Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

[tall73]

see below

 

[tall73]

The part you're neglecting to mention is that the JUDGING by our fellow man was in the Law of Moses, stoning each other, etc. We can't judge each other and stone each other anymore.

If you think that there is a reference to judging on whether to stone people that is up to you to show. Earlier you said it was the church that judges.

If the "body of Christ" is a reference to the body of Christ judging then it is clear that the body of Christ already DID judge on this issue and said the gentiles don't need to keep the law of Moses.

In fact no matter what you do with this passage the church in council already said the gentiles don't have to keep those feasts.

Food is a shadow of things to come....does that mean we don't NEED it? Just because men can't judge us for what we eat, do we not need TO eat?

The Sabbath was written on stone. Do you really think Paul would use one verse to tell the Colossians that they don't have to keep God's holy day anymore?

Were their (the Colossians) consequences the same as the children of Israel if they broke the commandments? No way, Christ paid the debt of sin and it is no longer punishable by our OWN deaths, through each other.

I could go gather sticks on the Sabbath and I'm pretty sure no one would stone me for it, but it doesn't mean I didn't break a commandment of God.

Gentiles don't have to keep the law of Moses. It says it plain as day in Acts 15.

Is it then your position that the elders, apostles and the Holy Spirit were wrong when they said that the gentiles don't have to keep the whole law of Moses?

The feasts were indeed part of the law of Moses and do not have to be kept by gentiles.

 

[tall73]

That little word "but" can also mean AND. AND the body of the Christ. It's talking about the Christ's church....His people.

Individuals cannot judge, but the church CAN. There are other verses that say that in scripture as you well know.
[/size]

Here you indicated that it was the church that judges. And they already did in Acts 15. It is the only issue where we see such a council, with representatives from the elders, and the apostles, from largely gentile churches and from largely Jewish churches. And the Holy Spirit was said to agree as well. They decided that Gentiles did not need to keep the whole law of Moses. This is likely the clearest example of the church judging that we have in the NT.

Now if Gentiles don't have to keep the feasts, then why should they be judged by anyone on it, whether they decide to keep it or not?

 

[TrustAndObey]

You seem to take the position that the "body of Christ" is a reference to the body of Christ judging.
Now the body of Christ already DID judge on this issue and said the gentiles don't need to keep the law of Moses.

So when God called the Sabbath "MY holy day", did He mean to say "MOSES' holy day"?

When He told us to give thanks to Him after a meal (food) for the abundance of His earth, did He mean Moses' earth?

Just because Moses wrote the Ten Commandments down in the book of the law along with the ceremonial law does not mean they're considered the Law of Moses.

"Thus sayeth the LORD", not "thus sayeth Moses".

Once again, address the context. If you hold that it is the body of Christ judging then they did that. Gentiles don't have to keep the law of Moses. It says it plain as day.

Any stretches to make it say something else are just that. It says they don't have to keep the whole law of Moses.

The problem is that you're lumping God's law on stone with the Law of Moses. Skip the feasts for a second, because I'm still studying this out, and tell me why Paul still refers to it as the Sabbath at all Tall?

Why just those four things...food/drink, holydays, new moons, and Sabbaths? There's a whole lot more to the Law of Moses than that! And again, the Sabbath isn't a law given by Moses...it was sanctified by God long before Moses was even born. MY holy day.

You say I'm stretching, but brother, you can't see it when you do it yourself.

Is the seventh day God's holy day or Moses' holy day? The sabbaths within the feasts...did God proclaim them as a holy day unto Him or to Moses?

 

[tall73]

So when God called the Sabbath "MY holy day", did He mean to say "MOSES' holy day"?

When He told us to give thanks to Him after a meal (food) for the abundance of His earth, did He mean Moses' earth?

Just because Moses wrote the Ten Commandments down in the book of the law along with the ceremonial law does not mean they're considered the Law of Moses.

"Thus sayeth the LORD", not "thus sayeth Moses".

True or false, the feasts were part of the law of Moses?

The problem is that you're lumping God's law on stone with the Law of Moses. Skip the feasts for a second, because I'm still studying this out, and tell me why Paul still refers to it as the Sabbath at all Tall?

One cannot just skip the feasts. They are included in the text and are a clear example of what has been decided on. Paul lumps them in with the Sabbath as things not to judge upon.

And he calls it the Sabbath because that is what the Jews kept and the gentiles were being judged on. There is no indication that the Jewish Christians stopped keeping the law. James says they were zealous for it, and even arranged for Paul to offer sacrifices for a vow.

But the gentiles on the other hand they said did not have to keep it.

Why just those four things...food/drink, holydays, new moons, and Sabbaths? There's a whole lot more to the Law of Moses than that! And again, the Sabbath isn't a law given by Moses...it was sanctified by God long before Moses was even born. MY holy day.

You say I'm stretching, but brother, you can't see it when you do it yourself.

Is the seventh day God's holy day or Moses' holy day? The sabbaths within the feasts...did God proclaim them as a holy day unto Him or to Moses?

Because those were the things people were being judged upon in that church.

Now saying that people proclaimed a holy day to Moses is of course missing the point. The law of Moses CONTAINED laws that referred to God. Moses was no one's god. The law of Moses related to God. But the feasts were clearly in the law of Moses. And gentiles were not required to keep the law of Moses. And here Paul says they are not to be judged on these things....and lists the Sabbath along with the feasts.

Seems clear enough.

 

[tall73]

Now as to the Sabbath and when it was made holy, notice what the text says, and what it does not say:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The Sabbath was not immediately blessed, but after the fact of the resting.

Adventists have often said that Exodus is referring to the words in Genesis. But is this true? Exodus 20 was recounting the SPOKEN words of God Himself during the covenant initiation. Verse one says:

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,

Moses is recounting the blessing of it by referring to the words of God Himself, delivered at Sinai. He appears to be referencing a future event in the midst of a narrative.

As Canright pointed out, Moses does something similar when he makes reference to the naming of Eve as the mother of all the living before she had become such:

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now notice the following about the text in Genesis:

a. There is no reference to man resting on the seventh-day. In fact they were just made and had nothing to rest from. It was God's rest from His creative activities.

b. No command was given for resting here. No restrictions were outlined, and indeed no involvement of man was mentioned, as cited above. It was God who rested, and not man. No indication is made of Adam and Eve resting from here on out.

d. There is no reference of any Sabbath observance until Exo. 16. There it appears to be introduced as something foreign. Now undoubtedly the Israelites had been in bondage. So it may be foreign for that reason. But there is no indication of it being pre-existing. And why would God not introduce it immediately upon their exit from Egypt instead of letting them trample this "moral" law for a whole month after coming out of bondage if it was in place?


They left on the 15th of Abib, and then the first giving of the Sabbath was at least on the 15th of the next month. So God did not tell them of this moral law and allowed them to trample it?

Or simply it was not in existence until he gave it to them in the wilderness.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses,
Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

God highlights the Sabbath among all the commands as a sign with Israel.

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

God plainly says it was a sign between God and Israel, not God and the world. It was strongly associated with the two tablets of stone, which was the covenant document that was at the center of the covenant with Israel, not the world.

Moreover the second reason for giving the Sabbath in Deuteronomy is clearly aimed at Israel, not the world:

Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

No one was brought out of Egypt but the Israelites in this way. Therefore the Sabbath was given to them as a sign.

The Sabbath then was not just a sign with Israel regarding God's creation but His redemption of them as a people. It was at the heart of the covenant, a sign of loyalty to Him as their ruler.

Later in Ezekiel we see the theme reiterated--God brought out Israel, gave them His statutes and made a sign of the Sabbath.


Eze 20:10 So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.
Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Eze 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes but rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned. "Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them.


This says when God gave the Sabbaths--after He brought them out of Egypt.

Note that it says He gave the rules by which a man may live. AND He gave them the Sabbaths as a sign between Him and them.

The Sabbaths were in addition to the other laws and were specifically said to be a sign between God and Israel.

Now in the NT the gentiles are told they need not keep the law of Moses. And Paul says don't let anyone judge you in regards to the feasts, the new moon and the Sabbath.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Care to explain Acts 15:21?

It appears the Gentiles were going to synagogue on Sabbath then. When did that change?

 

[tall73]

Care to explain Acts 15:21?

It appears the Gentiles were going to synagogue on Sabbath then. When did that change?

Actually it does not say the gentiles are going to the synagogue on Sabbath every week, though I think some likely were. It says Moses is preached in every city FROM ANCIENT TIMES on the Sabbath every week.

There were no Christians or Gentile Christians in ancient times.

Commentators have variously interpreted what he means to say a number of things.

Some think he is saying that the law is in no danger from Gentiles not keeping all of it. Some to say that there are Jewish communities all over that the gentiles must not offend and that these regulations would prevent that, etc.

Whatever it means it was not included in the letter that went out to the actual gentiles for instruction.

Moreover synagogue attendance is not Sabbath keeping. It is going to the synagogue. And synagogue attendance changed in different places in different times depending on how they were treated. In Paul's travels they often were put out of the synagogue pretty early. In other places this didn't happen until later. There were gentiles who went to the synagogue, some who were not even Christian, according to Acts, and some who were.

 

[tall73]

Now I want to point out the bearing of the feasts on the rest of the point.

The feasts are a clear example of something that was not required. By including them in his list of things not to to let people judge you by he indicates his meaning.

Some would say that the passage is telling Gentiles they should keep the feasts or Sabbath, etc.

But it simply says don't let anyone judge you. In light of the the council decision by the whole church which made it clear the feasts are not required at best this passage is saying it is up to them if they want to keep the things listed, or how they want to keep them.

It is not a matter to judge upon because the feasts were simply not required of gentiles. And it is into this category--things left up to discretion- that the Sabbath is placed by its being mentioned in the same argument.

 

[TrustAndObey]

In Acts 13, there's no denying that they went to the synagogue on Sabbath.

In 1 John 2:6 we're told to walk as He walked....Jesus kept over 1000 Sabbaths.

We are all one in Christ Jesus.

(Not feeling well, I'll post a better post later)

 

[VictorC]

I'm still hoping you are willing to address the questions in this post.
Victor

Perhaps you have forgotten the primary text this thread was started from, in seeking to identify the contents of the new covenant mentioned in Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31.

Anytime you like, you can address the text of Hebrews 10:9:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The epistle to the Hebrews explains the change in covenants to those who had received the first, apart from the Gentile nations.

What was the "first"?
What was the disposition of the "first"?
What was the reason of that disposition of the "first"?

The text from Hebrews 7:18-19 ought to make this task simple:

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I'll give you the bottom line: this epistle waves bye-bye to the tables of stone that are elsewhere referred to as the "ministration of death" (2 Corinthians 3:7).

Victor

 

[tall73]

In Acts 13, there's no denying that they went to the synagogue on Sabbath.

Indeed the whole city came out to hear Paul. And then when the Jewish population there resisted the message he went to the gentiles.

Paul always began his ministry in the synagogue when one was present, or in Philippi at a place of prayer. That was where the Jews and God-fearing gentiles were that already had a familiarity with the Scriptures. I also think he went there to worship as Paul never renounced keeping the law, neither did James, etc. But they made it clear it was not required for the Gentile.

And in each town when resistance grew too great they would use other means:

Act 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Act 19:9 But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus.
Act 19:10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

And

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Act 18:5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
Act 18:7 And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue.

In the passage you reference we see the same trend:

Act 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Act 13:49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region.

 

[tall73]

In 1 John 2:6 we're told to walk as He walked...

The emphasis in the letter is on false teachers who proclaim that they are Christian but are not because they do wickedly. We find out in the course of the letter that they eventually left the community altogether.

1Jo 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

They appeared to be in the light but were walking in darkness. Because they were so persuasive John is warning the believers against them.


1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.


He stresses that the false teachers did not follow the example of Jesus.

1Jo 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1Jo 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jo 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
1Jo 2:9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.
1Jo 2:10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.
1Jo 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

The particular command referenced above is love for your neighbor.

He clarifies shortly after:

1Jo 2:26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

They were deceiving them about the nature of Christ, saying He did not come in the flesh, and they were living unrighteously. Most scholars believe they had taken a proto-gnostic view that the body did not matter, so do what you like with it, as we see in Corinth.

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

John wrote to prevent their Christological heresy and their unrighteous actions from influencing the true Christians. One of the key issues was that the teachers were unrighteous in their course:

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

He again underscores the fact that the false teachers were wicked and did not love their brother:

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

John again underscores the key issue, love for your neighbor:

1Jo 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.


The false teachers lived in wickedness, denied that Christ came in the flesh, were not truly Christian and hated their neighbor. They now had left and John was writing to comfort the church and warn them from being confused by them.

 

[tall73]

Jesus kept over 1000 Sabbaths.

He also, as a law keeping member of the Jewish community, kept a number of Passovers, had tassles on His garments in keeping with the law, etc.

But Acts still says the Gentiles did not have to keep the law of Moses. You don't do all that is in the Torah. And you don't have to.

He also died on a cross for the sins of the world. But no one is suggesting you do that. Walking as He walked was said in a particular letter for a particular reason.

 

[TrustAndObey]

He also, as a law keeping member of the Jewish community, kept a number of Passovers, had tassles on His garments in keeping with the law, etc.

But Acts still says the Gentiles did not have to keep the law of Moses. You don't do all that is in the Torah. And you don't have to.

He also died on a cross for the sins of the world. But no one is suggesting you do that. Walking as He walked was said in a particular letter for a particular reason.

Not that the world needs another Savior, but I DID die with Christ in baptism. That was a tacky analogy. I know you don't care for me, but don't use bad form in trying to prove me wrong.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm still not feeling well, so I don't want to dive into any "new" perspective head first, plus I'm just pretty much thinking out loud here anyway so take it easy on me...

But did you notice that the Pharisees ask about circumcision and then the council answers about avoiding pollution of idols, blood, and sexual immorality.

All of those things are temple-related, as in our bodies.

I would think that anything "thus saith the Lord" would be a given and didn't need reiterating?

The feasts weren't a burden at that point anyway. They weren't centered around sacrifices and ceremony anymore. In fact, Jesus said people didn't have to go to Jerusalem to keep them anymore either (can't remember the chapter).

Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. Gotta go.

 

[tall73]

Not that the world needs another Savior, but I DID die with Christ in baptism. That was a tacky analogy. I know you don't care for me, but don't use bad form in trying to prove me wrong.

It is simply pointing out that you are not to do everything that Christ did and were never meant to.

It is an illustration of the flaw in your initial argument that the statement saying we are to walk as Christ did implies we should keep the Sabbath. We are not in every respect like Christ. The message to walk as Christ did had a meaning in the original context that it was in. It was not written regarding the Sabbath. And there are a number of things that Christ did that will never apply to us.

Addressing arguments is not a personal attack, nor is it tacky.

 

[tall73]

I'm still not feeling well, so I don't want to dive into any "new" perspective head first, plus I'm just pretty much thinking out loud here anyway so take it easy on me...

But did you notice that the Pharisees ask about circumcision and then the council answers about avoiding pollution of idols, blood, and sexual immorality.

All of those things are temple-related, as in our bodies.

I would think that anything "thus saith the Lord" would be a given and didn't need reiterating?

The feasts weren't a burden at that point anyway. They weren't centered around sacrifices and ceremony anymore. In fact, Jesus said people didn't have to go to Jerusalem to keep them anymore either (can't remember the chapter).

Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. Gotta go.

They didn't have to keep the law of Moses. It says it plainly. The feasts were part of the law of Moses.

 

[TrustAndObey]

It is simply pointing out that you are not to do everything that Christ did and were never meant to.

It is an illustration of the flaw in your initial argument that the statement saying we are to walk as Christ did implies we should keep the Sabbath. We are not in every respect like Christ. The message to walk as Christ did had a meaning in the original context that it was in. It was not written regarding the Sabbath. And there are a number of things that Christ did that will never apply to us.

Addressing arguments is not a personal attack, nor is it tacky.

What do you think baptism is symbolic OF, Tall?

We should be able to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. We should see that sort of thing for God every day, but we don't. We're dropping the ball just like the children of Jacob did.

They didn't have to keep the law of Moses. It says it plainly. The feasts were part of the law of Moses.

There's some verses in Romans I want to run past you, but I have to get the kids up and ready for school. BBL

 

[tall73]

What do you think baptism is symbolic OF, Tall?

Death and resurrection to new life.

But baptism does not make you the sacrifice for the sins of the world.