away from GMO products, btw, been like you said, "duh!"

I get a ton of c. linoleic acid in all the other foods I eat. I must admit, I could never eat kale on its own. I hate to eat that juiced with blueberries and other mega-fruits. I hate that dang kale! Yuck!

choirfiend said:
Cage-free eggs just means its from birds like you described, free to "wander" around an airplane-hanger-sized factory, stumbling over 10,000 other chickens and their waste. It doesn't mean pastured. Organic probably means it gets soy, corn, and "other chickens from the same farm ground up" feed. Cage free ain't the answer.

Beef and pork have a ton of conjugated linoleic acid if they are grassfed. Maybe not as good as fish, but good to eat in small amounts.

check out eatwild.com for more "normal" animal products. Basically, if we eat like we did for thousands of years (raising our own meat/animal products, growing our own food in smaller quantities) we are way healthier. Duh, huh?

Philothei · Mar 20, 2012

my...my ... now I have to read all yinz posts.... hehe...

Joshua G. · Mar 21, 2012

MKJ said:
A lot of chemicals mimic hormones though, it is probably a lot more significant than actual hormones in meat or milk. FWIW organic milk isn't supposed to come from cows treated with hormones. (Canadian milk isn't either if you live anywhere near Canada.) You could also try goat's milk if that is easily available to you.

Good stuff to know (and to choirfiend, I believe it was). Well, that is a place where we spend our money (Organic milk is about twice as much) so I will keep chugging away at that.

We also usually bye all of our meats as "natural" as we can find them on the general market. The ones that at least claim to be not fed hormones and such (as "guaranteed by the FDA label on it which, honestly, doesn't mean that much since they aren't funded even a minimal amount to do even somewhat of a respectable job of oversight) but that's easy because we don't really eat that much meat at home anyhow. If we were big meat eaters, we wouldn't be able to afford that.

I did learn that for some fruits and vegetables, organic vs non-organic doesn't matter much at all, such as with bananas... whereas apples are much higher on that list. But, obviously if we want to buy local only, bananas are out for most of us here lol. I laugh but I don't think that's a silly stance at all. I've watched specials on buy local only communities and their points are solid nutritionally, economically (as far as how it affects their local community) and environmentally. What I don't like is how they often purport that the economic sacrifice isn't that bad. I suppose that's a matter of perception. I don't know about other people, but I do know when I compare prices at a Farmer's market... well, let's just say that buying any kind of berry (because the difference is extremely noticeable between store-bought and farmer's market of ANY berry whereas apples... not so much for me) at a Farmer's Market is a special treat because they taste and look awesome... and they cost a boatload of money comparatively.

Now, in my useless blabbing here, I have a question: does anyone else notice in their area that organic "baby" carrots (which are relaly just big carrots cut up to look like baby carrots lol) cost exactly the same a non-organic when both are not on sale. That seems fishy to me. What's that about? It made me wonder if carrots are just one of those veges (maybe all roots?) that don't really need chemicals anyway so they just package them differently as a marketing scheme?

Also, bananas are so cheap that even when they are priced absurdly high, they are an amazing bang for your buck. Why is that? have things not really changed that much in how the laborers are treated as to the Banana Republic days. 52 cents a pound on a non-sale day? Something just seems too good to be true with that (human rights wise), doesn't it?

Josh

Assisi · Mar 21, 2012

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is kangaroo meat. It's a great meat without many of the associated ethical and health concerns of other meats. It's free range, no chemicals, no hormones, lower in fat and higher in iron that other red meats. It's more expensive, but it's yummy and guilt free.

choirfiend · Mar 21, 2012

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Ah, but you're making assumptions that I haven't already looked into this! These eggs are free-range roaming chickens and usually I get the Amish ones. These chickens live not inside mills of misery. If you read the carton (of which I pay top $$, usually triple to quadruple what regular eggs cost) you can see the details. There are just cage-free eggs and then there are the "just" free-range.

Good! A lot of people think they are doing the good thing by buying "cage free" and have no idea they are paying more for still bad things. How much do you pay for eggs? Like I said, our CSA was $3.50-3.75/doz, but now we;re getting eggs from parishioners who use the $ to buy feed and keep their chickens supplying eggs/meat to them at basically no cost. BTW, Amish are kinda notoriously cruel to animals--they are huge in the puppy farm market.

I have two Kale recipes for you that you might like! Everyone else does.

Kale Chips:
Wash, dry and de-stalk 1lb of kale. Coat leaves lightly in oil, 1-2T. Put in single later on cookie sheet, sprinkle with garlic powder, salt, pepper, other spices if you want, and roast until the kale is inflexible, but not turning brown. Serve immediately. My daughter LOVED these at 1yr. They're TASTY, a deep, rich flavor.

Coconut Cream Kale: from Wegmans
Wash, dry, and de-stalk 1lb of kale. Blanch in boiling water for 5min to soften, then drain well. Saute a 1/2t of diced garlic in a smidge of oil til lightly browned, then add some red pepper flakes. Pour in 1/2can of coconut milk, and stir til thickening. Return Kale to pot and stir to coat. I've been making this for every lenten potluck, and it's a hit! Compliments left and right.

choirfiend · Mar 21, 2012

Joshua G. said:
Good stuff to know (and to choirfiend, I believe it was). Well, that is a place where we spend our money (Organic milk is about twice as much) so I will keep chugging away at that.

We also usually bye all of our meats as "natural" as we can find them on the general market. The ones that at least claim to be not fed hormones and such (as "guaranteed by the FDA label on it which, honestly, doesn't mean that much since they aren't funded even a minimal amount to do even somewhat of a respectable job of oversight) but that's easy because we don't really eat that much meat at home anyhow. If we were big meat eaters, we wouldn't be able to afford that.

I did learn that for some fruits and vegetables, organic vs non-organic doesn't matter much at all, such as with bananas... whereas apples are much higher on that list. But, obviously if we want to buy local only, bananas are out for most of us here lol. I laugh but I don't think that's a silly stance at all. I've watched specials on buy local only communities and their points are solid nutritionally, economically (as far as how it affects their local community) and environmentally. What I don't like is how they often purport that the economic sacrifice isn't that bad. I suppose that's a matter of perception. I don't know about other people, but I do know when I compare prices at a Farmer's market... well, let's just say that buying any kind of berry (because the difference is extremely noticeable between store-bought and farmer's market of ANY berry whereas apples... not so much for me) at a Farmer's Market is a special treat because they taste and look awesome... and they cost a boatload of money comparatively.

Now, in my useless blabbing here, I have a question: does anyone else notice in their area that organic "baby" carrots (which are relaly just big carrots cut up to look like baby carrots lol) cost exactly the same a non-organic when both are not on sale. That seems fishy to me. What's that about? It made me wonder if carrots are just one of those veges (maybe all roots?) that don't really need chemicals anyway so they just package them differently as a marketing scheme?

Also, bananas are so cheap that even when they are priced absurdly high, they are an amazing bang for your buck. Why is that? have things not really changed that much in how the laborers are treated as to the Banana Republic days. 52 cents a pound on a non-sale day? Something just seems too good to be true with that (human rights wise), doesn't it?

Josh

A friend was telling me about some weird treatment that bananas get that is really bad for the workers--thats why they buy organic bananas. Idk if its true or not, and we do buy regular bananas--they are a great bang for the buck.
Berries are SO expensive in general. Thats why I admit to buying sams club frozen berries, it's about $3.25 a lb and I can get it in the winter. Apples are often cheaper at our farmers markets where I can get a 1/2 bushel for $6 or something.

Our organic baby carrots are actually baby carrots, not cut up, but I bet theyre grown inside hydroponically or something that doesnt really require pesticides. they are close in price to regular ones.

Joshua G. · Mar 21, 2012

Good! A lot of people think they are doing the good thing by buying "cage free" and have no idea they are paying more for still bad things.

Yeah, when we learned that, we realized it was just a cruel hoax/ deceptive.

Joshua G. · Mar 21, 2012

Assisi said:
Something I haven't seen mentioned here is kangaroo meat. It's a great meat without many of the associated ethical and health concerns of other meats. It's free range, no chemicals, no hormones, lower in fat and higher in iron that other red meats. It's more expensive, but it's yummy and guilt free.

I'll see if I can find that at my local Farmer's Market. lol

Thekla · Mar 21, 2012

Berries are expensive, but are easy to grow.

If you can find a large tub, or restaurant sized pickle barrel, they'll do fine with minimal care.

The ever-bearing variety we grow sets fruit July through the Fall, with the Fall season being the most abundant. The plants cost about 15$ each, and have more than paid for themselves. They send out new plants each year, which can be transplanted (and have survived mailing to others by priority mail).

I have grown blackberries in the past, but they are not as "tame" as raspberries. It took me days each year to check their spread - now we just keep an eye open for wild patches.

Joshua G. · Mar 21, 2012

What about blueberries? how do they compare to either of these?

Shall we all get into the habit?

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