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Sexual Purity

Do you consider sexual purity important?

  • I am a Christian, and consider it an important issue

  • I'm a Christian, and don't consider it an important issue

  • I'm of a different religion, and consider it an important issue

  • I'm of a different religion, and don't consider it an important issue

  • I'm not religious, and consider it an important issue

  • I'm not religious, and don't consider it an important issue

  • I am undecided at this time

  • I have a view not expressed in the poll


Results are only viewable after voting.

feral

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A while back, we had a lot of discussions on this forum about sexual purity, abstinence and sex ed. I was wondering how everyone feels about the idea of sexual purity such as presented by organizations like True Love Waits and various books like "And the Bride Wore White" & "I Kissed Dating Goodbye".

What does it mean to be sexually pure? Is it being a virgin, waiting until marriage, or remaining monogamous? Does it just have a physical definition or do your opinions, experiences and thoughts make you sexually pure or impure? Can someone who has had sex before marriage ever be pure? Is a person who is technically a virgin but who dresses seductively or pursues pornography be 'pure'?

Is sexual purity important anymore? Why or why not? Our culture encourages us to rush out and have sex with everyone we find physically attractive. Should we? Does it matter or is it a non-issue?

How can the ideas behind purity be taught, or should we just forget about it?
 

transientlife

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How about "I'm a Christian, and undecided"?

I would think ideal purity would be virginity until marriage.
I think you bring up a very good point on the wavering conditions of purity. Some may believe one way, some may believe another and you have a whole multitude of variations on the spectrum.

I'd say we shouldn't go out and have sex with everyone we're attracted to, moreso for health and emotional reasons than religious.
 
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flicka

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I have mixed feelings about this whole issue. It is such a personal thing and, in the big picture, does not effect anyone but the person them self (I'm not getting into the possibility of pregnancy or disease since that is not the point of the OP). The bottom line is that if you believe it's important than it is, otherwise it's a non issue IMO.
 
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T

The Bellman

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feral said:
Is sexual purity important anymore?
It's becoming less and less so, as orthodox religions (mainly Yahwistic) lose their hold.

feral said:
Our culture encourages us to rush out and have sex with everyone we find physically attractive.
It does? Hmm...that must be a different society than the one in which I live.

feral said:
Should we? Does it matter or is it a non-issue?
No, we shouldn't, no, it doesn't, and yes, it is.

feral said:
How can the ideas behind purity be taught, or should we just forget about it?
Forget it. The world would be far better off.

Even calling it "purity" is a loaded term, as if not being a virgin somehow makes one "spoiled". It doesn't. A non-virgin can, for example, be as monogamous (or non-monogamous) as a virgin. The sooner everyone realises that it's a hang over from our ancestral origins, the better.

To examine this issue fully, one must look more widely than one's local environment. Sexual purity (by which I mean chastity until marriage, particularly female chastitiy, and I think that's what the majority of posters will mean by it) is very much a cultural thing - it is desired in widely varying degrees by various cultures. In virtually nowhere in the world is male sexual purity highly desirable. Females, on the other hand, are another question. For example, in parts of Japan it is EXTREMELY desirable, to the point where some doctors are now making a good living creating artificial hymens to restore 'virginity' to women, so they can be deflowered on their wedding night (to the great relief of their husbands, who are none the wiser). Yet in Sweden, surveys reveal that sexual purity is very UNimportant to the vast majority.

Interestingly enough, there's no hard-and-fast correlation about what kind of society is likely to value female sexual purity - except one. Overwhelmingly, in every society ever studied, the importance of sexual purity in women (ie., new brides) is inversely proportional to the economic independence of women. In other words, the more economically independent women are in a society, the less importance that society will place on women being sexually pure at marriage. You may well point out that in (for example) America today, women are significantly economically independent, yet many Americans value sexual purity in women. You would be right...and I would point out that those Americans that value sexual purity in women are predominantly christian (with some Jews and Muslims thrown in), who get that ethic (that female sexual purity is desirable) from the OT Jewish society...one in which women were NOT economically independent. As in all religions, their religion gave 'sacred' status to that which their society already though of as important - sexual purity of women.

One also has to look at the evolutionary origins of the desire for sexual purity in women. This desire has evolved in men for millenia; it is difficult for some to shake off that genetic programming. In addition, the bolstering of the evolutionary need for sexual purity in women by many religious traditions helps preserve that need, as many posts in this and other threads on this forum demonstrate.

Well, after that brief lecture, I'll get off my soap box. Sorry if I bored you.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Orthodox Judaism takes a very positive view of both procreational and recreational sexual relations between a husband and wife, in the context of a loving marriage and as per the Torah's laws on "family purity." Lemme explain.

From Exodus 21:10, our Sages teach that a Jewish husband owes his wife three things: food, clothing & sexual relations. Indeed, the Jewish view of sex is that it is the wife's right & the husband's obligation to meet that right and NOT the other way 'round. Our Sages teach that when a husband & wife unite in the act of love, the Divine Presence rests upon them. Recreational sex can, and should be, one of the ways that a husband & wife become closer to each other (figuratively; the literal is obvious) & deepen their mutual love and respect for each other (the respect part is crucial). Thus, it is a positive Torah precept even for a couple which cannot bring their own biological children into the world (i.e., one or both partners are infertile) to have sexual relations (such as described above) on a regular basis. The positive Torah precept to procreate is something else.

Ecclesiastes 3:5 speaks of, “A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing.” Our Sages teach that King Solomon is referring to the Torah's concept of “family purity.” In short (based on Leviticus 15:28, among other verses), with the onset of a wife's period, she & her husband immediately cease not only sexual relations, but all physical contact whatsoever. For both the 5-days (5 days is the minimum) of her menstrual flow and (as per Leviticus 15:28) for seven continuously clean days thereafter, she & her husband refrain from any & all physical contact and should take care not to be in a state of undress in each other's presence. After nightfall, after the 7 day period is over, the wife goes to a mikveh (a specially made, ritual bath/pool) and, after completely disrobing & taking off all jewelery, immerses herself while saying the following blessing: “Praised are You, Lord our God, King of All Creation, who has sanctified us with His precepts and commanded us regarding immersion.” She immerses herself in the presence of a woman attendant who makes sure that even her hair is under the surface of the water. When she goes home, she & her husband may resume physical contact & sexual relations until her next period.

Our Sages teach that if a very poor community has enough money for either a Torah scroll, a synagogue or a mikveh, it must use the money to build a mikveh. At least some of the water in the mikveh MUST be natural, i.e, rainwater, melted snow, etc. (Technically, a woman can immerse herself in any natural body of water but she she MUST be 100% naked & the immersion can ONLY take place after dark, this is generally impractical in the extreme. Thus, 99.99999% of woman regularly use a proper, kosher mikveh (i.e. one that was built, and is maintained, under orthodox rabbinical supervision.) A bride goes to the mikveh for the first time in her life on the night before the wedding.

By obeying the Torah's relevant precepts on this matter, we take the sexual act and invest it with sanctity and make it holy (in much the same way that keeping kosher, saying the blessings before & after meals, etc. invest the act of eating with sanctity and make it holy). Speaking from direct, personal experience, this system is absolutely marvelous. First of all, it teaches the husband that his wife's body is not his toy. It helps teach him restraint (do we control our passions and appetites or do they control us?) and respect for his wife as a woman & a person. It helps prevent a couple from becoming bored with each other over time. It helps prevent this most unique and intimate form of interpersonal communication (so unique and intimate that the Torah reserves it for a husband and wife ONLY; we infer the Biblical ban on pre-marital sex from the first clause of Deuteronomy 23:18 and from Leviticus 18:3) from becoming routine, mundane, humdrum, trite, etc. It is like having a mini-honeymoon every month throughout their life together & helps ensure that this aspect of a married couple's relationship is fresh and exciting, always. It helps, no, forces, a couple to, during the 12 days' time when they may have no contact, develop ways other than the physical for expressing their love & respect for each other; if sex is the major glue keeping a couple together, that marriage is in trouble.

Animals copulate; only human beings can make love. If a husband and wife do not treat each other with constant respect and devotion, then we become no better than animals that are driven and ruled by their urges & impulses. To quote Nathan David, we believe that our approach to sexuality teaches & encourages, "respect, maturity, and responsibility."

There's a story that a rabbi & his wife were just getting into bed one Friday night when the rabbi heard a strange noise. He looked around & found one of his students hiding under the bed. Enraged, the rabbi put on his shorts, yanked the student out from under the bed, clamped him in a headlock & began dragging toward the door. “What were you doing under our bed?” the rabbi cried. "I'm supposed to learn Torah from you," the student replied. “So??!!” the Rabbi asked. “Well,” replied the student, “what you and your wife were about to do is Torah.” The rabbi then did two things. He congratulated his student on being 100% correct...and then chucked him out.

On a more...mechanical...note, technically, a husband & wife can do pretty much whatever they like together. However, a husband and wife should always keep Leviticus 19:2 in mind, “Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel and say unto them: 'You shall be holy; for I the Lord your God am holy.” Even during sexual relations, especially during sexual relations, a couple must keep in mind this positive injunction to be holy.

Sexual relations outside of marriage are strongly frowned upon and not permitted. (Orthodox) Judaism believes that homosexual, lesbian, bestial and non-consensual heterosexual acts (even in the context of marriage) are inherently sinful at all times and in every context.

My impression is that the popular media in the US (and Israel, where I've been living for 17.5 years) offers a very skewed and warped view of sexuality in that it divests this sacred act of its inherent holiness, and demeans, cheapens, trivializes it, and changes it into something mundane and trite. It is also horribly demeaning to women & exhibits them as one would a side of beef; it portrays women not as people but as the sum of certain body parts. (Please! I do not advocate censorship!!! What I don't like, I don't watch & don't let my children watch.) Pornography takes the foregoing to the extreme. (Orthodox) Judaism believes that our inherent nobility, worth & beauty as people are not predicated on the subjective attractiveness of our bodies or parts thereof.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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- DRA -

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It seems to be rather clear from a Christian perspective what sexual purity is all about. To avoid fornication or sexual immorality (the Greek word porneia), a man is to have his own wife, a woman her own husband, and the unmarried and widowed are to marry, rather than resort to sex outside of marriage. (1 Corinthians 6:18; 7:1-9; Hebrews 13:4)

Both the consequences and the cure for fornication is given in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

And, just for clarification - - Jesus taught that marriage is between a man and a woman - - NOT between two men - - NOT between two women (Matt. 19:4-6).
 
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Rev. Smith

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As others note, sexual purity is monogomy in marrage. The problem is not in challenging the clear teaching, its in the importance we ascribe to it. Christ taught that the commandments were to be kept, and that we Love God, and one another - "By this shall you know them".

One who makes sex the center of their life is not pleaseing God, but neither is the most chaste who fails in love of God or Man. As Christians we often seem to have sex on the brain, rather than worry about other peopl's sexual habits - I find that if we help them attain spiritual peace and understanding, they choose to be chaste - because it goes with a God centered life.
 
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seebs

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The danger here is that there are many things you could do even within a monogamous marriage which are not particularly pure... I think an overly legalistic attempt to define purity in specific terms tends to result in oversights, such as the absolutely terrifying example of people arguing that there's no such thing as rape within a marriage, because rape is sexually immoral and all sex within a marriage is necessarily morally acceptable, because that's the "definition" of morally acceptable sex.
 
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Rev. Smith

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such as the absolutely terrifying example of people arguing that there's no such thing as rape within a marriage, because rape is sexually immoral and all sex within a marriage is necessarily morally acceptable, because that's the "definition" of morally acceptable sex.


At the risk of being overly legalistic, rape within marrage in a grave sin, not because it it was "sex", but becuase the husband has failed in two essential duties, to love his wife as he does himself, and in failing the specific command to honor our wives. Just as there may be danger in being overly legalistic - there is danger in taking too braod a view. The argument you state (I know it is not yours) is a non-starter, rape is never chaste, not because it is a type of sex - because it is a type of violence.
 
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Risen Tree

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The Bellman said:
Overwhelmingly, in every society ever studied, the importance of sexual purity in women (ie., new brides) is inversely proportional to the economic independence of women. In other words, the more economically independent women are in a society, the less importance that society will place on women being sexually pure at marriage.
OK, I'll bite. Where are all these studies?
 
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seebs

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Theresa said:
What? I missed something, what do you mean seebs? Who is excluding rape?

The view is that sex is two-fold, for pleasure and procreation. Rape takes away the pleasure of one of the spouses.

Many people have excluded intramarital rape from the list of sexual immorality, because they've gotten so attached to the "sexual immorality means sex outside of marriage" idea that they don't consider the problems this leaves them with...
 
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flicka

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seebs said:
Many people have excluded intramarital rape from the list of sexual immorality, because they've gotten so attached to the "sexual immorality means sex outside of marriage" idea that they don't consider the problems this leaves them with...

That also means we must question what else should be considered sexually immoral within marriage. Positions? Paraphernalia? It's a whole can of worms and everyone is going to have their own opinions on it all. Can you be sexually impure within marriage?
 
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