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Seventh Day Adventists

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djconklin

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SDA's keep telling others to genuinely read Ellen and then make a judgment by what the Holy Spirit 'tells' them. So they do and the Holy Spirit tells them to run away from the false teachings, which they do, and then they say we're listening to the wrong 'spirits'.

As I have seen dozens of times, when people really begin to dig in EGW's writings, more and more stink can be detected, which is a good indication that something is rotten. Once other Christian's realize she taught an incomplete atonement at the cross, it's over.

How many ways are there to say "pure bunk"?

The writings of Ellen G. White are more in accord with what the Bible says than any other writer out there.* Even her foremost critic during her lifetime (Canright) conceded that she was a "godly woman."

*There was a study that showed the people who read EGW were MORE likely to the Bible and did so more frequently than those who did not.
 
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ricker

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How many ways are there to say "pure bunk"?

The writings of Ellen G. White are more in accord with what the Bible says than any other writer out there.* Even her foremost critic during her lifetime (Canright) conceded that she was a "godly woman."

*There was a study that showed the people who read EGW were MORE likely to the Bible and did so more frequently than those who did not.

My personal testimony, told earlier, happened many years ago, long before the internet or any other "outside" influences. Even though I had went to SDA schools through college in the 70"s I hadn't at that time heard anything about possible "copying" or anything like that. I was just lead to reject Ellen. Praise the Lord!
Was that study just Adventists or everyone? I would imagine SDA's who were "marginal" and didn't read EGW wouldn't read the Bible much either. God bless! Ricker
 
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freeindeed2

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How many ways are there to say "pure bunk"?

The writings of Ellen G. White are more in accord with what the Bible says than any other writer out there.* Even her foremost critic during her lifetime (Canright) conceded that she was a "godly woman."

*There was a study that showed the people who read EGW were MORE likely to the Bible and did so more frequently than those who did not.
Was that study done on all Christian groups, or just Adventists? I would expect SDA's to follow her proof-texts after reading her massive volumes. I did!

You are aware that there are many Christians in the world who read the Bible all the time, and they don't even know of the SDA prophet? How does that study fit them?
 
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freeindeed2

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What you wrote: "Ellen G. White is the SDA prophet that came out of the false predictions for Christ's return in 1843, then the Spring of 1844, and then October 22, 1844."
I can see why your research is flawed just based on how you quote other posters. No wonder it's so biased!

Even the wording of what you quoted shows that she came AFTER the false predictions made!

And if you'll just read on (something SDA's have a difficult time doing in the Scriptures as well) you'll see it clarified by this statement:
"After the date-setting fiasco came and went she had claimed to have 'visions' which confirmed that the date(s) were actually correct that the Millerites (William Miller) had set and that it was just the wrong event. Now SDA's use the 1844 date for their 'Investigative Judgment' doctrine which no other Christian group taught before or accepted since."
This is why you find exactly what you're looking for in your 'research', just like Bacchiocchi, who writes his book based on research done where the outcome has already been determined beforehand.

Please acknowledge that I attributed the date-setting to Miller and the Millerites, not to EGW. What I have said about EGW is that she, after it was over and after she began claiming she had 'visions', endorsed his false predictions and called his 15 proofs for arriving at the dates a 'perfect chain of biblical truth', even though it was all chalk full of errors.

Get your facts straight.
 
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Jon0388g

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Yeah, it only denies the completed atonement of Christ, putting it off for 1800 years in order to fit with the failed 1844 dates from the Millerite movement, which Ellen White endorsed as a 'prophet'. And even then one cannot be sure of their salvation and they must perfect all character defects in themselves before his return or they will be lost. It's the SDA version of righteousness by works, and a sad one at that. There are huge problems and huge implications that stem from the IJ.

And you were an Adventist pastor for how long?

Your history of posting against the IJ shows your weak understanding of the basic principles, even if you claim to be able to speak with 'some semblance of authority' on the doctrine.


Jon
 
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freeindeed2

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And you were an Adventist pastor for how long?

Your history of posting against the IJ shows your weak understanding of the basic principles, even if you claim to be able to speak with 'some semblance of authority' on the doctrine.


Jon
Then please be kind enough to show me where the SDA/EGW IJ doctrine teaches that the atonement was finished at the cross.

Have you taken your SDA Bible classes yet in college? Be careful to not buy what 'they' say hook-line-and sinker.

Read Ford's document on this (it will take you a while) and then tell me what you think. Why do you suppose all the other theologians in the world who have looked into the EGW IJ do not accept it? There are serious problems, but your stuck with it because your prophet said it and there's no getting around it unless you (SDAism) admits she was wrong. But they can't, because there's too much at stake, too many jobs, and it would upset too many people. I've sat in those pastors meetings where these things are discussed. For the most part, the only ones being duped are the lay people because their authorities, conferences, pastors, etc. keep feeding them the company line in order to save face and save jobs. Don't believe me? Start asking different SDA pastors (not just the couple in your area) who are willing to share truthfully and your eyes will open up and at least a small piece of the truth will come into better focus.
 
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Jimlarmore

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I have found the IJ supported in the Bible distinctly separate from the SOP. I have also found the 2300 days to end in 1844 at which time the time of the end started according to Revelation. You want to bash Ellen White but you can't refute the Bible's support for a pre-advent judgement. Forget Ford, E.G.White or any other modern author, show me from the Bible where the 2300 days prophecy does not extend to 1844. Show me from the Bible that the dead are not judged before the 2nd advent. I can show you my texts that I found to support my belief, can you show me yours?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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djconklin

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Then please be kind enough to show me where the SDA/EGW IJ doctrine teaches that the atonement was finished at the cross.

Who said that the atonement was finished at the cross? Are you insinuating that it was and since the IJ doesn't that therefore the IJ must be wrong?

Exactly how many Bible classes do you take? At what schools? Did you go to the seminary?
 
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djconklin

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Even though I had went to SDA schools through college in the 70"s I hadn't at that time heard anything about possible "copying" or anything like that.

You wouldn't have heard much about the charge then. It really took off (once again--it has some history) once Rea came out with his book supposedly showing it in 1982. Then Dr. Veltman and a team of researchers spent 6 years looking into it (that study came out in 1988). I didn't hear ab't it till about 2002 or so and since then I started working it over.

Was that study just Adventists or everyone? I would imagine SDA's who were "marginal" and didn't read EGW wouldn't read the Bible much either.

It was a study of SDA's; don't know of any "marginal" SDA's you either are or you aren't--unless you went to a cultic off-shot (I've seen them claiming that what they weretaught was the usual fare at any SDA church.).
 
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djconklin

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Originally Posted by djconklin
What you wrote: "Ellen G. White is the SDA prophet that came out of the false predictions for Christ's return in 1843, then the Spring of 1844, and then October 22, 1844."

I can see why your research is flawed just based on how you quote other posters. No wonder it's so biased!

Even the wording of what you quoted shows that she came AFTER the false predictions made!

Hmm, she was 17 in 1844; how could she come after?

BTW,

1) if my research is flawed on the plagiarism claim then you can chuck everything that has ever been done on the subject. All I do is show what Rea and Dr. Veltman said, in columns (like Rea) and in color.

2) if my research on the plagiarsim claim is "flawed" then isn't it better than the non-existant stuff of some of the critics who only bad-mouth it without ever showing where or how? Of course, they can't do that because they haven't done any of the work.

Please acknowledge that I attributed the date-setting to Miller and the Millerites, not to EGW.

NOW, he decides to tell the truth! You waited because you didn't think that you'd get called on it.

Ands then you attack my work claiming I had some pre-ordained outcome before I started. You acknowledge that I did no such thing.
 
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Eila

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I have found the IJ supported in the Bible distinctly separate from the SOP. I have also found the 2300 days to end in 1844 at which time the time of the end started according to Revelation.

How do you know that the time of the end started in 1844?

Acts 2 says that the end times started at the birth of the church "14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams...."
 
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ricker

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You wouldn't have heard much about the charge then. It really took off (once again--it has some history) once Rea came out with his book supposedly showing it in 1982. Then Dr. Veltman and a team of researchers spent 6 years looking into it (that study came out in 1988). I didn't hear ab't it till about 2002 or so and since then I started working it over.

It was a study of SDA's; don't know of any "marginal" SDA's you either are or you aren't--unless you went to a cultic off-shot (I've seen them claiming that what they weretaught was the usual fare at any SDA church.).

Thanks for your reply. I guess by "marginal" I meant the pew warmers and others that are Adventists by culture and not neccessarily by much study. Unfortunately this is a condition of many people in many denominations. God bless! Ricker
 
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djconklin

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I meant the pew warmers and others that are Adventists by culture and not neccessarily by much study. Unfortunately this is a condition of many people in many denominations.

Oh, those! Well, then you are quite correct!

One of the things that brought us into the SDA church is the fact that we actually had to study the Bible to see what it said. One of our neighbors was the pastor of the Methodist church behind our house and my dad went several times to ask if the things were were being taught were true. On one occassion my dad asked him point-blank why don't you preach this at church (since Methodists supposedly beleived certain life-style practices too)? The pastor said "Because if I did I'd lose my job." That alone virtually killed it for being a Methodist. And then when we saw how they affirmed the truthfulness of the Bible vs. what the churches are saying today (gays okay, Daniel written in 164 BC, etc.)--that sealed it for us. Then when he gave Bible studies to his parents he was kind of stunned to have his folks agreeing with everything--he never heard it from them when growing up!
 
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Eila

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I have found the IJ supported in the Bible distinctly separate from the SOP. I have also found the 2300 days to end in 1844 at which time the time of the end started according to Revelation.

2300 days are not referred to as 2300 days in Daniel, but 2300 evenings and mornings. Evenings and mornings are specific and there is nothing to say that this can be taken to mean 2300 years.

Daniel 8 "9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices;all this and prospered.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”"


Look here at 1 Maccabees you can see the specific fulfillment of the actual 2300 day prophecy:

1 Maccabees 1 "
and he cast truth down to the ground. He did 29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. 31He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls. 32They took captive the women and children, and seized the livestock. 33Then they fortified the city of David with a great strong wall and strong towers, and it became their citadel. 34They stationed there a sinful people, men who were renegades. These strengthened their position; 35they stored up arms and food, and collecting the spoils of Jerusalem they stored them there, and became a great menace,
36 for the citadeld became an ambush against the sanctuary,
an evil adversary of Israel at all times.
37 On every side of the sanctuary they shed innocent blood;
they even defiled the sanctuary
.
38 Because of them the residents of Jerusalem fled;
she became a dwelling of strangers;
she became strange to her offspring,
and her children forsook her.
39 Her sanctuary became desolate like a desert;
her feasts were turned into mourning,
her sabbaths into a reproach,
her honor into contempt.
40 Her dishonor now grew as great as her glory;
her exaltation was turned into mourning.
41 Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42and that all should give up their particular customs. 43All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. 44And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the towns of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, 45to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and festivals, 46to defile the sanctuary and the priests, 47to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and other unclean animals, 48and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, 49so that they would forget the law and change all the ordinances. 50He added,e "And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die."
51 In such words he wrote to his whole kingdom. He appointed inspectors over all the people and commanded the towns of Judah to offer sacrifice, town by town. 52Many of the people, everyone who forsook the law, joined them, and they did evil in the land; 53they drove Israel into hiding in every place of refuge they had.
54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, 55and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. 56The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. 57Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. 58They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. 59On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. 60According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, 61and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks.
62 But many in Israel stood firm and were resolved in their hearts not to eat unclean food. 63They chose to die rather than to be defiled by food or to profane the holy covenant; and they did die. 64Very great wrath came upon Israel."



1 Maccabees 4 "
36 Then Judas and his brothers said, "See, our enemies are crushed; let us go up to cleanse the sanctuary and dedicate it." 37So all the army assembled and went up to Mount Zion. 38There they saw the sanctuary desolate, the altar profaned, and the gates burned. In the courts they saw bushes sprung up as in a thicket, or as on one of the mountains. They saw also the chambers of the priests in ruins. 39Then they tore their clothes and mourned with great lamentation; they sprinkled themselves with ashes 40and fell face down on the ground. And when the signal was given with the trumpets, they cried out to Heaven.
41 Then Judas detailed men to fight against those in the citadel until he had cleansed the sanctuary. 42He chose blameless priests devoted to the law, 43and they cleansed the sanctuary and removed the defiled stones to an unclean place. 44They deliberated what to do about the altar of burnt offering, which had been profaned. 45And they thought it best to tear it down, so that it would not be a lasting shame to them that the Gentiles had defiled it. So they tore down the altar, 46and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until a prophet should come to tell what to do with them. 47Then they took unhewnd stones, as the law directs, and built a new altar like the former one. 48They also rebuilt the sanctuary and the interior of the temple, and consecrated the courts. 49They made new holy vessels, and brought the lampstand, the altar of incense, and the table into the temple. 50Then they offered incense on the altar and lit the lamps on the lampstand, and these gave light in the temple. 51They placed the bread on the table and hung up the curtains. Thus they finished all the work they had undertaken.
52 Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-eighth year,e 53they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering that they had built. 54At the very season and on the very day that the Gentiles had profaned it, it was dedicated with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals. 55All the people fell on their faces and worshiped and blessed Heaven, who had prospered them. 56So they celebrated the dedication of the altar for eight days, and joyfully offered burnt offerings; they offered a sacrifice of well-being and a thanksgiving offering. 57They decorated the front of the temple with golden crowns and small shields; they restored the gates and the chambers for the priests, and fitted them with doors. 58There was very great joy among the people, and the disgrace brought by the Gentiles was removed.
59 Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev.
60 At that time they fortified Mount Zion with high walls and strong towers all around, to keep the Gentiles from coming and trampling them down as they had done before. 61Judasf stationed a garrison there to guard it; he also fortified Beth-zur to guard it, so that the people might have a stronghold that faced Idumea."

The 2300 days can be figured 2 ways:

1 "
Reckoning from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae, in which Antiochus set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar (1 Maccabees 1:59), to the victory obtained over Nicanor by Judas, on the 13th day of the month Adar, Anno 151, are 2300 days. The Jews kept an annual feast on the 13th of Adar, in commemoration of the victory."

2. "
[SIZE=-1]The period began with the defection of the people from the pure religion by the Jewish high priest Menelaus, on the 6th day of the 6th month of Anno 141. According to Josephus, Menelaus went "to Antiochus, and informed him, that they were desirous to leave the laws of their country, and the Jewish way of living according to them, and to follow the king's laws, and the Grecian way of living." (Antiquities, bk. 7, ch. 5.1) The period ended on the twenty-fifth day of Cisleu in the year 148, when the Jews offered the daily sacrifice on the new altar of burnt offerings (1 Maccabees 4:52). This is a total of 2300 days."

In Maccabees it clearly shows a desecration and a cleansing of an actual sanctuary. And the time period it took from one to the other was an actual 2300 evenings and mornings
..


[/SIZE]
 
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freeindeed2

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Who said that the atonement was finished at the cross? Are you insinuating that it was and since the IJ doesn't that therefore the IJ must be wrong?

Exactly how many Bible classes do you take? At what schools? Did you go to the seminary?
Couldn't count them all. Southwestern, Southern, and Andrews. And even more at another non-SDA, Christian university. Eight and a half years in all.
 
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freeindeed2

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Hmm, she was 17 in 1844; how could she come after?
Huh? Ellen was declared to be a prophet AFTER 1844. Are you trying to establish that she was a prophet.

However, there is some evidence that she claimed/or was claimed to have a vision or two as early as 1842. We know she had one in Dec. 1844 (I believe it was) because it 'confirmed' Edson's lone vision for reinterpreting the 1844 message to the teaching on the sanctuary/IJ.

BTW,

1) if my research is flawed on the plagiarism claim then you can chuck everything that has ever been done on the subject. All I do is show what Rea and Dr. Veltman said, in columns (like Rea) and in color.

2) if my research on the plagiarsim claim is "flawed" then isn't it better than the non-existant stuff of some of the critics who only bad-mouth it without ever showing where or how? Of course, they can't do that because they haven't done any of the work.
Then why can't you quote me correctly?

NOW, he decides to tell the truth! You waited because you didn't think that you'd get called on it.

Ands then you attack my work claiming I had some pre-ordained outcome before I started. You acknowledge that I did no such thing.
If you'll read the original statement (which I quoted again for you!) you'll see it in plain English. If you had quoted me correctly I wouldn't have even responded to you. But you didn't.
 
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Jon0388g

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Then please be kind enough to show me where the SDA/EGW IJ doctrine teaches that the atonement was finished at the cross.

You illustrate my point yet again. How am I to engage in meaningful discussion with a supposed ex-pastor who erroneously calls the Investigative Judgment "the EGW IJ doctrine"? Your very first response is riddled with errors.

Firslty, the IJ is only part of a much broader doctrine taught by the Adventist church, and that is the Sanctuary Doctrine, which I'm sure you know. It follows out naturally from that.

Secondly, it is not an "EGW" doctrine: the main figures behind these doctrines are the Millerites who survived the Great Disappointment, returning to their Bibles and uncovering the real truth. Edson began their inquest, and EGW later confirmed their conclusions.

I'm not going to start a debate on the ins and outs of the IJ and the fullness of Christ's atonement. That isn't what this thread is for. However, I would appreciate it if you at least present accurate facts when you attempt to discredit one of the pillars of Adventism.

Jon

P.S.

Have you taken your SDA Bible classes yet in college? Be careful to not buy what 'they' say hook-line-and sinker.

I don't go to an Adventist college. I study Physics at Imperial College London. :)
 
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