Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

Sophia7 · Apr 19, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
Sophia you are not alone in not understand these points clearly. I can see that I need to format a multipart study that will explain exactly what consisted of the "Law" both before Siani and after. Also exactly what is the "Law" today. Will this task be time consuming? Yes. Will it clear the way for understanding? I hope so. It has for others.

Respectfully,
Doc

Doc, I don't need a multi-part study promoting the Adventist view of the Law, but feel free to post it for the perusal of others. I've heard it in countless evangelistic seminars and Bible studies. I understand it; I just don't agree with it anymore.

Cribstyl · Apr 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
What is the word for the definition article "the" in the original Hebrew and Greek?

"The" is the only definitive article in the english language.
:o I dont have an answer to why this word does not have a Hebrew or Greek definiton found in the scpritures.
Scholars who transliterated from the original text to english may have conveyed why.

From the way our english language is formed, the presence or absence of "the" in a statement does have a targeted understanding.
It is without question to a Jew, "The law" is a body of commandments given through Moses.
"Law" speak of rules and declarations to govern a people, nature, teritory, etc. Not all law is from God, but "the law" is understood as from God.

Jesus is David's seed and David is Abraham's seed! And WE are Abraham's seed as well!

So you agree there were several different covenants in the OT?

Yes, Whenever God spoke prophetically to man in a certain generation and made a covenant, God's words are irreversable.

Amen, God has NEVER broken His covenants.

We're in agreement on something

You just quoted scripture that SAYS they had to keep the commandments and the statutes yet you say they didn't have to? Punishment is punishment.

Lilke I said, The covenant with David had no conditions for David's seed to keep in order to obtain God's promise to David.

Yes, this Psalm does show that this same seed were also under another covenant, called the Mosaic Covenant which had blessing and curses that doomed those that broke "the law. "

All the covenants have words we can research in order to read what both sides are obligated to do and especially when that covenant will be fulfilled or not.

The Davidic covenant was fulfilled when Jesus ascended. Act 2:25-36

The Mosaic covenant which had laws that condemn all men to death for sins, this covenant was fulfilled when Jesus resurrected from the dead for sins of the world. (Some people call the law love, but text calls it a ministration of death, ministration of condemnation, whose glory is faded away in light of the new covenant)2Cr 3:7-16

David's covenant included the commandments and statutes....surprisingly, most covenants DO!

Most covenant do not....prove it.
Show text that the Covenant with Noah contained the Law and commandments?

Text proves, that if the Abrahamic covenant was dependent on the law which came into being 430years after God's promise to Abraham, then the promise was a scam.(void)

Gal 3:17And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The New Covenant does not include "the law", given the COI, but rather God's law that cause us to know His will for each of our lives.

CRIB

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
Mr. Zaspel should be a dancer. He has some beautiful footwork. I also wonder who he is trying to impress with his vocabulary.

The answer to the OP in this thread is really quite simple. God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever. So is His Word and His law. It makes no difference whether they be written by His finger in stone or on the fleshy tables of man's heart.

Respectfully,
Doc

So the question now becomes, have you kept them with out breaking them? Why or why not? Do you gain favor with God for keeping them? What is the reason why God gave the law? What are the laws weitten on your heart...can you name them?

AT

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

Sophia7 said:
What if they were given through Moses, 430 years after the promises that God spoke to Abraham (Gal. 3:17)? If God's Law never changes, then why do Adventists not keep the whole thing? The Torah is not just the ten commandments, but that's what Adventists teach is written in our hearts under the new covenant. Then they tack on a few other OT laws as binding on Christians, such as the dietary and tithing regulations, and dismiss the rest of the Law as "ceremonial." It's a very inconsistent view.

These are the same questions I asked Trust and Obey and have yet to get an answer to them or other questions she never answers.

At

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
Abraham kept them. Because of that he received the promise and when we accept Christ we become heirs to that promise!

Kindly show me scripture that says Abraham kept the ten commandments?

]Well, let's see....we know the ordinances were nailed to the cross and that Jesus told us that whoever is without sin may cast the first stone (so nobody)....and we know that He came to fulfill ONLY the laws that concerned Him (Luke 24:44 & Luke 22:37) and that they would end.

So if some of the laws ended when they where nailed to the cross, and some ended when He fulfilled them, so why would Chirst have us to go back to keeping them?

How did the commandments written on stone point to Christ? He LIVED them and taught us how to as well.

Kindly show scripture in context of chapter where Christ taught new covenant believers who to keep the commandments.

He added hate to "thou shalt not murder" and lust to "thou shalt not commit adultery". Are those binding to modern-day Christians?

This is where you fail to understand. The jurisdiction of the law has no power over justified believers any more. So its not a matter of what law is binding upon believers because of the great exchange. We have all sinned and continue to fall short of Gods glory. Yet the justified believer is recieved of God and does not desire to live an unrighteous life, but acts of sin are of us. But does God cast us off?

Did the food laws concern Christ? Did the tithing laws concern Christ?

Kindly show me a law in the bible that says that New Covenant justified believers have to keep food and tithing laws. This is a assumption of yours

I already covered all this in my first and second post.

If you want to see an inconsistent view, ask any former what laws we have to keep now, as Christians.

What laws are in the New Covenant Sophia? What laws should Christians keep?

It's a simple question yet I NEVER get the same answer twice.

Can you understand an harmonize a few simple passages as these?

(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Rom 3:29)Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
(Rom 3:30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In the first passage it says a man is justified apart from law, and then it says we establish law. Kindly explain this trust and obey.

[color]And kindly explain these and how they all harmonize together to make one truth.[/color]

(Gal 3:10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(Gal 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(Gal 3:12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

]Or will you avoid these questions and not answer like you have done with my other questions to you. I am not being rude here.

AT

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

woobadooba said:
I'm not going to debate.

But I will give a brief answer and then follow it with a question for thought.

The law that God is referring to is love

Now, for the question:

Is there anything in the Ten Commandments that doesn't have anything to do with love?

Very good and safe answer and question, and I too agree. Love fulfills it. But that does not mean we are following after it to perform it...only that we establish it (Rom 3:31) through being loving and kind from within and to one another. But let us not think that love is all contained in the ten commandments ...Love supercedes the ten commandments to include more acts of mercy to others.

(Rom 13:8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Rom 13:10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

AT

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

Cribstyl said:
There is a difference in saying "the law" or just saying "law". Without the definitive article (the), "towrah" is not isolated to define the ten commandmants, but rather, the broader law give through Moses.

God was speaking about His convenant with David.
2Sa 7:10-16

Ps 89:3 You have said, I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have sworn to David my servant:
4I will establish your offspring forever,
and build your throne for all generations. Selah

That was the covenant in the text above above.

Jer 33: 19The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah:
20Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
21then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
22As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.

I posted Jer 33 to show that God's covenant with David had always eternal and unconditional. Gods covenant withDavid is aside from anything that David's seed must do to obtain it.

Adam broke the first covenant....... God has never broken His covenants.ESV - Hsa 6:7 -But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.

YES, By reading Ps 89 you can see that God would punish them when they would stray from His laws and commandmants under the Mosaic covenant. But, the Davidic covenant was God's promise to David. Because the covenant was not dependant on the people keeping the law, God was obligate to put Daviid seed on the throne

Ps 89:
28My steadfast love I will keep for him forever,
and my covenant will stand firm [fn4] for him.
29I will establish his offspring forever
and his throne as the days of the heavens.
30If his children forsake my law
and do not walk according to my rules,
31if they violate my statutes
and do not keep my commandments,
32then I will punish their transgression with the rod
and their iniquity with stripes,
33but I will not remove from him my steadfast love
or be false to my faithfulness.
34I will not violate my covenant
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
35Once for all I have sworn by my holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36His offspring shall endure forever,
his throne as long as the sun before me.
37Like the moon it shall be established forever,
a faithful witness in the skies. Selah

CRIB

Long time no see brother! And very good posting!

AT

Adventtruth · Apr 19, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
What is the word for the definition article "the" in the original Hebrew and Greek?

Jesus is David's seed and David is Abraham's seed! And WE are Abraham's seed as well!

So you agree there were several different covenants in the OT?

[/color]

Amen, God has NEVER broken His covenants.

You just quoted scripture that SAYS they had to keep the commandments and the statutes yet you say they didn't have to? Punishment is punishment.

David's covenant included the commandments and statutes....surprisingly, most covenants DO!

Do you understand that Israel was under two covenants at the same time? A covenant of works and a covenant of Grace. If you do then your problem disapears. Unlike Israel we are under one covenant...the Covenant of grace where God promises to do it all for us. The justified are dead to law.

AT

Cribstyl · Apr 19, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Long time no see brother! And very good posting!

AT

What's happening friend?.
Sheeze, the powers that be changed everything arround again.

Well, it'll be a wihile before the relationships we're accustom to, get back together.

CRIB

Adventtruth · Apr 21, 2008

Cribstyl said:
What's happening friend?.
Sheeze, the powers that be changed everything arround again.

Well, it'll be a wihile before the relationships we're accustom to, get back together.

CRIB

Not much....same old same old. Its not looking as if Trust and Obey is going to answer these set of question does it?

AT

TrustAndObey · Apr 21, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Not much....same old same old. Its not looking as if Trust and Obey is going to answer these set of question does it?

AT

I recall saying I would leave if it became a former dog-pile and that's exactly what it is.

But...I do plan on answering you (I keep forgetting about this thread). I'm just in the middle of preparation for finals this semester and trying to get ahead in my classes instead of just doing the minimum.

I'm finally done with the Nursing school entrance exam so that big chunk of my time is gone.

I'll be back. I have class today so it will probably be tomorrow.

God's many blessings,
~Lainie

VictorC · Apr 21, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Do you understand that Israel was under two covenants at the same time? A covenant of works and a covenant of Grace. If you do then your problem disapears. Unlike Israel we are under one covenant...the Covenant of grace where God promises to do it all for us. The justified are dead to law.

AT

I agree. I just wanted to provide the distinction of the justified have been redeemed with His Blood from the law mediated by Moses, and this redemption translates into a purchase. Those who have received Jesus Christ have experienced a change of ownership:

Ephesians 1:12-14
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Victor

VictorC · Apr 21, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
In the Hebrew language (used in Jeremiah), the word for law is towrah, but in the Hebrews 10 sister verse, the Greek word nomos is used.
Nomos and towrah both mean instruction, law, and direction.

I agree that torah conveys the meaning of 'instruction' with force equal to the definition of 'ordinance'. There is a passage from Jeremiah and Hebrews that I haven't seen you show consideration for:

Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.
Hebrews 8:6-9
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Jeremiah makes it clear that the new covenant would not be according to the one made at Sinai.
Hebrews makes the very same assertion when it quotes Jeremiah, and further qualifies the reason the new covenant wouldn't be according to Sinai stems from the covenant made at Sinai contained a fault, specifically, it wasn't complied with by the recipients of that covenant, and did not justify anyone.

By the exclusion of the covenant made at Sinai, this excludes the ten commandments from taking a part in the new covenant. This is the reason that <a member on CARM> started his presentation with the identification of precisely what the covenant made at Sinai was: the ten commandments, as Deuteronomy 4:13 and Exodus 34:27-28 define it to be.

Now, you and I agree that torah means instruction as well as law. Consider where Jeremiah and Hebrews are leading us to after exclusion of the ten commandments from the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:10-11
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The end result of the new covenant written into our hearts and minds is to know God, with no more need for instruction. The law of the new covenant doesn't fit into the description of a written ordinance, as that causes you to know only the created ordinance, and not the Author of that ordinance.

What is this law written into us? After exclusion of the covenant from Sinai, the ten commandments, clues are presented that should lead you to recognize that it is describing the entrance of God Himself, and not a written ordinance.

Hebrews 10:15-16
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The Spirit of God is written in the present tense of His ability to witness to each of us personally, and this description is addressed to those who are already new covenant recipients.

This is as Ezekiel 36:26-27 presents the same concept, only it doesn't use the torah as a cause to know God - it reverses the roles to using God's Spirit as the cause to know His judgments and statutes. The Hebrew terms used here are choq and mishpat, neither of which are equivelant to torah:

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

There isn't an inclusion of a covenant based on the ten commandments already labelled as 'faulty' in the new covenant. The new covenant is God's Spirit.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Victor

Adventtruth · Apr 21, 2008

TrustAndObey said:
I recall saying I would leave if it became a former dog-pile and that's exactly what it is.

Well whats a dog pile? And it looks like the only formers here are Sophia, Tall and myself. Victor and Cribstyl have never been. So do you want all Adventist in this thread? Why should that matter if you want to seek truth?

But...I do plan on answering you (I keep forgetting about this thread). I'm just in the middle of preparation for finals this semester and trying to get ahead in my classes instead of just doing the minimum.

I'm finally done with the Nursing school entrance exam so that big chunk of my time is gone.

I'll be back. I have class today so it will probably be tomorrow.

God's many blessings,
~Lainie

Good to hear you are doing well in school...take as much time as you need before you answer us.

AT

Adventtruth · Apr 21, 2008

Hi Victor! Nice to see you here.

AT

VictorC · Apr 21, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Hi Victor! Nice to see you here.

AT

Thanks for the kind welcome!

Sophia7 · Apr 21, 2008

Hi, Victor.

VictorC · Apr 21, 2008

Sophia7 said:
Hi, Victor.

Hi Did you see the message I posted to your attention on CARM? I gave the intended recipient two chances to offer her comments, and when it was apparent she wasn't going to, I copied my post over here. That's the reason I waited as long as I did.
I think you need to poke your hubby in the ribs, BTW. His presence on his own thread is missed.

Sophia7 · Apr 21, 2008

VictorC said:
Hi Did you see the message I posted to your attention on CARM? I gave the intended recipient two chances to offer her comments, and when it was apparent she wasn't going to, I copied my post over here. That's the reason I waited as long as I did.
I think you need to poke your hubby in the ribs, BTW. His presence on his own thread is missed.

I saw it. Apparently T&O has said once again that she's leaving CARM. I'm sure hubby will come back to his thread at some point.

TrustAndObey · Apr 22, 2008

Sophia7 said:
I saw it. Apparently T&O has said once again that she's leaving CARM. I'm sure hubby will come back to his thread at some point.

I won't go back there and haven't been back there since I said I was done. I really am done. It's a pit bull arena.

But Sophia, if you're going to be critical of people that change their minds, I ought to bump some of Tall's dramatic goodbye threads here on CF.

Victor, although I don't feel like I owe you ANY explanation of my faith or my understanding of scripture, I will answer your post because apparently Adventtruth wants those same answers. Then, hopefully I will be "caught up" in this thread, but if I miss something, I'm sure you all will let me know.

Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

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