Sex and NFP usage question - adults only please

St_Joseph_Cupertino · Apr 17, 2007

Hi there!

I have a question on NFP and what is permissable. Sorry if this post will become a bit explicit.

If you are pracicing NFP to avoide pregnancy at this time, what would be permissable to do during the fertile period?
Would it be total abstinence? Or would it be allowable to do some physical acts?
I mean, how far can a couple go? Are there some actions that are alowable for the couple to pracitce the unitive aspect of intimacy?
Of course it would be initiated fully with the intent of not following through with intercourse at that time, so at what point does intimacy become mutual masturbation?

Thank you for your honest and candid answers.

MikeK · Apr 17, 2007

so at what point does intimacy become mutual masturbation?

Mutual touching yourself is not illicit IIRC, unless the male climaxes.

My understanding was always that pretty much anything goes for the female, but the male may not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside the vagina. Some here believe otherwise, that women are also only allowed to climax immediatley before, during or after sexual intercourse.

St_Joseph_Cupertino · Apr 17, 2007

MikeK said:
Mutual touching yourself is not illicit IIRC, unless the male climaxes.

My understanding was always that pretty much anything goes for the female, but the male may not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside the vagina. Some here believe otherwise, that women are also only allowed to climax immediatley before, during or after sexual intercourse.

Thanks!

Would it be permissable to engage in that sort of actions during the fertile stage when you do not intend to follow it through right there?

NDIrish · Apr 17, 2007

I'm going to give a simple (but probably unpopular) answer. Just abstain completely. There's no need to delve into any gray areas here...just abstain completely!

MikeK · Apr 17, 2007

I don't know. I have no problem with it and certainly feel no guilt about it. Again, remember that the Church is quite explicit in saying that the male cannot climax at this time, as male climax is directly related to and required for conception. Whether the female can climax in such a situation or not is apparently the subject of some disagreement.

CuriousInIL · Apr 17, 2007

St_Joseph_Cupertino said:
Thanks!

Would it be permissable to engage in that sort of actions during the fertile stage when you do not intend to follow it through right there?

My answer would be yes, because I view it as extended foreplay. However, in many past discussions on this, I know a significant number of folks believe it is not permissible because it leads to sin or is too likely to sin. I think that view gives folks too little credit for what can be controlled.

Filia Mariae · Apr 17, 2007

Kissing, holding each other, etc. is fine and, IMO, should not be completely forsaken when a couple is abstaining because that kind of relegates all physical affection to the erotic. I think couples need to learn to express affection and tenderness without it being an erotic thing, which is one of the great values of chastity before marriage. If you are chaste before marriage, you can learn how tender kisses and hand holding, etc. can be beautiful expressions of love without always being ordered to sex.

Obviously, there is no complete list of acceptable vs. unacceptable physical interaction during fertile times when one is abstaining. Good questions I think for self-discernment here are:

1. Why are we doing this? To express affection or to arouse each other/ourselves when we know it can't go anywhere?

2. Are we making this (abstaining) more difficult for one another? Or are we serving one another in walking together in holiness and making necessary sacrifices?

3. Are we taking our sexuality and dividing the unitive and pleasurable gift from the gift of life?

RoseofLima · Apr 17, 2007

I am in the Filia Maria and ND Irish camp. Sexual stimulation for male or female removes the unitive from the procreative aspect if the intent is to abstain from marital relations. Foreplay is licit in that it yields to the completion of the sexual act (or at least has the serious intention to that ends-- if your baby wakes up or your door bell rings- that's outside your ability to control, ya' know??)

Also if you're a slacker like me- I don't wanna stop...and then for the next year and a half you don't have to worry about fertility cycles

DivineFiliation · Apr 17, 2007

I'm going to go out on a limb here and post. I find this topic most interesting and terribly ironic considering when you look at our past and our present.

The thing that I want to say, is that my husband and I have the most wonderful time "together" after we abstain for awhile... be it for a baby making session or while I'm incapable or whatever. But, this especially requires restraint from him and I think that the big big big thing that people do is use sex for instant gratification/tension release. People want to get those endorphins going and feel better. This is NOT what sex is for.

and I think you can find out what your reason is, based upon the questions that Filia Mariae posed.

You know, for awhile my husband and I went to marriage counseling. The counselor (through Catholic Charities nonetheless) stated that people need three things in life. food, water and sex. What that shows is that the science/psychology/maybe even medical world thinks that this is an animal instinct that we have to releave in order to move on with life. God made us DIFFERENT from the animals so I get real put off when people say that it's an animal instinct that we have to feed.

I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is that the point of all of this is for the union between husband and wife... and that union is for the furthering of their relationship (and possible procreation). If this cannot be achieved then there is no reason to get all hot and bothered.

HOWEVER, I do believe that there are instances where people may not feel that it is appropriate for them to have children... whatever reasons they have come up with are between them and God. For me, personally, when my husband and I were having major major troubles, it was NOT a good time for a baby. In which case, you should use NFP (or abstain or whatever). God's blessings on those people who are super super fertile though because I can imagine that the stress of getting pregnant "yet again" can sure put some strain on that "union" that was designed for our pleasure and unity.

NDIrish · Apr 17, 2007

Sorry, I know you said adults only, but I couldn't resist...

St_Joseph_Cupertino · Apr 17, 2007

NDIrish said:
Sorry, I know you said adults only, but I couldn't resist...

MikeK · Apr 17, 2007

I suppose viewing pictures of Nancy Reagan would be useful for the purpose of taming libidos during a fertile period....good tip!

geocajun · Apr 17, 2007

St_Joseph_Cupertino said:
Hi there!

I have a question on NFP and what is permissable. Sorry if this post will become a bit explicit.

If you are pracicing NFP to avoide pregnancy at this time, what would be permissable to do during the fertile period?
Would it be total abstinence? Or would it be allowable to do some physical acts?
I mean, how far can a couple go? Are there some actions that are alowable for the couple to pracitce the unitive aspect of intimacy?
Of course it would be initiated fully with the intent of not following through with intercourse at that time, so at what point does intimacy become mutual masturbation?

Thank you for your honest and candid answers.

In my experience the best thing to do there is nothing at all. Don't start something you cannot finish or you may finish it after all and end up with a baby (been there, done that!).

DivineFiliation · Apr 17, 2007

Nancy Reagan is not only an adult but quite old!

enelya_taralom · Apr 17, 2007

Ha This thread has been awesome so far!!

Seriously though, I think Fillia Mariae said it all! Excellent post!

hsilgne · Apr 17, 2007

MikeK said:
..., as male climax is directly related to and required for conception.

Well, apparently not according to recent experiments in England(I think it is). Supposedly they can produce sperm from the bone marrow of a woman. No need for men to climax anymore.

hsilgne · Apr 17, 2007

ND Irish said it best. Just say no and abstain.

But I might add... Thank God for Reconciliation!!

oat02351 · Apr 17, 2007

Anyone who can wait till they are married are the ones who are truly blessed! But, abstaining after... I believe if you're married and you've actually held out that long, go nuts. I only wish we could've held off but, oops; expecting . How can you live with someone and not... wouldn't that in it's self put a strain on a perfectly good marital relationship? Being one who didn't hold off, I could be wrong...

NDIrish · Apr 17, 2007

oat02351 said:
How can you live with someone and not... wouldn't that in it's self put a strain on a perfectly good marital relationship? Being one who didn't hold off, I could be wrong...

Actually, quit the contrary. It can really strengthen a marriage.

2Cosmic2Charlie · Apr 17, 2007

NDIrish said:
Actually, quit the contrary. It can really strengthen a marriage.

ND's rigtht, it can.

I'd be willing to bet mostly it doesn't. The problem as I see it is couples aren't trained in how maintain passion during these times.

Anyway we could argue about it endlessly because this is yet another area of NFP that hasn't been studied. People just make claims like they know. (Not you, ND, but people generally, you know, like me)

ND is also right about abstainence during fertile times. The CCL says we should treat this time like the time we were "courting,"

You really don't want to know what went on during my time I was "courting" my wife.

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