Sexual sin

[DZoolander]

Well, maybe you can help clarify the idea of "speaking in tongues" to me.

Isn't the whole gist of it something along the lines of...

"The holy spirit knows better what you need than you do. Consequently if you can release control to the holy spirit and let it speak through you - then God will receive your most authentic and needful prayer"

Right?

I guess I have a hard time grasping that. If the holy spirit knows what you need better than you do, and it's actually the Holy Spirit asking/for and conveying the desire for those blessings, why even bother having you as part of the equation? What intrinsic value is there in you simply being the middle man and/or you channeling it? Why not just pray "Holy spirit - do as you wish?" I mean - that's the whole net effect of it - right?

 

[All4Christ]

Well, maybe you can help clarify the idea of "speaking in tongues" to me.

Isn't the whole gist of it something along the lines of...

"The holy spirit knows better what you need than you do. Consequently if you can release control to the holy spirit and let it speak through you - then God will receive your most authentic and needful prayer"

Right?

I guess I have a hard time grasping that. If the holy spirit knows what you need better than you do, and it's actually the Holy Spirit asking/for and conveying the desire for those blessings, why even bother having you as part of the equation? What intrinsic value is there in you simply being the middle man and/or you channeling it? Why not just pray "Holy spirit - do as you wish?" I mean - that's the whole net effect of it - right?

The speaking in tongues that I think is most beneficial is not Corinthians glossolalia (utterance of strange tongues) - it is the same speaking in tongues that occurred after Pentecost when people were able to evangelize to other people who spoke languages they didn't know. That type of tongues has a tangible benefit of extending the gospel to people who otherwise would not be reached. Often, this type of speaking in tongues is ignored - though I don't think it is extremely common. I believe it is given to some when it is most needed - for the purpose of evangelism.

The speaking in tongues with unknown languages (or the tongues of angels) has documentation in scripture which I can't explain away as anything else. I don't think it is nearly as beneficial as the other form. You are supposed to have an interpreter for that in public settings. Others may explain that better than me, as I obviously have not experienced it myself, nor do I think it is necessary for the most authentic prayers to be given to God. Love is the most important gift of the Holy Spirit. To say that the sign of infilling of the Spirit is only shown through the speaking in tongues is fallacy.

Pentecost Glossolalia happened this way: Fifty days after the Resurrection, while the disciples were gathered together, the Holy Spirit descended upon them and they began to speak in other languages. Jews from all over the civilized world who were gathered in Jerusalem for the religious holiday stood in amazement as they heard the disciples preaching in their own particular language and dialect (like in a United Nations Assembly). They understood!

• Corinthian Glossolalia is different. St. Paul, who had founded the Church of Corinth, found it necessary to respond to some of their problems, i.e., division of authority, moral and ethical problems, the eucharist, the issue of death and resurrection and how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operated. In chapter 12, St. Paul lists nine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, i.e., knowledge, wisdom, spirit, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpreting what another says when he speaks in tongues.

• Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation.

In chapter 14, [Paul] says:
"I would like for all of you to speak in strange tongues; but I would rather that you had the gift of proclaiming God's message. For the person who proclaims God's message is of greater value than the one who speaks in strange tongues-unless there is someone who can explain what he says, so the whole Church may be edified. So when I come to you, my brethren, what use will I be to you if I speak in strange tongues? Not a bit, unless I bring to you some revelation from God or some knowledge or some inspired message or some teaching."

That said, my view on Glossolalia is based on St. Paul's words in chapter 14 of the same Epistle, "I thank God that I speak in strange tongues* much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." (verses 18-19) In chapter 13 St. Paul says, "Set your hearts, then, on the more important gifts. Best of all, however, is the following way." Then St. Paul proceeds and shares with his readership the greatest gift of all - Love!

* Paul knew many different 'tongues' as he was well-educated. It is debatable if he was referring to Corinthians glossolalia, Pentecostal tongues, or his own knowledge of foreign languages. Scholars and theologians are divided on this.

 

[Merlin]

The work of Jesus on the cross was obviously not enough.
U have sin separating u from God.
Right?

On the other hand if the work of Jesus was enough then the person that told u u have sin is wrong.So the question is did Jesus remove your sin?
Was his work on the cross enough?

 

[DZoolander]

Ahhh - didn't know there were different kinds.

So basically there's the gibberish kind (or "angelic" that nobody understands) - and then there's a form where someone who (for example) has never spoken or heard Swahili might bust out with it fluently when visiting the Congo in order to evangelize to the natives?

 

[All4Christ]

Ahhh - didn't know there were different kinds.

So basically there's the gibberish kind (or "angelic" that nobody understands) - and then there's a form where someone who (for example) has never spoken or heard Swahili might bust out with it fluently when visiting the Congo in order to evangelize to the natives?

Exactly - except that there is always supposed to be someone who can interpret the angelic kind in public...so at least one person is supposed to understand the Corinthians version as well.

 

[DZoolander]

I'm a cynic - so I've gotta ask...

How exactly does one go about verifying/showing that they understand the angelic version? Isn't the whole idea of angelic tongues that even the speaker doesn't know what they're saying? Do they put two interpreters in separate rooms or something and see if the interpretations match?

 

[All4Christ]

I'm a cynic - so I've gotta ask...

How exactly does one go about verifying/showing that they understand the angelic version? Isn't the whole idea of angelic tongues that even the speaker doesn't know what they're saying? Do they put two interpreters in separate rooms or something and see if the interpretations match?

I tend to be a cynic with you on this one. I try to not let my negative experiences jade me too much, but I always will be on the more skeptical side of this issue. One of the others can defend it, but I don't have much with this to say.

I do believe it is a real thing but focused on way too much and also faked at times. I've seen tongues with interpretations at my childhood church... the interpretations sounded mainly like a variation on a psalm or scripture. Was it real? Maybe; I don't know for sure. I also know at my college that some of the students decided to have a test in chapel. One of them spoke in Hebrew pretending to speak in tongues and someone (not knowing about the 'test') interpreted it totally different than the meaning. Point being - There are times where things are real, and there are times where it is not of God.

To be fair though-I think there is a verse in Corinthians about how to verify it.

 

[LinkH]

ezoolander,
A lot of people who believe in speaking in tongues think of it as a special way to pray better. I don't think that the Bible really supports this view. It might be true. But the verse they used to support it, from Romans 8, says that the Spirit intercedes with 'groanings that cannot be uttered' when we don't know how to pray. But tongues were spoken 'as the Spirit gave them utterance.' Tongues can be uttered.

I Corinthians 14 shows that the one who speaks in tongues speaks mysteries with his spirit, and that he edifies himself. If he prays in tongues, 'he gives thanks well, but the other is not edified.' Paul spent much of the chapter building up a case for the importance of interpreting speaking in tongues instead of just speaking in tongues in church without interpreting.

As for what speaking in tongues is, I don't think real speaking in tongues is just gibberish. I wouldn't assume that everything that passes for speaking in tongues is the genuine article, but I don't see any warnings in the Bible that we should be on the lookout for false speaking in tongues, so I try not to be too judgmental of people's experiences in this regard.

There were some different movements that experienced speaking in tongues throughout history, especially in the 1800's, but it started to become more prominent with the start of the Pentecostal movement. American Pentecostals will often trace the movement to 1901 in Topeka Kansas, and say it spread greatly from the Azusa Street revival in Los Angeles around 1906 to 1908. I have read and heard (an old interview) several references to people going to the meetings at Azusa Street and either hearing their own languages, Russian, Japanese, etc. "in tongues." There was also a book in the early 70s that contained several accounts of this. Sometimes the native speaker could verify the interpretation in English. I've never witnessed that.

I recently read an article by a missionary to Hong Kong and China, Dennis Balcom, in which he wrote of hearing Chinese villagers speak in tongues in English. His daughter and son-in-law are supposed to visit my church here before too long. I heard one of the denominational officials of the Assemblies of God talk about a fellow missionary who preached in tongues when his interpreter wasn't present. I also knew a missionary who had an urge to speak in tongues while doing a crusade among the Cherokee. Someone asked him afterwards how he could speak in Cherokee. He had rebuked some youths who were trying to do some mischief, maybe cut tent cords or light fire crackers under the stage. I think it was fireworks. It scared them off.

I have a degree in Linguistics and I've traveled quite a bit overseas. I've heard speaking in tongues before where I didn't know if the person was speaking in a regional language while praying until the interpretation came, and I realized it was speaking in tongues. I've heard Americans speaking in what to me sounds like foreign languages. Someone on a Facebook forum posted a recording that is allegedly of a Polish girl praying 'in tongues' in English. It's on YouTube somewhere. A German Church of God pastor knows two Europeans who speak in tongues in English. I tried to friend one of the guys. He doesn't know English, but the German pastor says he speaks in tongues in KJV English. He knows of another person who speaks in tongues in English.

As far as interpretations go, I have had a couple of friends who have experienced getting an interpretation to a tongue, but someone else gave the same thing before they could. One was a friend at a Christian school in middle school and the other was a college roommate of mine when I lived in a dorm. I haven't experienced that. But I know something similar happens with prophecies. I don't usually get long prophecies, but I've gotten several dozen words of knowledge. I've had the experience where I got a word of knowledge for someone, but before I could share it, someone prophesied the same thing over the person. I've also gone to one place, someone prophesied over me, and gone elsewhere, and someone else prophesied the same sort of things. It's not like all the prophecies are really generic either. One year, I'd get a few prophecies encouraging me in one area, and another year, get prophecies encouraging me in another area. I've seen this happen to other people, too. Prophecies and words of knowledge can be extremely detailed, to the extent that they are obviously supernatural. They can also say things the person delivering them wouldn't naturally know. One that sticks out in my mind was where a guy got a word of knowledge for some teens he'd just met and prayed that their friend Toby wouldn't drive so wrecklessly. Just about every American teen has a friend whose a reckless driver, but how many have a friend named Toby?

 

[DZoolander]

Oh I'm not saying that I completely disbelieve it. I'm just skeptical - meaning I come into these types of discussions with a degree of suspicion about people that proclaim to have other-worldly types of experiences.

It's entirely possible they do - but I tend to be of the mindset that the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. So, I'd put a hierarchy of "belief" on those types of experiences. Someone that's spouting "angelic" tongues (where it's just coming out like gibberish) which can only be interpreted/understood by one or two "gifted" listeners/interpreters - ehhh - I just have a hard time with that. I think most likely it really is gibberish - and the "interpreter" is either deliberately pulling a fast one in order to increase their stature in the church...or else they've convinced themselves (erroneously) that they actually can interpret that nonsense. They're being sincere - but since the validity of their interpretations cannot be checked - it's just a kind of delusional behavior.

Speaking in "real" tongues (meaning in a real language) - well that would be more believable. To a degree - you'd have to suspend disbelief about it just being staged...which could be possible. But - at least it's something.

To be honest - part of my skepticism comes from the simple belief that I don't think God involves Himself in our day to day lives in that manner. Most of the things that I've come across in life support that belief - that we're basically on our own to make the world as good/bad as we see fit. The world is our playground - to make or break.

I've come across plenty of people who thought otherwise - and thought God had a direct hand in things. Most of them I don't know enough about their individual circumstances to argue either way...but there are a couple that I *do* know...where what they believe simply doesn't jive with reality.

One person that comes to mind is the mother of an old friend of mine from growing up. They really didn't have any money when we were kids - and were always coming up short on things. They didn't have enough money for their sons to be involved in extra-curricular things...they often didn't have enough money to send them on field trips/to participate in sports/etc. But they were too proud to accept charity.

I remember a couple of times my folks and a few others from the church rigging raffles at events so that they would win. That was their way of giving charity to those that would not accept it. Everyone involved in the raffle knew what was going on - but my buddy's family didn't.

To this day - 30 years later - their mom still talks about how God answered their prayers with that money at the times when they most needed it...so their sons would not be excluded from sports/from activities/etc. She'll still talk about how hard she prayed - and how God answered her prayers. Of course I'm never gonna say anything - but from my point of view - God had very little to do with it. It was a choice my parents and the other parents in the congregation made in order to help them because they cared for them. It was a choice based upon human compassion and goodness - and caring for their fellow man.

I think a lot of things in life are like that.

My inclination when people that I don't know as well tell me stories about prayer/etc is to believe that there might be something more akin to what I explained above that *actually* transpired...but...there's always the possibility that I'm wrong...lol It is where my mind goes, though.

 

[LinkH]

EZoolander,

As far as the idea of God just giving us the earth as a playground and not intervening, that sounds kind of like Deism. Thomas Jefferson believed that way, at least for parts of his life. But you can see the world a bit like that and still believe God does miracles. A lot of Calvinists tend to be determinists and think that God preordained all or most details. Many Christians who aren't Calvinists kind of think God set up the rules and leaves a lot of things to us. There are a lot of things God commits into our hands. But we can pray, and see God answer our prayers. We can believe God's word and act in faith, and God can do great things through us.

If that family that was too proud to accept charity, it could be God did answer their prayers through the church raffle. God can use other people and mundane things. What's really cool is when no one knows your needs, you pray, and God fulfills them specifically.

When I moved to an expensive place for grad school, after getting a masters degree on the mainland, I knew I'd be needing money. I didn't have any more room in the suit case and I had to fly the whole family there and get everything on the plane. The sole of my shoes broke, so that my feet would slant in some unhealthy way as I was moving. So I prayed for God to let me find some new or almost brand new shoes for next to nothing at a thrift store. Next door to the condo where we were staying in Honolulu, there was a community center that had a thrift store open certain days. One day, we weren't apartment shopping, so I decided to check that store out and go collect those shoes I'd prayed for.

I went to the gate outside the store and I saw a box out there with some white, new-looking running shoes. The closer I got, the newer they looked. I thought, there are the shoes I prayed for. I just wanted to check and make sure they were 10 and 1/2s. And of course, they were. They charge a lot for used stuff where I was living. The lady inside said that normally they would be $14 (or maybe she said $18), but they were having a sale and she was selling them for $2. The guy who'd brought them in had said he'd tried them once. He brought two pairs. The other one still had the tags. They looked brand new.

It was a little bit of encouragement for me of how the Lord would provide for me and my family financially.

I posted some time ago about this time when I prayed for the Lord to speak to my wife about this long list of things, 7 or so things. She'd just told me how she'd gotten a word of knowledge for a woman in a Bible study group, and something the woman had said had confirmed it. I laid out my case from scripture to the Lord as to why it was His will that my wife change in those areas, and that if we asked anything according to His will He'd do it. It was one of those times when I prayed in faith and really had a confidence about it when I prayed. But I was still blown away when my wife asked me to sit down next to her on the coach and told me when she was at this Bible study thing she went to, that the Lord had spoken to her about some things. Then she started going down my prayer list, in much more detail than I'd even thought of when I'd prayed. I'd even prayed she'd see how certain aspects of what she'd seen in her dad and step-mom's relationship when she was raised had effected her. She even mentioned that. A few weeks later, she told me the Lord had spoken to her about the other two things on my list. I posted an elaborate, detailed message on it several years ago when I first started on the married couples section. That post might be deemed 'off topic' of it because of one of the prayer points.

 

[Dave-W]

I recently read an article by a missionary to Hong Kong and China, Dennis Balcom, in which he wrote of hearing Chinese villagers speak in tongues in English.

Derek Prince was at a pentecostal gathering in Israel in the late 1960s and a woman started singing in tongues. He recognized the words as coming from the KJV word for word: (he later found out she understood no English whatsoever)

Revelation 15:3 (KJV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord?

It became a popular chorus in the early and mid 70s in charismatic circles. Here it is as recorded on one of Paul Wilbur's early albums. (he updated the language somewhat)

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbxc6odPCCw

 

[DZoolander]

EZoolander,

As far as the idea of God just giving us the earth as a playground and not intervening, that sounds kind of like Deism. Thomas Jefferson believed that way, at least for parts of his life. But you can see the world a bit like that and still believe God does miracles. A lot of Calvinists tend to be determinists and think that God preordained all or most details. Many Christians who aren't Calvinists kind of think God set up the rules and leaves a lot of things to us. There are a lot of things God commits into our hands. But we can pray, and see God answer our prayers. We can believe God's word and act in faith, and God can do great things through us.

If that family that was too proud to accept charity, it could be God did answer their prayers through the church raffle. God can use other people and mundane things. What's really cool is when no one knows your needs, you pray, and God fulfills them specifically.

That's pretty cool about your experiences. Like I said - I'm not going to take the position that "God doesn't answer prayers" or that "prayer is meaningless"/etc - because I simply don't know and can't say with any degree of certainty. I just have hunches - and what seems most reasonable to me in a general sense.

You're right that it sounds a lot like Deism - because as I've gotten older - I've come to be more comfortable with my deist leanings/labeling myself that way. Thomas Jefferson mirrors a lot of my beliefs about God/Religion/etc - and I admire his perspectives on things.

What concerns me, though, about putting so much into the "hands of God" and out of man's hands (which is where I believe they lay a HUGE percentage of the time) are the byproducts of that belief.

For example - my friend's family. Let's say that God did use my parents and the other folks in the congregation as a means to answer a prayer. What does that then say about those who prayed equally hard in other congregations and didn't have their prayers answered? They weren't righteous enough? They had unresolved sin that God was punishing them for or why God was ignoring their pleas?

There's a lot of that kind of nonsense going around nowadays - with things like the prosperity gospel/etc...where people are made to feel that their lack of success (or continued illness/or whatever may be) is a consequence of some punishment God is bestowing upon them due to some shortcoming in their character/lives/etc.

I not only believe that to be false - but I also think it causes a lot of angst/divisive behavior within churches.

Going back to my friend's mom and why her "prayers were answered" - and then comparing it against someone else whose prayers weren't...instead of trying to figure out why God might have bestowed gifts upon my friend's mom and not another (which usually involves finding fault in the other) - it makes far more sense to me (and it seems far more likely to be true) to simply say "My friend's mom had a better luck of the draw by being surrounded by people that cared enough to work around her quirks. Clearly the other person didn't."

 

[Dave-W]

Going back to my friend's mom and why her "prayers were answered" - and then comparing it against someone else whose prayers weren't...instead of trying to figure out why God might have bestowed gifts upon my friend's mom and not another (which usually involves finding fault in the other) - it makes far more sense to me (and it seems far more likely to be true) to simply say "My friend's mom had a better luck of the draw by being surrounded by people that cared enough to work around her quirks. Clearly the other person didn't."

Both scenarios leave God and His choice in each individual situation out of the equation.