I'd actually like to ask you the same thing.
I'm so aggravated because I typed up a post and it went poof into cyber space.
I'll try again, but it's going to be shorter this time.
Okay, let me ask you this....
You mentioned that Abraham had the moral law, but what about Noah?
Noah knew the difference between the clean and unclean animals long before Moses was even born and before the clean/unclean animals were recorded in the book of the law. How?
The sacrificial system basics were known since Adam's time as we see with Cain and Abel. The clean and unclean animals originally had nothing to do with eating animals as animals were not given as food until after the flood.
Now,
The law of Moses was the law given to Moses.
Some of it had ALREADY been given in the sacrificial system. Some was known by the gentiles through the conscience.
But as a whole the law of Moses was not given until the time of the Israelites.
There are portions of the law of Moses which highlight moral requirements. These were known before Moses and continue after Moses, but not as the law of Moses but as imperatives given in the NT, and more specifically as the natural outgrowth of the Spirit.
Was that a "moral" law written on the heart? Tithing is mentioned long before the birth of Moses too. Is that a moral law?
If the sacrificial system was a moral law it would still be around.
Tithing was done once by Abraham after the story with Lot. It is not mentioned as a command to Gentiles in the NT.
Does it have to come before the law written on stone and/or before the book of the law in order to be what you call a moral law? If not, do the things mentioned before the book of the law still stand?
A. A moral law cannot just come into existence. It is based on a moral principle that transcends time. So yes, it had to pre-date.
B. Not everything that pre-dated Moses was a moral law either. The sacrificial system was not a moral law but a provision for sin. The Sacrifice is now made and no more sacrifice for sin is necessary.
Without law there isn't sin. We only NEED grace because there is law.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
There was death in the world before the law of Moses was delivered. There was SIN in the world before the law of Moses was delivered. They were transgressing the law that God placed in their conscience. But they did not have a direct command as did Adam. Their sin was not the same as the transgression of Adam.
The law on stone was given so that what was sinful would be recognized as clearly as when Adam transgressed by breaking a known command. It increased the trespass.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
What are you calling the moral law? Jeremiah and Paul said the "law" is written on our hearts, so should we even be having this argument? Shouldn't we both feel the same way?
Jeremiah was speaking of the covenant with Israel. Gentiles were told they do not need to keep the law of MOSES. But they have the righteous requirements of the law written on their heart.
That is the same requirements that Paul says the gentiles kept before Christ was revealed.
What about the people that don't believe that God even exists that don't murder each other or have sex with animals? Was it written on their hearts too?
What does Paul say?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
They rejected what God revealed.
Christ fought for it, and went to the synagogue, healed on that day and said it was LAWFUL to do so, but you don't think it's mentioned anywhere in the NT for Gentiles? Come on Tall, that's the biggest stretch of them all!
Actually no it is not. It WAS lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Pharisees had misconstrued it. But telling the Pharisees (who were Jews btw) how to keep the Sabbath is not telling Gentiles that they should.
Paul lists it among the things that were in the law of Moses that were not required. It is not listed in the fruits of the Spirit.
There was no command for Gentiles to keep it. And it was expressly said to be a sign between God and Israel,.
He calls it "the Sabbath". Why not just the seventh day?
Because it was the Sabbath. Christ came as a Jew born under law. He kept every command. Are you going to be consistent and keep the whole law of Moses or not?
Or are you going to believe the church when they said Gentiles do not have to?
Didn't we already agree that we ARE Jews?
We have been grafted in. We have also been told we don't have to keep the whole mosaic law. You may believe it or you may keep the whole law.
God also referred to it as "MY holy day". Did Christ's death make something holy suddenly unholy?
If my reasons for obeying God aren't in an effort to "earn" anything, am I seriously doing something wrong by giving Him an entire day out of each week?
You are not required to keep the Mosaic law to be a Christian. If you WANT to that is completely up to you.
If you hadn't been raised by Christian parents, do you think you would've worshipped God instinctively?
Are you saying Paul was wrong?
Sabbath was around in the creation of the world. A day of rest. Hebrews 4 tells us to rest AS God rested and specifically mentions the seventh day.
Yet you have not addressed my point on t being a creation ordinance earlier. Why not?
And as to Hebrews 4 we can get into that in a bit. It does not at all support Sabbath keeping.
I disagree, from the minute they were called they started going to the synagogues on Sabbath. The law is a mirror. Paul said he wouldn't have known jealousy was a sin if it hadn't been for "thou shalt not covet" and he was a Roman.
Paul was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin.
The Gentiles Paul is talking about in Romans 2 were BEFORE Christ. And they were not spontaneously keeping Sabbath.
We take everything else Christ said as Gospel, but not that it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath?
Of course it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. And I never said otherwise. But that in no way tells Gentiles to keep it. If you think it does then keep all the rest of the law that Christ kept.
What makes them a "righteous Gentile"?
Gentiles don't instinctively start believing in Supreme existence Tall. My children know about Jesus through me and my husband. I know about Jesus through my parents. If I had been raised by atheist parents I imagine I wouldn't believe in God even today.
Are you saying Paul was wrong?
God called the seventh day His holy day. Did that change? If so, when?
God called it a sign with Israel.
And the church said we don't have to keep the Mosaic law. Did that change? If so, when?
And if not then you better be keeping all of it, not just the parts you like.
), there have only been a couple that have been substantive. I could bump these as a means of making a conclusion, as the points reflected in them haven't been challenged with substance.
