Sex IS a need, for some.

[hijklmnop]

Just because you need things from your spouse doesn't mean you're selfish. It becomes selfish when all you focus on are those needs. Even if my husband doesn't love me or respect me, I should still love and respect him.

And yet, if your husband doesn't show you love or respect, "should" you still have sex with him? Or do you "need" to be loved and respected by him in general in order for him to expect that? I personally do. We are to love others AS we love ourselves....not instead of ourselves. Our selves count as people worthy of love and respect. If the dynamic in our relationship is such that sex feels demeaning, I believe that I am allowed to retain some self-respect by being honest about and respecting my own feelings and boundaries. I don't feel selfish about that, and I would respect my h if he felt the same way. So if I'm reading your post correctly, then if I "need" honesty, trust, respect, and affection from my spouse in order to have sex with him without feeling used, that shouldn't be selfish. Yet, if all he focused on was the fact that his need of "enough" sex isn't being met and is willing to divorce me over that and that alone, wouldn't that be selfish by your reasoning?

Two clarifications:
1. I'm not without empathy for people whose sex life is barren for months and years on end and they don't know why and can't do anything about it. I think that's awful and I don't know what I'd do in that situation if I was in it, so I have no opinion on "shoulds".

2. I'm not saying boo-hiss about sex as some people seem to think. For the umpteenth time...sex is a great part of marriage. I'm simply saying that for me, I do not believe for a second that I'm required to have sex in a broken and dysfunctional relationship, or that doing so would be likely to solve any problems. In fact, I believe that the results of that (focusing on and insisting upon sex regardless of other problems) can be truly devastating.

 

[JaneFW]

I meant this forum as a whole. Usually sex discussions are very, very disheartening because of the bitterness encompassed in some posts.

I think you misunderstood what was meant by marriage being about giving. Just because my focus is on what I do for my husband doesn't mean there aren't still things I need from him as well. I still need honesty, communication, love...I need him to go to work so our bills can be provided for. Just because you need things from your spouse doesn't mean you're selfish. It becomes selfish when all you focus on are those needs. Even if my husband doesn't love me or respect me, I should still love and respect him.

Not quite.

Then...you must have missed a big part of the thread. For my marriage it's not just my need, sex is also a need for my husband. It's an even stronger need for him than for me, so what you have perceived is not correct. Moreover, it's not really individual need as it is relational need. Both spouses benefit when sex is present and, unless neither spouse cares for sex, when it is absent it usually means only one spouse benefits. That's really what is selfish.

Then no one should need trust or honesty or love or communication or friendship from their spouse either.

...It has been said countless times that sex is not something that is to be given every single time one spouse wants sex.

I don't know. Why is respect, trust, honor and love different?

Marriage isn't about what we get, it's about what we give. That's why our vows are, "I promise to love, honor and cherish" not "I expect you to love, honor and cherish". However, we do need love in a marriage, right? We need trust, respect, honesty, communication, friendship. Is it selfish to need those things? No, because both spouses benefit from those things when they are present in the relationship. It's the same with sex.

The need isn't selfish. It's when one's life is entirely focused on their needs only when things become selfish.

This thread isn't about respect, trust, honor, love - it's about the need for sex, so none of this really applies.

You see, this is why it's never going to be understood. I don't need to be lectured about how two spouses benefit from sex. I really don't. I have known that stuff for more years than I can count. But when you don't have that, then it's not going to make any darn difference whatsoever whether one spouse makes sex the #1 top priority need of their life, because the other one does not. Anyone who says - then your marriage has failed, that spouse is a failure, that marriage is over, might as well call it quits - doesn't have a clue what the Bible is about. What are Christians supposed to be doing? Modeling Christ perhaps. Did Christ ever give up on us and walk away? Did He call us failures when we were rolling in our sin? Did he turn His back and divorce us? Then I do not get this obsession with throwing away something because it's not exactly the way that people want it to be. I find that horrendous. I see no difference between divorcing a spouse that is physically disabled and divorcing a spouse that is .. relationally?? (I don't know what to call it!) disabled.

So sex is your top priority/main need. Great. I'm happy for you. (General comment.) But it's not the case for everyone, obviously. And when it's not, then that's okay too.

The thing that brought me back into this thread was that business about divorce being okay in this instance, and the marriage "fail" thing. It's been mentioned several times in this thread by several people, and it's not their place to call a marriage a "failure" on the basis of sex.

 

[chaz345]

I'm not going to pull that thread back up to prove my point, and expecting "nothing" may be an exaggeration, but it was said several times that selflessness was the goal - or words to that effect. I will have to go and look at exactly what was said!

And in terms of the needs point, there is a complete and total difference between saying, in a general conversation "sex is a need" and an individual in a marriage saying "you need to meet my need for sex". Those two statements are, while maybe talking about the same action, completely and totally different as relates to being selfish or not.

But what people say relates to what they think, and what people say and think tends to play out in their marriage - either that or they are hypocritical. I'm not saying that anyone is going home saying "you need to meet my need for sex", but don't tell me that the other spouse is unaware that this expectation exists, because I find it hard to believe.[/quote]


The expectation exists, of course. Why shouldn't it, it's Biblical. But that still doesn't mean that saying here in a general conversation "sex is a need" has anything at all to do with a self oriented focus when it comes to one's own marriage.

And on the first point, yes selflessness IS the goal. All that was meant in that thread, at least by me, was that it is better to put more focus on what one brings in rather than on what one gets out. That's a simple fact, it is better. Never said it was wrong to have any expectations as to what one gets out. I may have said something about not basing one's happiness or satisfaction on wether or not what one takes out meets one's expectations, but still that's a completely different thing, completely and totally different than saying that it's wrong to expect anything out.

 

[chaz345]

I'm not going to pull that thread back up to prove my point, .

Good because trying to prove one's point would be debate and we're not supposed to do that.

 

[hijklmnop]

"Emotions and sex SHOULD go hand in hand, and God made natural consequences to our behaviours for good reason. "

Disagree, I believe that MARRIAGE and SEX go hand in hand. It bothers me that people want to split those two up as if they CAN be split up. I hear over and over "Well if my spouse does xyz, or doesn't do xyz then I'm not going to have sex". To justify your thinking just put then I'm divorcing them (where it's underlined). You can't have it two ways, kinda like being a little bit pregnant. If you can't work it out then leave! Don't do it half way--having legal marriage certificate but not LIVING that way. Hypocrisy!

I don't think it's appropriate to basically yell, "Hypocrisy!" at others on the board. Or tell people to divorce because they're not having sex. That's not anybody's call to make but the people in the marriage. What about those who are trying to work it out but cannot emotionally bring themselves to that level of intimacy? Forgo all patience and just get a divorce? Soooo black-and-white. I don't like seeing having a legal marriage certificate as some kind of a "do this or else" tool. It's supposed to be a beautiful thing!

 

[hijklmnop]

I agree with Jane. Sex is a PART of marriage. It is not the be-all-end-all. Telling people their marriage has failed and they should get a divorce because they're not having sex actually equates marriage WITH sex.

 

[JaneFW]

Good because trying to prove one's point would be debate and we're not supposed to do that.

Actually the administrators were undecided on that point, so we will have to wait and see what they decide.

 

[JaneFW]

I agree with Jane. Sex is a PART of marriage. It is not the be-all-end-all. Telling people their marriage has failed and they should get a divorce because they're not having sex actually equates marriage WITH sex.

Yep.

And as important as adultery. So, sex with the wrong person or little/no sex are equal? Interesting concept. But I fail to see the Biblical backup for that argument.

 

[Created2Write]

And yet, if your husband doesn't show you love or respect, "should" you still have sex with him?

In my marriage sex is not independent of love and respect. IOW, sex is as much a result of respect and love as love and respect are results of sex.

Or do you "need" to be loved and respected by him in general in order for him to expect that?

I need to feel loved and respected to have sex just as much as I need sex to feel love and respected. Sex is not independent from love, respect, trust, communication, honesty, friendship, etc. It is just as much a result of those things as those things are a result of sex.

I personally do. We are to love others AS we love ourselves....not instead of ourselves. Our selves count as people worthy of love and respect. If the dynamic in our relationship is such that sex feels demeaning, I believe that I am allowed to retain some self-respect by being honest about and respecting my own feelings and boundaries. I don't feel selfish about that, and I would respect my h if he felt the same way. So if I'm reading your post correctly, then if I "need" honesty, trust, respect, and affection from my spouse in order to have sex with him without feeling used, that shouldn't be selfish.

That's your own call. I, personally, don't understand it because my marriage is very different, but it's your marriage so it's your call.

Yet, if all he focused on was the fact that his need of "enough" sex isn't being met and is willing to divorce me over that and that alone, wouldn't that be selfish by your reasoning?

If that's all he was focusing on, then yes, that would be selfish.

Two clarifications:
1. I'm not without empathy for people whose sex life is barren for months and years on end and they don't know why and can't do anything about it. I think that's awful and I don't know what I'd do in that situation if I was in it, so I have no opinion on "shoulds".

2. I'm not saying boo-hiss about sex as some people seem to think. For the umpteenth time...sex is a great part of marriage. I'm simply saying that for me, I do not believe for a second that I'm required to have sex in a broken and dysfunctional relationship, or that doing so would be likely to solve any problems. In fact, I believe that the results of that (focusing on and insisting upon sex regardless of other problems) can be truly devastating.

No one has said you aren't entitled to your opinion, or that you specifically should do anything.

 

[hijklmnop]

I understand where you are coming from C2W. We obviously differ but I do get it.

 

[Created2Write]

This thread isn't about respect, trust, honor, love - it's about the need for sex, so none of this really applies.

LOL. It was in response to a question you asked! LOL.

You see, this is why it's never going to be understood. I don't need to be lectured about how two spouses benefit from sex. I really don't.

I wasn't lecturing, I was answering your question.

I have known that stuff for more years than I can count. But when you don't have that, then it's not going to make any darn difference whatsoever whether one spouse makes sex the #1 top priority need of their life, because the other one does not. Anyone who says - then your marriage has failed, that spouse is a failure, that marriage is over, might as well call it quits - doesn't have a clue what the Bible is about.

Firstly, you're coming across as very judgmental. No one here has said anything about your marriage. If you can't handle the personal opinions of others on this subject, perhaps this is a subject you shouldn't post in?

What are Christians supposed to be doing? Modeling Christ perhaps. Did Christ ever give up on us and walk away? Did He call us failures when we were rolling in our sin? Did he turn His back and divorce us? Then I do not get this obsession with throwing away something because it's not exactly the way that people want it to be. I find that horrendous. I see no difference between divorcing a spouse that is physically disabled and divorcing a spouse that is .. relationally?? (I don't know what to call it!) disabled.

Only one person here has really advocated divorcing over sex. No one else has.

So sex is your top priority/main need. Great. I'm happy for you. (General comment.) But it's not the case for everyone, obviously. And when it's not, then that's okay too.

No one has said it isn't, so I'm not sure what the hostility is for...

The thing that brought me back into this thread was that business about divorce being okay in this instance, and the marriage "fail" thing. It's been mentioned several times in this thread by several people, and it's not their place to call a marriage a "failure" on the basis of sex.

No one has called anyone's marriage a failure, and only one person has advocated divorcing over sex.

 

[roseread]

Nobody should be telling others that they may divorce because the sex isn't what they want it to be. What happened to Matthew 5:32 or 19:9 which says no divorce "except for adultery". Please would someone show me where in the Bible it says that you can divorce because sex is not up to par, because I for sure can't find it. I have read in this thread at least two or three times that where the sex isn't up to par, the marriage has "failed". People have no right to make this kind of judgement on a marriage that is not their own marriage.

I guess I'm bad Christian, but I'm at the point where I really don't care about the bible.

If the only reason for divorce is adultery, then what about people in abusive relationships/ should someone stay if their life is in danger? OR should they just seperate for safety sake and not divorce? And then the victim will never have the chance to remarry?

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time with this no divorice thing.

 

[chaz345]

I guess I'm bad Christian, but I'm at the point where I really don't care about the bible.

If the only reason for divorce is adultery, then what about people in abusive relationships/ should someone stay if their life is in danger? OR should they just seperate for safety sake and not divorce? And then the victim will never have the chance to remarry?

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time with this no divorice thing.

Strictly speaking no abuse isn't reason for divorce. But in the case of separating not only would the victim never have the chance to remarry, the abuser wouldn't either. And since a good case can be made that an abuser is an unbeliever, then the "let the unbeliever depart" verse would apply if they choose to divorce.

Here's the thing though. We don't get to pick and choose when it comes to instructions in the Bible. That something is uncomfortable or doesn't feel good, doesn't mean we get to reject it. Chances are, if something is really really uncomfortable, then either we've got the meaning wrong or are acting counter to God's will anyway.

 

[JaneFW]

Firstly, you're coming across as very judgmental. No one here has said anything about your marriage. If you can't handle the personal opinions of others on this subject, perhaps this is a subject you shouldn't post in?

Only one person here has really advocated divorcing over sex. No one else has.

No one has said it isn't, so I'm not sure what the hostility is for...

No one has called anyone's marriage a failure, and only one person has advocated divorcing over sex.

I never said "my marriage" or "me" at any point whatsoever, so I don't know why it would be made to be about my marriage??? I generalized about "spouses", not me and my husband. And thanks for the advice, but if I decide I can't post here, I will decide that for myself.

Actually, several people have referred to failed marriages, how they could not cope and would be crushed, although a lot of editing has been done, and at least two people a couple of pages ago referred to it being an empty marriage, and they should release the other person blah blah.

Anyway, it's out there, and it's a part of what's being said, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

[Created2Write]

I never said "my marriage" or "me" at any point whatsoever, so I don't know why it would be made to be about my marriage??? I generalized about "spouses", not me and my husband. And thanks for the advice, but if I decide I can't post here, I will decide that for myself.

Respecting others is all I ask. You don't have to agree, but it's not helpful in conversations to be riled and upset when posting. You have often said this to me when we have disagreed. Cooling off before responding helps a great deal and avoids rule violations.

Actually, several people have referred to failed marriages, how they could not cope and would be crushed, although a lot of editing has been done, and at least two people a couple of pages ago referred to it being an empty marriage, and they should release the other person blah blah.

So two people have mentioned divorce specifically. No one else has advocated it though. The point was that sex was a need to them. So of course the marriage would be empty without it. A marriage would be empty without love, right? That's not the same as saying the marriage has failed, though.

Anyway, it's out there, and it's a part of what's being said, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I don't think the things were meant in the way you may have perceived them. So, saying that they "have no clue what the Bible is about" is incredibly uncalled for and unnecessary. Even if it's what you think, it doesn't mean it should be said. No one has questioned your understanding of the Bible. There's no need to questions someone elses. And, actually, that is a rule violation.

 

[Conservativation]

I guess I'm bad Christian, but I'm at the point where I really don't care about the bible.

If the only reason for divorce is adultery, then what about people in abusive relationships/ should someone stay if their life is in danger? OR should they just seperate for safety sake and not divorce? And then the victim will never have the chance to remarry?

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time with this no divorice thing.

Take it up with a higher power than folks here. I recommend these days letting folks sort theor own beliefs on divorce, just dont go into it in any way that harms any 3rd party, kids or even society as a whole....then no one cares, otherwise its everyones business.

 

[JaneFW]

Respecting others is all I ask. You don't have to agree, but it's not helpful in conversations to be riled and upset when posting. You have often said this to me when we have disagreed. Cooling off before responding helps a great deal and avoids rule violations.

I haven't violated any rules.

So two people have mentioned divorce specifically. No one else has advocated it though. The point was that sex was a need to them. So of course the marriage would be empty without it. A marriage would be empty without love, right? That's not the same as saying the marriage has failed, though.

It's not biblical to divorce for that reason.

I don't think the things were meant in the way you may have perceived them. So, saying that they "have no clue what the Bible is about" is incredibly uncalled for and unnecessary. Even if it's what you think, it doesn't mean it should be said. No one has questioned your understanding of the Bible. There's no need to questions someone elses. And, actually, that is a rule violation.

Actually the rule is: Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

I didn't say they weren't Christian. I said "anyone who says - then your marriage has failed, that spouse is a failure, that marriage is over, might as well call it quits - doesn't have a clue what the Bible is about." I stand by that comment. Anyone who quits on a marriage that easily or encourages another to do so does not understand the Bible, where it says "do not divorce unless for adultery." That is factual - not opinion.

 

[JaneFW]

Take it up with a higher power than folks here. I recommend these days letting folks sort theor own beliefs on divorce, just dont go into it in any way that harms any 3rd party, kids or even society as a whole....then no one cares, otherwise its everyones business.

Really???

Why such a radical change of mind?

 

[roseread]

I haven't violated any rules.


It's not biblical to divorce for that reason.


Actually the rule is: Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

I didn't say they weren't Christian. I said "anyone who says - then your marriage has failed, that spouse is a failure, that marriage is over, might as well call it quits - doesn't have a clue what the Bible is about." I stand by that comment. Anyone who quits on a marriage that easily or encourages another to do so does not understand the Bible, where it says "do not divorce unless for adultery." That is factual - not opinion.

I don't think that spending 7 years living up to his standards will being denied a basic foundation of marriage, seven years of having my heart and soul crushed, 7 years of begging and pleading is giving up easily.

I know what the bible says, I also know that I mentally can not stand much more of this life.

 

[JaneFW]

I don't think that spending 7 years living up to his standards will being denied a basic foundation of marriage, seven years of having my heart and soul crushed, 7 years of begging and pleading is giving up easily.

I know what the bible says, I also know that I mentally can not stand much more of this life.

Well I have been in that marriage for even longer, and I don't think it's easy either way. I stand by what I have suggested before - that you take steps *for yourself* and do it asap. I would really really advise counseling. If I ever get my behind into gear, that's what I'll be doing for myself. I'm already back at school so that, if push comes to shove - if he turns around one day and decides he's out of here - I can still earn good money. But the difference is that we have three kids, and two of them are already victims of divorce (from his first marriage) and I cannot bring myself to abandon them, nor force our son to choose between his parents. It's just a big NO to me. So, when thinking it over and over and praying about it, I decided that I would take the steps that I could take, and continue in prayer about the rest of it, understanding fully the commitment I made when I married my h, and believing in God and what He wants for His children, and I cannot turn any of that into a "yes", no matter how hard I used to try. It's just not there.

There is a difference between such as you and I, who endure this kind of marriage, and those who just "imagine" what it would be like. I don't appreciate people saying that this kind of marriage is a "failure". There may have been failure along the way, but for me personally I treasure this marriage, as battered as it is, and nobody is going to use that word to curse my marriage, or the marriage of anyone else who is struggling. I can't imagine people who come here as "guests" reading this and wondering how on earth they can cope with troubles, if those who call upon God cannot! We are better than that, or we should be.

Sorry to ramble. I don't judge you for any decision that you make, but please take steps to strengthen your position and talk to someone about it. I mean someone real! A counselor, priest, pastor, whatever. Just someone who can warmly encourage you. And I need to take the same advice!