Sexual Sins

[OllieFranz]

Im sorry, where exactly to do you claim that their sexual sin was not part of the reason that Sodom was destroyed here?

Eze 16:49-50 KJV Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

So it adds a few things there, and doesnt spell out 'men lying with men as one does a woman' ....so ?
It still shows they 'committed abomination'
apparently, based on Levitical law, God does tend to see men laying with men like one does a woman as 'abomination'.

Im failing entirely to see how you have removed their sexual sins from that passage.

Of course Sodom, like any human community was home to sinners of every stripe, including adulterers, fornicators and other sexual sinners. But there is no evidemce in the Bible that their sexual sins were the specific cause of Sodom's downfall. Every passage that references the sin of Sodom spells out their greed , their lack of hospitality, their haughtiness, etc.

And while the "abominations" in Ezekiel 16:50 are "toevah," which is the same word used in Leviticus 18:22, as I stated earlier, that everywhere (else) that it is used it refers either to ritual impurity (of a stronger sort than merely "unclean") which would not apply to Gentiles, or to idolatry. It is more natural to read "toevah" as idolatry in this case.

In short, unless you have already determined that the special sin of Sodom is "man-lying" and that "man-lying" refers to any and all homosexual activity, the Bible offers no reason to connect Sodom and homosexuality.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

You have not presented any "stats." And being gay is not "sexual sin." I engage in no sexual sin. I don't even have sex. But I am gay.

You are attacking gay people with your posts. You are making sweeping generalizations about us, and you are comparing gay people to people who do horrible things. It's not slander to call you on what you do, to speak the truth about it. It's not slander if it's true. The things you say about gay people are not true. The fact that you are attacking gay people IS true.

If you stop attacking gay people, then I will stop pointing out that you are attacking gay people. Be respectful toward gay people, and you won't be called on what you say. Deal?

You are misrepresenting me all together.

1) Homosexual sex is a sin. According to Scripture
2) Sex that doesn't follow God's guidelines produces disease
3) In particular (since is our topic) Homosexual sex produces disease
4) I'm not comparing the homosexual act with any terrible behavior: I'm illustrating a point using your example:

4a) You said you were homosexual because God made you that way. So, I asked you, for instance, what about a psychopath? Isn't he that way because God made him that way?

Simple questions.

What about a man or woman (heterosexual) who likes to sleep around? Did God make them that way?

These are not comparisons of the two activities but examples of people with various proclivities. If your argument has any validity than it should apply to all people and their "natural" urges, shouldn't it? God made them that way?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

1) Homosexual sex is a sin. According to Scripture

no its not, sex that occurs outside of commited relationships is a sin.

2) Sex that doesn't follow God's guidelines produces disease

a. which guidlines would those be?
b. the safest form of sexually intimacy is female homosexual sex. Sure you want to stick with that "disease = God's disaproval" line?

3) In particular (since is our topic) Homosexual sex produces disease

This statement is utterly untrue. Absolutely, 100% false.

4a) You said you were homosexual because God made you that way. So, I asked you, for instance, what about a psychopath? Isn't he that way because God made him that way?

An interesting question, however the behaviour of an unrestricted psychopath causes harm to second and third parties... homosexuality does not.

These are not comparisons of the two activities but examples of people with various proclivities. If your argument has any validity than it should apply to all people and their "natural" urges, shouldn't it? God made them that way?

natural urges that do not harm anyone else and are conducted with the informed adult consent of all other parties are moral. Simple yardstick. Anything that doesn't meet this simple standard may be considered immoral.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

no its not, sex that occurs outside of commited relationships is a sin.a. which guidlines would those be?
b. the safest form of sexually intimacy is female homosexual sex. Sure you want to stick with that "disease = God's disaproval" line?This statement is utterly untrue. Absolutely, 100% false.An interesting question, however the behaviour of an unrestricted psychopath causes harm to second and third parties... homosexuality does not.natural urges that do not harm anyone else and are conducted with the informed adult consent of all other parties are moral. Simple yardstick. Anything that doesn't meet this simple standard may be considered immoral.

natural urges that do not harm anyone else and are conducted with the informed adult consent of all other parties are moral. Simple yardstick. Anything that doesn't meet this simple standard may be considered immoral.

When I say "natural" I don't mean correct. Either, in the case of homosexuality, or other forms of fornication.

I'm a little at a loss, why homosexuals would want to debate on a Christian forum when Christian doctrine expressly forbids fornication.

Now, I can understand seeking a solution to the behavior a remedy, counseling but why contend regarding it's normality when, Christianity expressly says fornication is sin.

Fornication is something we all need to guard against, especially as it concerns "lust" in our hearts, because it is so available and too easily accessible through the gateway of the internet.

Fornication (where physical contact occurs) of all kinds is harmful and spreads disease. This is a well established fact.

 

[Ohioprof]

You are misrepresenting me all together.

1) Homosexual sex is a sin. According to Scripture
2) Sex that doesn't follow God's guidelines produces disease
3) In particular (since is our topic) Homosexual sex produces disease
4) I'm not comparing the homosexual act with any terrible behavior: I'm illustrating a point using your example:

4a) You said you were homosexual because God made you that way. So, I asked you, for instance, what about a psychopath? Isn't he that way because God made him that way?

Simple questions.

What about a man or woman (heterosexual) who likes to sleep around? Did God make them that way?

These are not comparisons of the two activities but examples of people with various proclivities. If your argument has any validity than it should apply to all people and their "natural" urges, shouldn't it? God made them that way?

I will answer each of your points.

1) It is not clear from your scripture that "homosexual sex is a sin." Different people interpret in different ways the few passages of scripture that may or may not address this topic. Since I do not adhere to the Bible as an authority, I have no position on what its says. I don't follow the Bible, and arguments over what the Bible says are meaningless to me.

2) God has given people no "guidelines" for sex, in my view. The Bible was not written by God, nor was it inspired by God, in my view. I reject your premise. You appear to believe that "God's guidelines" require sex between a man and a woman in a monogamous marriage. You suggest that any sex outside of this kind of relationship produces disease (you probably mean spreads disease). That's simply not true. Sex between two women almost never spreads STDs, as someone else has already pointed out. Sex between married opposite-sex spouses CAN spread disease. A man who is already infected with an STD can marry a woman, and she can contract the STD from her husband. Married heterosexual spouses contract STDs from each other all the time.

3) Homosexual sex does not spread disease any more than heterosexual sex spreads disease. Most of the AIDS cases in the world are among heterosexuals. And lesbian sex almost never spreads STDs, as people have pointed out several times. It's not the sexual orientation of the people that spreads disease; it's the specific sexual practices that can spread disease if one of the people involved is infected.

4) You have compared gay people to psychopaths. This is as nasty comparison. If someone compared Christians to psychopaths, wouldn't you find this nasty?

4a) I have already answered your question. Since you apparently didn't read my answer, I will repeat myself.
There are conditions that people are born with (I can't speak for psychopathology, since I don't know enough about it) that are clearly problems for people. People are born with congenital problems all the time. Let's take one that is not so nasty-sounding. Let's take a congenital heart condition. Does God make people with heart conditions? Yes. Is the condition a problem? Often yes. Should we seek to treat the condition if we can? Usually yes. Why? Because the heart condition is a problem for the child, and we want to help the child by getting rid of the problem if we can.

Now let's look at being gay. Does God make people gay? Yes. Is this a problem? No. Should we seek to make people somehow become not gay? No. Why? Because being gay is not a problem.

 

[Ohioprof]

When I say "natural" I don't mean correct. Either, in the case of homosexuality, or other forms of adultery.

I'm a little at a loss, why homosexuals would want to debate on a Christian forum when Christian doctrine expressly forbids fornication.

Now, I can understand seeking a solution to the behavior a remedy, counseling but why contend regarding it's normality when, Christianity expressly says fornication is sin.

Fornication is something we all need to guard against, especially as it concerns "lust" in our hearts, because it is so available and too easily accessible through the gateway of the internet.

Fornication (where physical contact occurs) of all kinds is harmful and spreads disease. This is a well established fact.

You are stretching the meaning of "fornication" to mean "gay." You are searching for reasons to point fingers at us and to exclude us from the community of Christians. We will not be excluded.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

When I say "natural" I don't mean correct. Either, in the case of homosexuality, or other forms of fornication.

I'm a little at a loss, why homosexuals would want to debate on a Christian forum when Christian doctrine expressly forbids fornication.

Now, I can understand seeking a solution to the behavior a remedy, counseling but why contend regarding it's normality when, Christianity expressly says fornication is sin.

Fornication is something we all need to guard against, especially as it concerns "lust" in our hearts, because it is so available and too easily accessible through the gateway of the internet.

Fornication (where physical contact occurs) of all kinds is harmful and spreads disease. This is a well established fact.

A. homosexual sex does not equal fornication

B. Once again, female homosexual activity is one of the safest activities on the planet... MUCH safer than heterosexual sex

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I will answer each of your points.

1) It is not clear from your scripture that "homosexual sex is a sin." Different people interpret in different ways the few passages of scripture that may or may not address this topic. Since I do not adhere to the Bible as an authority, I have no position on what its says. I don't follow the Bible, and arguments over what the Bible says are meaningless to me.

It is abundantly clear from scripture that fornication is sin. Fornication, the word Jesus used includes: any kind of illicit sexual act, which includes: Adultery, premarital sex, homosexual sex, and sex with other species. In other words sexual conduct that is outside the realm of man and wife (wife being a female).

2) God has given people no "guidelines" for sex, in my view. The Bible was not written by God, nor was it inspired by God, in my view. I reject your premise.

Well, that's fine. You are at liberty to disagree. My question is then. Why are you debating this issue with people who believe in the scripture as the inspired word of God?

It doesn't make sense that you'd try and convince a Christian that fornication is acceptable to God when, our text repeatedly says over and over that it is not.

You appear to believe that "God's guidelines" require sex between a man and a woman in a monogamous marriage. You suggest that any sex outside of this kind of relationship produces disease (you probably mean spreads disease). That's simply not true. Sex between two women almost never spreads STDs, as someone else has already pointed out.

This is not true. From what I've read the studies are very small partially because Lesbians are not inclined to be checked regularly. Regardless "almost never" is not a term I've heard used in any medical report.

Sex between married opposite-sex spouses CAN spread disease. A man who is already infected with an STD can marry a woman, and she can contract the STD from her husband. Married heterosexual spouses contract STDs from each other all the time.

It is fornication which spreads the disease not married heterosexual sex but those who go outside the bounds of marriage either the male or the female.

3) Homosexual sex does not spread disease any more than heterosexual sex spreads disease. Most of the AIDS cases in the world are among heterosexuals. And lesbian sex almost never spreads STDs, as people have pointed out several times. It's not the sexual orientation of the people that spreads disease; it's the specific sexual practices that can spread disease if one of the people involved is infected.

We are discussing fornication which spreads disease in particular we are discussing homosexual sex which absolutely does spread disease more readily then other types when we are referring to anal sex.

4) You have compared gay people to psychopaths. This is as nasty comparison. If someone compared Christians to psychopaths, wouldn't you find this nasty?

No I haven't I was comparing behavioral tendencies. I've even included some of my own. So you could say I've compared homosexuals to myself and my own sinful tendencies. However, that would not be accurate either, my point was because a person may at some point declare "this is the way I am, I have these impulses" to do whatever, that, does not make the impulse right, moral, or acceptable. Acceptable to God, according to Christian belief's that is.

4a) I have already answered your question. Since you apparently didn't read my answer, I will repeat myself.
There are conditions that people are born with (I can't speak for psychopathology, since I don't know enough about it) that are clearly problems for people. People are born with congenital problems all the time. Let's take one that is not so nasty-sounding. Let's take a congenital heart condition. Does God make people with heart conditions? Yes. Is the condition a problem? Often yes. Should we seek to treat the condition if we can? Usually yes. Why? Because the heart condition is a problem for the child, and we want to help the child by getting rid of the problem if we can.

First of all I couldn't agree that God creates any sickness....

Secondly you seem to misunderstand me altogether. If you desire to live a homosexual lifestyle that is up to you. It's frankly none of my business. I'm simply defending my belief's as a Christian and relating the fact that Christianity does not support fornication of any kind. Not even the kind I'd otherwise like to partake in.

Now let's look at being gay. Does God make people gay? Yes. Is this a problem? No. Should we seek to make people somehow become not gay? No. Why? Because being gay is not a problem.

Your God may "make" gay people. However not the God of the bible. He teaches us if we have these desires (any type of fornication) we are to repent and seek His empowerment to live a Holy Life. It's a process we all struggle with sinful desires of many kinds, homosexual desires are just one of many.

 

[Ohioprof]

It is abundantly clear from scripture that fornication is sin. Fornication, the word Jesus used includes: any kind of illicit sexual act, which includes: Adultery, premarital sex, homosexual sex, and sex with other species. In other words sexual conduct that is outside the realm of man and wife (wife being a female).



Well, that's fine. You are at liberty to disagree. My question is then. Why are you debating this issue with people who believe in the scripture as the inspired word of God?

It doesn't make sense that you'd try and convince a Christian that fornication is acceptable to God when, our text repeatedly says over and over that it is not.



This is not true. From what I've read the studies are very small partially because Lesbians are not inclined to be checked regularly. Regardless "almost never" is not a term I've heard used in any medical report.



It is fornication which spreads the disease not married heterosexual sex but those who go outside the bounds of marriage either the male or the female.



We are discussing fornication which spreads disease in particular we are discussing homosexual sex which absolutely does spread disease more readily then other types when we are referring to anal sex.



No I haven't I was comparing behavioral tendencies. I've even included some of my own. So you could say I've compared homosexuals to myself and my own sinful tendencies. However, that would not be accurate either, my point was because a person may at some point declare "this is the way I am, I have these impulses" to do whatever, that, does not make the impulse right, moral, or acceptable. Acceptable to God, according to Christian belief's that is.



First of all I couldn't agree that God creates any sickness....

Secondly you seem to misunderstand me altogether. If you desire to live a homosexual lifestyle that is up to you. It's frankly none of my business. I'm simply defending my belief's as a Christian and relating the fact that Christianity does not support fornication of any kind. Not even the kind I'd otherwise like to partake in.



Your God may "make" gay people. However not the God of the bible. He teaches us if we have these desires (any type of fornication) we are to repent and seek His empowerment to live a Holy Life. It's a process we all struggle with sinful desires of many kinds, homosexual desires are just one of many.

You cannot claim the name Christian exclusively for yourself or for people who happen to agree with your views of gay people. Many Christians do not regard being gay as a sin. Many Christians do not interpret the Bible as you do. Many Christians reject your assertions about what God supposedly wants.

Yours is not the only Christianity. I consider myself to be a Christian. I do not agree with you on any of the claims you make in this post.

Also, being gay is NOT a "lifestyle."

 

[EnemyPartyII]

We are discussing fornication which spreads disease in particular we are discussing homosexual sex which absolutely does spread disease more readily then other types when we are referring to anal sex.

ah, add another "gay sex=buttsex" theologist to the list.

tsk tsk... such fixation...

But seriously... if anal sex is what you have such a problem with, does that mean tht you approve of other forms of homosexual intimacy?

It is fornication which spreads the disease not married heterosexual sex but those who go outside the bounds of marriage either the male or the female.

Um... well ACTUALLY... the vast majority of female HIV/AIDS patients contracted the virus through having monogomous, heterosexual sex.

you want to keep flogging the "diseases prove God hates gays" horse?

 

[OllieFranz]

You are misrepresenting me all together.

1) Homosexual sex is a sin. According to Scripture

No, it is a violation of the Levitical Holiness Code, which is non-binding on non Jews.

2) Sex that doesn't follow God's guidelines produces disease

I would use the word "spreads" rather than "produces" (the disease does not come from nowhere) but yes wanton sex of any kind is a disease vector.

3) In particular (since is our topic) Homosexual sex produces disease

Here you are wrong. If a couple is clean and faithful, there is no more danger of spreading disease through sex, than of catching somthing from one another by other vectors. It does not matter if the couple is lesbian, gay, or straight.

4) I'm not comparing the homosexual act with any terrible behavior: I'm illustrating a point using your example:

4a) You said you were homosexual because God made you that way. So, I asked you, for instance, what about a psychopath? Isn't he that way because God made him that way?

Simple questions.

What about a man or woman (heterosexual) who likes to sleep around? Did God make them that way?

These are not comparisons of the two activities but examples of people with various proclivities.

Orientation is not a "proclivity. Any more than dark skin is. People used to call dark skin "the mark of Cain" and quote the Bible to justify their prejudices against Blacks.

If your argument has any validity than it should apply to all people and their "natural" urges, shouldn't it? God made them that way?

An "urge" to love is not the same thing as an "urge" to hurt, is it?

 

[OllieFranz]

When I say "natural" I don't mean correct. Either, in the case of homosexuality, or other forms of fornication.

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

I'm a little at a loss, why homosexuals would want to debate on a Christian forum when Christian doctrine expressly forbids fornication.

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

Now, I can understand seeking a solution to the behavior a remedy, counseling but why contend regarding it's normality when, Christianity expressly says fornication is sin.

Because it is normal. Medicine says it is normal. Psychology says it is normal, and Jesus said that gays are born that way.

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

Fornication is something we all need to guard against, especially as it concerns "lust" in our hearts, because it is so available and too easily accessible through the gateway of the internet.

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

Fornication (where physical contact occurs) of all kinds is harmful and spreads disease. This is a well established fact.

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

 

[OllieFranz]

Are you suggesting the prohibition against homosexual sex, isn't because it's wrong but, for some other reason? What other reason?

I'm suggesting that we have to look more closely at the prohibition. What exactly was prohibited and why.

I'll look at the "lying" part of the verse in my next post. (I'll be offline until Monday, so I won't be posting until then. I haven't lost interest or given up.)

I came back today as I promised, expecting to pick up our discussion on Leviticus 18. Why have you changed over the weekend? I thought you wanted "to stay away from the emotionally charged debating and try to stick to factual scriptural information for honest evaluation." So why do I find you attacking people and comparing them to psychopaths and murderers?

 

[JWNEWMAN]

While gay or lesbian sex can be fornication or adultery under the same sorts of conditions that straight sex can be, it is not fornication per se.

According to the scriptures, yes, it is.

Because it is normal. Medicine says it is normal. Psychology says it is normal,and Jesus said that gays are born that way.

Ha! Ha! Thanks, for the laugh, science does not say homosexuality is normal any more then it may say depression is normal. Is it normal for some people to get deeply depressed, yes, it happens all the time. Is it normal in the sense it is good, or, correct, no, it's something that should be corrected. Sin is NORMAL it also, separates us from God, if we don't repent and receive salvation.

HA! HA! HA! HA! Thanks again for more laughs, Jesus does not ever in any way shape or form say homosexuality is normal. Unless, your talking about some Jewish person you know named Yeshua.....

 

[Ohioprof]

I don't think Jesus said anything at all about being gay.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Hey, I'm just going with the flow of the conversation. I didn't realize it was getting emotionally charged. It wasn't on my end, sorry!

Also, I wasn't comparing homosexuality with psychotic behavior. As if to say homosexuals are as bad as psychotics. Homosexuals aren't any worse then any body else in my opinion. They are not worse then me for instance.

If a person is a homosexual I don't have a problem with that. I believe God doesn't want us to get involved in behaviors which are harmful to us. Fornication is one of those behaviors. At least that's how I read scripture and understand it. Homosexual sex comes under that category just like all the rest of the sexual sins.

I always use extreme and dramatic examples in trying to get my point across. Perhaps I should stop, you're not the first person that thought I was being rude. Rudeness was not my intention.

Some of my best friends are dedicated sinners. I love them, I pray for them, they try to get me to sin, I try to get them to repent. Perhaps they pray for me too. I don't hate people that sin. I don't even necessarily hate sin. But, I do believe the scriptures, and work on changing by degrees by committing myself to following those dictates. I'm slow at it, and have found God to be patient.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I don't think Jesus said anything at all about being gay.

He did comment on fornication and the word he used, porneia includes in its definition homosexuality.

1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Again, sorry if I sidetracked the conversation. Also, sorry for using analogies that were offensive to you. I do it all the time. Not only on this topic. Like I said, you're not the first person who's taken offense, so.... my apologies....

 

[OllieFranz]

Did you actually read the definition that you copied and pasted? Fornication is eating meat sacrificed to idols?

Even granted that some of the prophets compared the Israelites who fell into foreign religion to adultresses and harlots, that is not part of the meaning of the word porneia. Neither is homosexuality. It would not be part of the Greek word because it was an accepted part (note necessarily a socially approved part, but an accepted part) of Greek society. Some "Biblical" lexicographer has been doing a lot of editorializing.

 

[OllieFranz]

JWNEWMAN --

If you really want to continue our rational discussion of the only five passages that can be claimed to condemn homosexuality, start a new thread.

 

[OllieFranz]

I don't think Jesus said anything at all about being gay.

Not directly. He taught nothing about being gay. But in the middle of a discussion about marriage and celibacy, he did mention in passing that gays are born that way from their mother's womb.

[BIBLE]Matthew 19:12[/BIBLE]