Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

[TrustAndObey]

Are you a Calvinist, Victor?

 

[TrustAndObey]

The reason that I have asked you "what tribe do you hail from?" is because the covenant of the ten commandments engraved on stone tables was exclusive to the children of Israel. Reading through all of Deuteronomy 4-5 will make that clear - no one else had them, and not even the generation prior to Moses had them.

What commandment did Cain disobey by murdering his brother?

God saved Noah (a "just" man) and his family....but what was it the rest of the people did to deserve death? How could they violate God's law if it didn't exist yet?

How were the sins very grievous of Sodom and Gomorrah? That was way before Mt. Sinai. What sins could they have possibly committed when there was no law? (Gen 18:20)

 

[VictorC]

So what are the BETTER promises then? Wasn't the promise God gave Abraham perfect already?

Absolutely.

Genesis 18:17-18
17: And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18: Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

What commandments and torah did Abraham keep?

I have answered this for you before on CARM.
Pertinent to this topic, it wasn't the covenant given to Moses 430 years later.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 makes that very clear.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

Are you a Calvinist, Victor?

oh, good grief....

 

[TrustAndObey]

Absolutely.

Genesis 18:17-18
17: And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18: Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Then what's the BETTER promises?

I have answered this for you before on CARM.
Pertinent to this topic, it wasn't the covenant given to Moses 430 years later.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 makes that very clear.

Victor

I don't go to CARM anymore, so humor me....

What commandments and torah did Abraham keep? It must be recorded in scripture, right?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Waaaay back in Genesis...was it okay for people of God to have gods? Or idols?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Did satan sin in heaven? If so, what sin was guilty of if there is no standard of God's will?

 

[VictorC]

I don't go to CARM anymore, so humor me....

Your decisions are what you choose to adide by. I don't make them for you, and I am not accountable for them.

Your responses have devolved to the point that there is little relation to either the OP or to the reponse that I wrote near the top of the thread.

So, please allow me to cut through the chase and get to the bottom line. The foundation for the thought you present isn't coming from the Scriptures - it is coming from Ellen White. Even though you haven't read her writings (as you have claimed before), you are instructed according to the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. Imbedded in Fundamental Belief #10 is the undefined coded phrase "law of love". You can search the Bible from cover to cover and never figure out what this means. However, this joins several other fundies that are rooted in Ellen instead of the Bible:

The yoke that binds to service is the law of God. The great law of love revealed in Eden, proclaimed upon Sinai, and in the new covenant written in the heart, is that which binds the human worker to the will of God. If we were left to follow our own inclinations, to go just where our will would lead us, we should fall into Satan's snare, and become possessors of his attributes. Therefore, God confines us to His will, which is high, noble, elevating. He desires that we shall patiently and wisely take up the duties of service. {ST, June 29, 1904 par. 4}

It isn't hard to identify this "law of love" as the ten commandments, from the qualification that it was proclaimed at Sinai. This same "law of love" is what Paul called the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7, which makes Ellen hard to reconcile with Paul.

According to Ellen, the covenant proclaimed at Sinai existed in Eden.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3
2: The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3: The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
According to Moses' own words, Ellen was wrong.

According to Ellen, the covenant proclaimed at Sinai is what's transferred into the hearts of the believer in the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-32
31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.
According to Jeremiah and the Word he received as "thus saith the LORD", Ellen was wrong. The new covenant isn't related to the old one from Sinai, the one taken away according to Hebrews 10:9.

Ezekiel reversed the role of the law and God's Spirit, saying that His Spirit was to enter us, and from that we would follow His judgments (Ezekiel 36:27). Yet it is an allusion to the same prophecy given to Jeremiah and quoted in Hebrews.

These are all points I had mentioned in my original post.
Yet you haven't addressed these.
Instead, you defend the writings of Ellen White that you were taught as a new Adventist, and you weren't told where these peculiar teachings came from.

Needless to say, they aren't Biblical.

Victor

 

[Sophia7]

I won't go back there and haven't been back there since I said I was done. I really am done. It's a pit bull arena.

But Sophia, if you're going to be critical of people that change their minds, I ought to bump some of Tall's dramatic goodbye threads here on CF.

My problem was never with the fact that you changed your mind; it was with the fact that you told me that you hadn't gone back there and hadn't read my posts yourself even though I knew that you had because I had seen OneYellowSock there.

 

[TrustAndObey]

My problem was never with the fact that you changed your mind; it was with the fact that you told me that you hadn't gone back there and hadn't read my posts yourself even though I knew that you had because I had seen OneYellowSock there.

Sophia....your problem IS with the fact that I changed my mind, but you have to say differently or the reflection comes back on someone within your own household.

Your soliciting for people to come here was BEFORE I signed on as OneYellowSock...check the dates.

I was PMd with your comments, and I did not originally see them myself.

I went to CARM to check it out for myself and I really won't be back....but I did originally change my mind about going there...so SUE me!

 

[TrustAndObey]

I see you edited your post...you must've checked the dates.

 

[Sophia7]

Sophia....your problem IS with the fact that I changed my mind, but you have to say differently or the reflection comes back on someone within your own household.

Your soliciting for people to come here was BEFORE I signed on as OneYellowSock...check the dates.

I was PMd with your comments, and I did not originally see them myself.

I went to CARM to check it out for myself and I really won't be back....but I did originally change my mind about going there...so SUE me!

I never told people to come here--not that it would matter because it's not against the rules. I don't care if you changed your mind.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Your decisions are what you choose to adide by. I don't make them for you, and I am not accountable for them.

Your responses have devolved to the point that there is little relation to either the OP or to the reponse that I wrote near the top of the thread.

The OP is about the Torah written on the heart and I contend that it's the SAME Torah written on Abraham's heart, so I'm totally on-topic Victor.

Moses wrote about all these events AFTER the fact. When he wrote about Abraham and used the words "Commandment" and "Law" (Gen 26:5), he already knew about the Commandments on stone.

Now if Abraham kept a different set of Commandments and Torah....show me from scripture. Otherwise I think it's perfectly acceptable for me to conclude that it's the same will that God has always had for His people.

I can connect the dots and see where "Mitsvah" and "Towrah" have been used in other scriptures.

Your contention that it wasn't the same as given to Abraham's seed has no foundation and you can't prove your point at all.

So, please allow me to cut through the chase and get to the bottom line. The foundation for the thought you present isn't coming from the Scriptures - it is coming from Ellen White. Even though you haven't read her writings (as you have claimed before), you are instructed according to the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. Imbedded in Fundamental Belief #10 is the undefined coded phrase "law of love". You can search the Bible from cover to cover and never figure out what this means. However, this joins several other fundies that are rooted in Ellen instead of the Bible:

You should tell the Seventh-day Baptists that they follow Ellen White too then probably....and any other church that keeps God's fourth commandment.

Let's really cut to the chase...you have absolutely no problem with the other 9 commandments and you know it.

The yoke that binds to service is the law of God. The great law of love revealed in Eden, proclaimed upon Sinai, and in the new covenant written in the heart, is that which binds the human worker to the will of God. If we were left to follow our own inclinations, to go just where our will would lead us, we should fall into Satan's snare, and become possessors of his attributes. Therefore, God confines us to His will, which is high, noble, elevating. He desires that we shall patiently and wisely take up the duties of service. {ST, June 29, 1904 par. 4}

Oh you're absolutely right Victor, I would never have figured out that God's law existed before Sinai on my own. I needed Ellen and so do the Seventh-day Baptists and some of the Churches of God, too?

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that God was not pleased when Cain murdered his brother. That wasn't His will.

Do you think God is like my old boss that enacts rules AFTER someone breaks them and then retroactively enforces them?

This isn't the first time someone has pulled the Ellen White card on me when they just cannot understand why I disagree with them. I DO disagree with you Victor and this thread asked for the Adventist perspective of the Towrah...which is what I gave. You just don't LIKE it.

It isn't hard to identify this "law of love" as the ten commandments, from the qualification that it was proclaimed at Sinai. This same "law of love" is what Paul called the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7, which makes Ellen hard to reconcile with Paul.

Minstration of death as in sacrifices and the shed of innocent blood, Victor. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for us!!

When Adam and Eve sinned, an animal was killed to cover them. Sin brings death.

According to Ellen, the covenant proclaimed at Sinai existed in Eden.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3
2: The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3: The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
According to Moses' own words, Ellen was wrong.

According to Ellen, the covenant proclaimed at Sinai is what's transferred into the hearts of the believer in the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-32
31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.
According to Jeremiah and the Word he received as "thus saith the LORD", Ellen was wrong. The new covenant isn't related to the old one from Sinai, the one taken away according to Hebrews 10:9.

Ezekiel reversed the role of the law and God's Spirit, saying that His Spirit was to enter us, and from that we would follow His judgments (Ezekiel 36:27). Yet it is an allusion to the same prophecy given to Jeremiah and quoted in Hebrews.

These are all points I had mentioned in my original post.
Yet you haven't addressed these.
Instead, you defend the writings of Ellen White that you were taught as a new Adventist, and you weren't told where these peculiar teachings came from.

Needless to say, they aren't Biblical.

Victor

I'm going to go get a Seventh-day Baptist friend of mine to comment on this peculiar teaching that only Ellen White taught, how's that?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I never told people to come here--not that it would matter because it's not against the rules. I don't care if you changed your mind.

Then why on earth do you keep bringing it up?

 

[TrustAndObey]

My SDB friend is not on right now, but how's this for Ellen White's peculiar teaching:

(Excerpt as not to infringe on copyright laws)

The Sabbath and Creation


The essence of Christianity is people being brought into right relationship with God. In fact, God created humans, as male and female, in order to enjoy a loving relationship with Him. God created people (Genesis 1:27) and then created the Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-4) as that period of time in which God could have our undivided attention. The Sabbath is God's gift of time for the benefit of humankind.

God created the heavens and the earth. Though the creation of the heavens and earth was complete on the sixth day of creation, there was one thing yet to be created, the Sabbath.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because in it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done (Genesis 2:1-3).

The story of God's creation of the Sabbath (Genesis 2:2,3) tells us three things that God did with the seventh day, Sabbath. (Though the word "Sabbath" does not appear in the creation story in Genesis, it is clear that the Sabbath was established.

1. God rested on the seventh day, Sabbath.
2. God blessed the seventh day, Sabbath.
3. God sanctified or made holy the seventh day, Sabbath.

God did more than merely rest on that first Sabbath. "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3). This was God's final act in His creation week. He took the last day (seventh day) of the creation week and set it apart as a special day by blessing it. The Sabbath is a part of the creation order, and it has its origins there. In the beginning, God created the heavens, the earth, man, and the seventh day Sabbath.


Creation and the Law


God so desired that His people know Him that He revealed to them part of His character, known as the Law or Ten Commandments. These ten words of law were God's desire for the Children of Israel and for all humankind.

The fourth of these Commandments points back to creation as the origin of the Sabbath. God commands people to keep the Sabbath because He, Himself kept the Sabbath at creation. God blessed the Sabbath and made it holy by setting the example for all mankind to rest on that day.

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Exodus 20:8-11).

God's prescription regarding the Sabbath is rather specific. God said that we should rest and remember - not one day a week - but a specific day of the week, the seventh day. God specifically said that the "seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord thy God" (Exodus 20:10). The seventh day Sabbath belongs to God. People can do what they wish on the first day of the week (Sunday) but it is the seventh day Sabbath which is the Lord's day according to Exodus 20:10.

We see from Exodus 20:11 that the foundation of the fourth commandment is God's act of creation, "in the beginning." The Sabbath is not based merely on God's relationship to the Jews, but it is based on His relationship to all of creation. There are five things to emphasize in the Fourth Commandment.

1. God tells us that the seventh day is the Sabbath. 2. God commands us to remember the Sabbath day. 3. God commands us to keep the Sabbath holy. 4. God commands us to rest on the Sabbath. 5. "Sabbath to the Lord" is a day dedicated to Him.
Why are we to keep the Sabbath holy? The Fourth Commandment goes on to tell us why.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:11)

We are to keep the Sabbath holy and rest, because God kept the Sabbath holy and rested on that day. The Sabbath is holy because God "made it holy" at creation. We are to rest on the Sabbath because God set the example for Sabbath rest at creation.


Jesus and the Sabbath


The Ten Commandments are an expression of God's very nature and will, which is unchangeable. Jesus Christ did not come to change even the smallest portion of the moral law (Matthew 5:17,18). Some say that Christ changed the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week. That would require a change in the law. The moral law says that "the seventh day is the Sabbath" and not the first day of the week. In no place does the Bible tell us of this change in the law from the seventh to the first day of the week.

The Sabbath was the commandment most corrupted by the Pharisees. So, it is not surprising that it was over Sabbath-keeping that Jesus would have most of his conflict with the Pharisees. The Sabbath issue between Christ and the Pharisees is never over which day to worship or over whether the Sabbath was still part of God's desire for man. The issue for Christ was the way in which the Sabbath was being kept and the Phariseesí attitude toward the Sabbath.

The most powerful statement regarding Christ's commitment to the Sabbath is found in Mark 2:27 and 28. "And he was saying to them, The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'" The climax of Jesus' statement comes when he says that he is Lord of the Sabbath day. This means that Jesus has the authority over all the circumstances regarding the Sabbath. Christians should be taught that Jesus Christ can arrange circumstances in order to provide for people the opportunity to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy. God wants our undivided attention on the seventh day Sabbath, and He will use the resources of His kingdom to make this possible.

The story of creation in Genesis gives the origin of the Sabbath but it does not give the reason for God's creation of the Sabbath. However, a clue to the purpose of the Sabbath is given in the fact that the Sabbath was created right after man's creation. Perhaps the Sabbath was created by God with man in mind.

The fact that the Sabbath was made for man is stated clearly by Jesus Christ, the Creator of the Sabbath. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27). Here Jesus is addressing the Pharisees who are condemning Him for breaking the Pharisaic rules regarding the Sabbath. There are four things which can be learned from this message from the mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

First, the Sabbath was made. This is a clear reference back to Genesis 2 showing that the Sabbath was a part of the perfect creation order. The Sabbath existed from the very beginning as the final part of God's creation. This reference would also serve as a reminder to the Pharisees that the Sabbath was created by God and not by them.

Second, the Sabbath was made for man. Right after the creation of man, God made the Sabbath. (See Genesis 1 and 2.) Jesus, the Creator of the Sabbath, says that the Sabbath was created with all mankind in mind. The Sabbath does not have its origins in the Law. Its origins go back to creation. The Sabbath was not a Jewish Sabbath alone, because "the Sabbath was made for man" and not for just the Jews. When the Sabbath was created in the beginning there were no Jews. This is the clear message of Jesus in this New Testament text.

Third, "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." At the time of Jesus, the Pharisees had lost the meaning of the Sabbath. God had created the Sabbath for man's benefit, but the Pharisees had reversed the meaning. For the Pharisees, the Sabbath was more important than man, and they believed that God had created man to keep the Sabbath.

Fourth, "the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath," means that Jesus Christ was and is the one who is in authority over the Sabbath. There would be no need for him to declare his Lordship if he planned to abolish it in the near future with his death. But because he is Lord of the Sabbath, he can and will bring all of his resourses to bear to empower us and to work our circumstances so that we can keep his day holy.

The Sabbath was created for our benefit. Jesus' life, death, and ministry did not change the original meaning and purpose of the Sabbath. But Jesus did attack the Pharisees for the way they had changed the original meaning and purpose of God's holy day.

Jesus Christ Kept the Sabbath


In every area of life, we look to Christ as our supreme example. We believe in baptism because of the example of Christ and the apostles and the command of God. And so it is with the Sabbath. We have the example of Christ and the apostles and the Ten Commandments of God written on the tables of stone and on our hearts. And yet, the majority of Christianity has chosen the tradition of man.

"He (Jesus) went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). The word of God tells that Jesus was a Sabbathkeeper. It was the Son of God who blessed and sanctified the Sabbath at creation by resting. This rest was the first example that Adam and Eve had in the Garden. When the Son of God became flesh, he once again set the example for Sabbathkeeping.

 

[TrustAndObey]

My friend is going to get a kick out of your comments about this teaching stemming straight from Ellen White considering the SDB church was around before the Adventist church.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The first recorded Seventh Day Baptist meeting was at The Mill Yard Church, formed in London in 1653 under the leadership of Dr. Peter Chamberlen.

I'm thinking Ellen White wasn't even alive when this church formed, Victor.

Sorry.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Do I have to belong to a tribe to be in the institution of marriage since it was given directly to Adam and Eve and I wasn't there?

Anybody?

I didn't agree to the covenant of the rainbow and I wasn't there for that one either....but I still see rainbows after it rains. Yikes!

 

[thecountrydoc]

The Ten Commandments are not multipal choice.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The Ten Commandments are not multipal choice.

Sure they are, Doc! That's why they're called The Ten Really, Really Good SUGGESTIONS!