Shabbat Shalom.....

[Laodicean]

....at least to those who still believe in the Sabbath. I hope everyone had a great week, regardless.

I'm reading through the old threads, starting with the inception of this subforum. Very interesting. Many insights.

Catch up later, folks. I'm back to reading

 

[Kira Light]

time for vespers!

 

[VictorC]

....at least to those who still believe in the Sabbath. I hope everyone had a great week, regardless.

Did it ever occur to you that those of us who acknowledge God's redemption from the former covenant's sabbath happen to believe in it more than those finding a need to give it lipservice?

 

[k4c]

Did it ever occur to you that those of us who acknowledge God's redemption from the former covenant's sabbath happen to believe in it more than those finding a need to give it lipservice?

The fourth commandment tells us that even our working animals are to cease in honor of God's holy day. I tried to tell my plow horse that he no longer has the Sabbath rest because his rest is now in Jesus. He didn't seem to get it.

The fourth commandments tells us that our male and female servants (employees) now have to work seven days a week, including on the Sabbath because their rest is now in Jesus. When I told them to forget about gathering with God's family on the Sabbath to partake of the gifts that God has given to His church for the edification of His people they just didn't understand.

The fourth commandment tells us that our sons and daughters are to cease from labor on the Sabbath in honor of God's holy day. I told them they need to finnish painting the house and when they get don't with that their is much more to do. They told me that they were the praise team and how they were the youth leaders in the church. I told them they need to rest in Jesus so get back to work. They just didn't understand.

Ya know, I kinda like your religious beliefs because I can sure get a lot done around here.

There was once a guy who slept with many woman. He lied, stole and worshiped idols. When I asked him about what he believed he said he was a G Damm Christian. I told him that I found it hard to believe that he was a Christian based on his life style and the way he used God's name in vain. He told me he was a spiritual Christian.

Lipservice is saying we spiritually obey the fourth commandment.

 

[VictorC]

The fourth commandment tells us that even our working animals are to cease in honor of God's holy day. I tried to tell my plow horse that he no longer has the Sabbath rest because his rest is now in Jesus. He didn't seem to get it.

The fourth commandments tells us that our male and female servants (employees) now have to work seven days a week, including on the Sabbath because their rest is now in Jesus. When I told them to forget about gathering with God's family on the Sabbath to partake of the gifts that God has given to His church for the edification of His people they just didn't understand.

The fourth commandment tells us that our sons and daughters are to cease from labor on the Sabbath in honor of God's holy day.

Each time I have asked you what the fourth commandment was a commandment of, you have failed to recognize that the fourth commandment was contained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses. The sabbath was a sign of Judaism (Exodus 31:17), exclusive to the children of Israel under the first covenant, and your comments reveal your disdain for Christianity.

I told them they need to finnish painting the house and when they get don't with that their is much more to do. They told me that they were the praise team and how they were the youth leaders in the church. I told them they need to rest in Jesus so get back to work. They just didn't understand.

Just like your horse, they don't understand your fictitious tale telling them they need to be circumcised Jews.

Ya know, I kinda like your religious beliefs because I can sure get a lot done around here.

Is such disdain for Christians normal among SDA's? You're the second who has displayed it in this thread.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

There was once a guy who slept with many woman. He lied, stole and worshiped idols. When I asked him about what he believed he said he was a G Damm Christian. I told him that I found it hard to believe that he was a Christian based on his life style and the way he used God's name in vain. He told me he was a spiritual Christian.

How does your disobedience make you better than him?

Lipservice is saying we spiritually obey the fourth commandment.

This is an admission that you don't keep the sabbath holy, consistent with with your failure to recognize what the sabbath was a shadow of.

Did it ever occur to you that those of us who acknowledge God's redemption from the former covenant's sabbath happen to believe in it more than those finding a need to give it lipservice?

 

[Laodicean]

time for vespers!

lol, the good old days when vespers was mandatory and led to one person I know praying at an end-of-Sabbath vespers, "Lord, thank you that the Sabbath is over." Whoa. What's wrong with that picture!

 

[Laodicean]

Did it ever occur to you that those of us who acknowledge God's redemption from the former covenant's sabbath happen to believe in it more than those finding a need to give it lipservice?

Victor, Victor, Victor......you and I both are on the same page when it comes to the Sabbath rest from our own legalistic works. I believe in the "rest that remains" for us, just as you do. Okay? Brother?

However, what I meant is that there are those on this forum who apparently no longer believe in the seventh-day Sabbath. That was all that I was addressing. I wouldn't say to you, "Shabbat Shalom" because you are so dead set against the seventh-day Sabbath. I hope you understand the difference.

 

[k4c]

Each time I have asked you what the fourth commandment was a commandment of, you have failed to recognize that the fourth commandment was contained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses. The sabbath was a sign of Judaism (Exodus 31:17), exclusive to the children of Israel under the first covenant, and your comments reveal your disdain for Christianity.

Just like your horse, they don't understand your fictitious tale telling them they need to be circumcised Jews.

Is such disdain for Christians normal among SDA's? You're the second who has displayed it in this thread.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

How does your disobedience make you better than him?

This is an admission that you don't keep the sabbath holy, consistent with with your failure to recognize what the sabbath was a shadow of.

Did it ever occur to you that those of us who acknowledge God's redemption from the former covenant's sabbath happen to believe in it more than those finding a need to give it lipservice?

You have a flawed belief system. You believe because we sin it's okay. The Law points out sin so that those who are coming to God and those who are in God can make the changes needed to be godly. Your belief systems says, "Let us do evil so that good may come". God says such behavior will have its right punishment.

We all know that sin will be with us until sin is done away with. God calls us to die to sin, resist sin, turn away from sin. I don't see any verses that say, "Oh well, lets just continue to sin since we're gonna sin anyway so that God's grace may abound".

 

[VictorC]

You have a flawed belief system. You believe because we sin it's okay. The Law points out sin so that those who are coming to God and those who are in God can make the changes needed to be godly. Your belief systems says, "Let us do evil so that good may come". God says such behavior will have its right punishment.

You're quick to accuse orthodox Christianity of having a flawed belief system, but each time you're requested to document what it is, all you can do is show your lack of Biblical literacy. Your comments caused me to respond with a question: "How does your disobedience make you better than him?" This is because of a flaw that you exibited.

Romans 3
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"? ----as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one..."

Your response charges me with your claim that I advocate continuing in sin. Paul met your accusation exactly as you portrayed it with a response that your condemnation is justified.

He then continues with the same line of reasoning I used: does your disobedience make you better than another's disobedience? His answer is a resounding "NO", because we aren't better than you are, and you deserve condemnation. You already know that the law illustrates your sin by your continued transgression to it. Christianity affirms a need for redemption, while you refuse God's redemption so that you can remain guilty before God and endeavor to please God with your carnal motions of disobedience. Romans 3:19 follows the verses quoted above to show you have no legal recourse for reconciliation: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God". Romans 10:1-4 offer more reason why your actions based on your own efforts is indicative of a refusal to submit to God's righteousness.

We all know that sin will be with us until sin is done away with. God calls us to die to sin, resist sin, turn away from sin. I don't see any verses that say, "Oh well, lets just continue to sin since we're gonna sin anyway so that God's grace may abound".

You didn't base your comments on sin.

You based your entire response to me on the sabbath, which you are no more compliant with than anyone else on this entire forum. Your whole response shows that you don't believe in the sabbath ordained by the first covenant as much as I do. Why? Because you have replaced it with a truncated rendition that is not compliant with the law that ordained it.

You are as lawless as any base criminal, and unlike most others, you aren't even cognizant of your disobedience. You don't keep the sabbath holy, and you also see no reason to enter into God's "My rest" that those of us who believe have entered into. The example you set doesn't garner sympathy, but rather exposes hypocrisy that deters others from following you.

 

[VictorC]

Victor, Victor, Victor......you and I both are on the same page when it comes to the Sabbath rest from our own legalistic works. I believe in the "rest that remains" for us, just as you do. Okay? Brother?

What "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works"? The entity you describe doesn't even exist in Scripture. The "rest that remains" is differentiated from the sabbath in Hebrews 4.

However, what I meant is that there are those on this forum who apparently no longer believe in the seventh-day Sabbath. That was all that I was addressing. I wouldn't say to you, "Shabbat Shalom" because you are so dead set against the seventh-day Sabbath. I hope you understand the difference.

I am cognizant of God taking the covenant that ordained the sabbath away with His own hand, affirmed by Hebrews 10:9 and the surrounding context. I am also aware that you haven't kept the sabbath holy in 2000 years. As I mentioned, I believe in the nature of the sabbath described in Scripture.

You do not.

Adventism has replaced it with an unBiblical truncated version that opposes the reality of God's rest we have entered into. Adventism has also made the sabbath shadow requisite for earning eternal life, and does not affirm God's "redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance" described in Hebrews 9:15.

After all, if you believe in the sabbath, why don't you keep it holy?

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Victor, Victor, Victor......you and I both are on the same page when it comes to the Sabbath rest from our own legalistic works. I believe in the "rest that remains" for us, just as you do. Okay? Brother?
​

What "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works"?

the meaning of "sabbath" is rest. When we cease from our own legalistic works, we have entered into the "rest" that remains for us. The seventh-day Sabbath is a reminder of this resting from our self-righteous works ... among other reminders. What do you have against reminders, anyway?

The entity you describe doesn't even exist in Scripture. The "rest that remains" is differentiated from the sabbath in Hebrews 4.

what is this "entity" that you are referring to? Is it the seventh day Sabbath? That "entity" is found in Scripture. Or are you referring to the entity of "rest from our own works"? That is in Hebrews 4. Please explain yourself.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

However, what I meant is that there are those on this forum who apparently no longer believe in the seventh-day Sabbath. That was all that I was addressing. I wouldn't say to you, "Shabbat Shalom" because you are so dead set against the seventh-day Sabbath. I hope you understand the difference.
​

I am cognizant of God taking the covenant that ordained the sabbath away with His own hand, affirmed by Hebrews 10:9 and the surrounding context. I am also aware that you haven't kept the sabbath holy in 2000 years.

you are quite right about that. I am nowhere near 2000 years old, so I could not have kept the Sabbath holy in all of those 2000 years. Beyond that correction, how have you become aware of my not keeping the Sabbath holy? Dreams and visions maybe? Projection? Rhetoric?

As I mentioned, I believe in the nature of the sabbath described in Scripture.

so do I, as galling as it may be to you to find yourself on the same page as me.

You do not.

and how do you know me so well? Do tell.

Adventism has replaced it with an unBiblical truncated version that opposes the reality of God's rest we have entered into. Adventism has also made the sabbath shadow requisite for earning eternal life, and does not affirm God's "redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance" described in Hebrews 9:15.

are you proselytizing in this forum, Victor? You seem intent on convincing readers that Adventism is incorrect and that you have found the truth to which we must adhere, or else ....

After all, if you believe in the sabbath, why don't you keep it holy?

how do you know that I don't keep it holy?
__________________

 

[VictorC]

the meaning of "sabbath" is rest. When we cease from our own legalistic works, we have entered into the "rest" that remains for us. The seventh-day Sabbath is a reminder of this resting from our self-righteous works ... among other reminders. What do you have against reminders, anyway?

what is this "entity" that you are referring to? Is it the seventh day Sabbath? That "entity" is found in Scripture. Or are you referring to the entity of "rest from our own works"? That is in Hebrews 4. Please explain yourself.

Refer to what I had written before:
What "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works"? The entity you describe doesn't even exist in Scripture. The "rest that remains" is differentiated from the sabbath in Hebrews 4.

You're the one who claimed that there remains a "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works", and you haven't provided any support for your thesis.

you are quite right about that. I am nowhere near 2000 years old, so I could not have kept the Sabbath holy in all of those 2000 years. Beyond that correction, how have you become aware of my not keeping the Sabbath holy? Dreams and visions maybe? Projection? Rhetoric?

My awareness is based on the knowledge of the law. No one since 70AD has kept the sabbath holy, because they have had no access to the Levitical priesthood making the burnt offerings in compliance with the law (Numbers 28:9-10).

so do I, as galling as it may be to you to find yourself on the same page as me.

Why does Adventism find it necessary to replace the Biblical sabbath with a truncated version?

and how do you know me so well? Do tell.

Because you advocate something other than the Biblical sabbath.

are you proselytizing in this forum, Victor? You seem intent on convincing readers that Adventism is incorrect and that you have found the truth to which we must adhere, or else ....

This is a discussion forum, where we engage in theological discussions that naturally fall into the realm of apologetics. Your perception of alleged proselytizing is due to recognition that your beliefs differ from those advocating the unity of the faith entrusted to us (Ephesians 4:11-16, Jude 1:3). Perhaps you could consider if your perception is based on fact in this case, as Adventism considers itself the remnant that is distinctive from Christianity, codified in SDA Fundamental Belief #13 when it refers to others as "apostate":

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Being called "out" is concession that Adventism doesn't seek unity with those it considers "apostate", a conclusion determined by Adventism's own theological errors, an example of which is their replacement of the commandments of God with the first covenant.

None the less, I think your perception is based on the messenger, and not the message - and is an appeal to argumentum ad hominem. Changing the focus from the Biblical message to the person presenting it and the motive alleged behind it is a logical fallacy that illustrates an inability to address the departure from the Gospel Adventism promotes.

how do you know that I don't keep it holy?
__________________

God has decreed all the recipients of the first covenant that ordained the sabbath disobedient, and he didn't leave a exemption for anyone: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

Which part of "all" did you think yourself excluded from? There is no appeal against God's conclusion.

 

[Cribstyl]

Lao, Lao, Lao, did you know that SDA are not the Jewish nation that God set apart to keep the sabbath?

Did you notice that the geneologies are written to identify blood relative of Abraham?

Paul explained that his brothers after the flesh would be grafted back in, after the Gentiles came in.

Notice that the broken off branch are alive today all arround the world, they're still keeping their identity and their sabbath that SDA try to imitate.
Why does SDA reject these people are the Children of Israel?

Did you know that the Jerusalem council concluded that Gentiles would not become Jewish proselytes and keep their ceromonies?

 

[nathanlandon1]

....at least to those who still believe in the Sabbath. I hope everyone had a great week, regardless.

I'm reading through the old threads, starting with the inception of this subforum. Very interesting. Many insights.

Catch up later, folks. I'm back to reading

My mom brought this up, but does it seem like the weekdays go by super fast, and then when the sabbath comes the days go regular speed?

I wouldn't doubt that God "shortened the [week]days," but keeps His holy day.

After all, time is just an evolution of events. If you can do an infinite amount of things in an infinitesimal amount of time, then there really is no "time."

Just wondering if people have the same perception.

 

[Cribstyl]

My mom brought this up, but does it seem like the weekdays go by super fast, and then when the sabbath comes the days go regular speed?

I wouldn't doubt that God "shortened the [week]days," but keeps His holy day.

After all, time is just an evolution of events. If you can do an infinite amount of things in an infinitesimal amount of time, then there really is no "time."

Just wondering if people have the same perception.

If you made it a habbit to do little to nothing on any particular day, would it not appear to go by slowly?

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

the meaning of "sabbath" is rest. When we cease from our own legalistic works, we have entered into the "rest" that remains for us. The seventh-day Sabbath is a reminder of this resting from our self-righteous works ... among other reminders. What do you have against reminders, anyway?

what is this "entity" that you are referring to? Is it the seventh day Sabbath? That "entity" is found in Scripture. Or are you referring to the entity of "rest from our own works"? That is in Hebrews 4. Please explain yourself.
​

Refer to what I had written before:
What "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works"? The entity you describe doesn't even exist in Scripture. The "rest that remains" is differentiated from the sabbath in Hebrews 4.

Okay. Please enlighten me as to what you think "the rest that remains" is.

And if you are looking for the word "legalistic works" in Scripture, you won't find those exact words. But the concept is there. Surely, you do not need the precise words in order to form solid conclusions, do you? What will happen if you had to read scripture in another language?

You're the one who claimed that there remains a "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works", and you haven't provided any support for your thesis.

Sure, there is scriptural support. I might say, "Cease from your own legalistic works." But here's the translation: "Come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God."

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You don't need to see the words "legalistic works" in order to understand the concept that to try to work your way into heaven through lawkeeping is works of the most legalistic variety. We are called to rest from such vain attempts. Such rest is sabbath. Sabbath means rest.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

you are quite right about that. I am nowhere near 2000 years old, so I could not have kept the Sabbath holy in all of those 2000 years. Beyond that correction, how have you become aware of my not keeping the Sabbath holy? Dreams and visions maybe? Projection? Rhetoric?
​

My awareness is based on the knowledge of the law. No one since 70AD has kept the sabbath holy, because they have had no access to the Levitical priesthood making the burnt offerings in compliance with the law (Numbers 28:9-10).

Victor, I wish that you would dig deeper....really. What makes you think that only the Levitical priesthood will enable lawkeeping? That shadow has been replaced with something much better. It has been replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood. While the Levitical priesthood ministered to just the Jews, the Melchizedek priesthood (the ministry of Jesus) ministers to all nations. Since 31 AD, we no longer have the type, with the need for burnt offerings as a reminder and shadow of things to come. We have the antitypical priest, Jesus, who has made it possible for us to keep the law through HIS power, not our own power.

If you would inlcude in your "soteriology" the understanding that there are two laws in play here, the ceremonial law, a shadow of things to come, with types that point to antitypes, and a moral law, unchanging and no shadow of anything to come, you would be better able able to harmonize all the varying texts in scripture. So far, you are pounding away on a few, to the neglect of others.

Why does Adventism find it necessary to replace the Biblical sabbath with a truncated version?

and what, in your opinion, is the Biblical sabbath?


Originally Posted by Laodicean

and how do you know me so well? Do tell.
​

Because you advocate something other than the Biblical sabbath.

Tell me in plain words what you consider to be the Biblical sabbath, and I will tell you if I agree with you or not.

This is a discussion forum, where we engage in theological discussions that naturally fall into the realm of apologetics. Your perception of alleged proselytizing is due to recognition that your beliefs differ from those advocating the unity of the faith entrusted to us (Ephesians 4:11-16, Jude 1:3). Perhaps you could consider if your perception is based on fact in this case, as Adventism considers itself the remnant that is distinctive from Christianity, codified in SDA Fundamental Belief #13 when it refers to others as "apostate":

Adventism may consider itself the remnant, but I don't consider our denomination to be the remnant. I believe the remnant is scattered throughout the world and can be found in all denominations. SDAs have some valuable contributions to make, but that does not automatically make them the remnant. The remnant, imo, is anyone who does justice, loves mercy, and walks humbly with their God. Anyone who sincerely lives up to all the light he/she has is the remnant. Those who love God with all their heart and soul and mind, and their neighbor as themselves...they are the remnant.

Originally Posted by SDA Fundamental Belief #13

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
​

Being called "out" is concession that Adventism doesn't seek unity with those it considers "apostate", a conclusion determined by Adventism's own theological errors, an example of which is their replacement of the commandments of God with the first covenant.

A remnant is called out by whoever has a grasp of the end-time message and are calling God's people, wherever they are, to accept the increasing light. Anyone can do this, not just SDAs. Indeed, SDAs are not immune from dropping the ball.

As to seeking unity, I submit that unity is obtained trhrough compromise. Compromise is good in some areas, but not in ohers where the conscience is so convicted that it cannot, in good faith, give up on its conviction. Ecumenical unity will succeed only through compromise. But what to do if some convictions run so deep that they cannot be compromised? Do you propose persecuting such people in hopes they will change their minds?

None the less, I think your perception is based on the messenger, and not the message - and is an appeal to argumentum ad hominem. Changing the focus from the Biblical message to the person presenting it and the motive alleged behind it is a logical fallacy that illustrates an inability to address the departure from the Gospel Adventism promotes.

I think I've been quoting scripture so far. What person is this that I am basing my perception on?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

how do you know that I don't keep it holy?
__________________
​

God has decreed all the recipients of the first covenant that ordained the sabbath disobedient, and he didn't leave a exemption for anyone: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

do you seriously believe that Romans 11:32 means that God wants us to be disobedient? That He redeemed us so that we could continue to lie and kill and steal in order that He might show us mercy?" Strange theology that your "soteriology" has led you into.

Which part of "all" did you think yourself excluded from? There is no appeal against God's conclusion.

Your perspective is too superficial for me to embrace, Victor. You quote one text and hang all your weight upon it, without harmonizing it with other texts. You need to broaden your study.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Yea, we establish the law."

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

And these are just a few of a myriad of texts that need to be harmonized with your one single text above.

 

[Laodicean]

Lao, Lao, Lao, did you know that SDA are not the Jewish nation that God set apart to keep the sabbath?

Crib, Crib, Crib, I do know that the SDAs are not the Jewish nation, but Gal. 3:29 reveals that "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." We gentiles have been grafted in.

Did you notice that the geneologies are written to identify blood relative of Abraham?

what does that have to do with being Christ's and therefore heirs according to the promise?

Paul explained that his brothers after the flesh would be grafted back in, after the Gentiles came in.

Notice that the broken off branch are alive today all arround the world, they're still keeping their identity and their sabbath that SDA try to imitate.
Why does SDA reject these people are the Children of Israel?

where do SDAs reject that the Jews are the children of Israel? And why do you think SDAs are trying to imitate the Jews? They are adhering to the 10 commandments, not to the Jewish practices.

Did you know that the Jerusalem council concluded that Gentiles would not become Jewish proselytes and keep their ceromonies?

yes, I know that. And?

 

[VictorC]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

the meaning of "sabbath" is rest. When we cease from our own legalistic works, we have entered into the "rest" that remains for us. The seventh-day Sabbath is a reminder of this resting from our self-righteous works ... among other reminders. What do you have against reminders, anyway?

what is this "entity" that you are referring to? Is it the seventh day Sabbath? That "entity" is found in Scripture. Or are you referring to the entity of "rest from our own works"? That is in Hebrews 4. Please explain yourself.
​

Okay. Please enlighten me as to what you think "the rest that remains" is.

And if you are looking for the word "legalistic works" in Scripture, you won't find those exact words. But the concept is there. Surely, you do not need the precise words in order to form solid conclusions, do you? What will happen if you had to read scripture in another language?



Sure, there is scriptural support. I might say, "Cease from your own legalistic works." But here's the translation: "Come unto Me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God."

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You don't need to see the words "legalistic works" in order to understand the concept that to try to work your way into heaven through lawkeeping is works of the most legalistic variety. We are called to rest from such vain attempts. Such rest is sabbath. Sabbath means rest.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

you are quite right about that. I am nowhere near 2000 years old, so I could not have kept the Sabbath holy in all of those 2000 years. Beyond that correction, how have you become aware of my not keeping the Sabbath holy? Dreams and visions maybe? Projection? Rhetoric?
​

Victor, I wish that you would dig deeper....really. What makes you think that only the Levitical priesthood will enable lawkeeping? That shadow has been replaced with something much better. It has been replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood. While the Levitical priesthood ministered to just the Jews, the Melchizedek priesthood (the ministry of Jesus) ministers to all nations. Since 31 AD, we no longer have the type, with the need for burnt offerings as a reminder and shadow of things to come. We have the antitypical priest, Jesus, who has made it possible for us to keep the law through HIS power, not our own power.

If you would inlcude in your "soteriology" the understanding that there are two laws in play here, the ceremonial law, a shadow of things to come, with types that point to antitypes, and a moral law, unchanging and no shadow of anything to come, you would be better able able to harmonize all the varying texts in scripture. So far, you are pounding away on a few, to the neglect of others.




and what, in your opinion, is the Biblical sabbath?


Originally Posted by Laodicean

and how do you know me so well? Do tell.
​

Tell me in plain words what you consider to be the Biblical sabbath, and I will tell you if I agree with you or not.




Adventism may consider itself the remnant, but I don't consider our denomination to be the remnant. I believe the remnant is scattered throughout the world and can be found in all denominations. SDAs have some valuable contributions to make, but that does not automatically make them the remnant. The remnant, imo, is anyone who does justice, loves mercy, and walks humbly with their God. Anyone who sincerely lives up to all the light he/she has is the remnant. Those who love God with all their heart and soul and mind, and their neighbor as themselves...they are the remnant.



A remnant is called out by whoever has a grasp of the end-time message and are calling God's people, wherever they are, to accept the increasing light. Anyone can do this, not just SDAs. Indeed, SDAs are not immune from dropping the ball.

As to seeking unity, I submit that unity is obtained trhrough compromise. Compromise is good in some areas, but not in ohers where the conscience is so convicted that it cannot, in good faith, give up on its conviction. Ecumenical unity will succeed only through compromise. But what to do if some convictions run so deep that they cannot be compromised? Do you propose persecuting such people in hopes they will change their minds?



I think I've been quoting scripture so far. What person is this that I am basing my perception on?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

how do you know that I don't keep it holy?
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do you seriously believe that Romans 11:32 means that God wants us to be disobedient? That He redeemed us so that we could continue to lie and kill and steal in order that He might show us mercy?" Strange theology that your "soteriology" has led you into.



Your perspective is too superficial for me to embrace, Victor. You quote one text and hang all your weight upon it, without harmonizing it with other texts. You need to broaden your study.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Yea, we establish the law."

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

And these are just a few of a myriad of texts that need to be harmonized with your one single text above.

The response that you offered here hasn't addressed the point I raised to your attention. You're the one who claimed that there remains a "sabbath rest" from your "own legalistic works". Where is this "sabbath rest" you have alleged exists? At some point in time I need to accept your ability to comprehend the Biblical texts sufficiently to understand you haven't supported the premise you introduced.

It is a simple and direct request.

 

[nathanlandon1]

If you made it a habbit to do little to nothing on any particular day, would it not appear to go by slowly?

Perhaps, but I am talking about conscious time vs. "real" time i.e. the movements of the stars, sun/moon rise and set, celestial activities.

Also, on a human level my activity has been constant throughout the week (the activities themselves varies.) In other words, I have not "made it a habit to do little to nothing on a[ny] particular day." I have been watching time very closely - perceived time and "real-time."

On the Sabbath I don't "do nothing;" a similar amount of events happen on my day-to-day. I have watched my cable box and phone LOSE TIME at the rate of 6 - 7 seconds/day (I timed it/tested it over several weeks.) My mother was the one that mentioned the Sabbath being longer (which I agree with,) but it is not hard to see there is a time differential in general.

 

[Laodicean]

Perhaps, but I am talking about conscious time vs. "real" time i.e. the movements of the stars, sun/moon rise and set, celestial activities.

Also, on a human level my activity has been constant throughout the week (the activities themselves varies.) In other words, I have not "made it a habit to do little to nothing on a[ny] particular day." I have been watching time very closely - perceived time and "real-time."

On the Sabbath I don't "do nothing;" a similar amount of events happen on my day-to-day. I have watched my cable box and phone LOSE TIME at the rate of 6 - 7 seconds/day (I timed it/tested it over several weeks.) My mother was the one that mentioned the Sabbath being longer (which I agree with,) but it is not hard to see there is a time differential in general.

Hi, Nathanlandon, you make a very interesting observation. How did you set up your test? What did you measure your times against in order to recognize the loss of time?

I know there is a school of thought out there that holds that time is indeed speeding up. The premise is that the universe is expanding and as a result it makes the seconds tick by faster in order for our time frame to remain constant. Something to do with the relationship between space, time and the speed of light. Another opinion is that acceleration creates time dilation and thus a slower tick rate. So that's the opposite opinion. Interesting stuff.

Here's another source: "Time is actually speeding up (or collapsing). For thousands of years the Schumann Resonance or pulse (heartbeat) of Earth has been 7.83 cycles per second. The military have used this as a very reliable reference. However, since 1980 this resonance has been slowly rising. It is now over 12 cycles per second! This means there is the equivalent of less than 16 hours per day instead of the old 24 hours."

Science fiction? Maybe. Who knows. I'm no scientist, and I don't understand half of what they are referring to, but it's always interesting to think outside the box to see what new insights can be discovered.