Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[BobRyan]

Thank you for the quotations from Ellen White on this thread. When all is said and done it is her words that speak for her denomination.

The 28 fundamental beliefs are what speak for our denomination since it is not true that all SDAs affirm the prophetic ministry of Ellen White. non-SDAs may choose to imagine something else and they have free will to do so .. but that is not the position of the denomination. What is more even some here opposing the SDA view appear to be a bit self-conflicted in their statements. We will see which way they finally go on some of these points.

 

[tall73]

Thank you for the quotations from Ellen White on this thread. When all is said and done it is her words that speak for her denomination.

Agreed.

You might find these quotes informative as well. Ellen White sees satan in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary intercepting prayers of those who rejected the messages given by the advent movement:

What are Progressive/Evangelical views on Des Ford Investigative Judgement Thesis

Before the throne I saw the Advent people—the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory. {EW 54.2}

I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. {EW 55.1}

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. {EW 56.1}

And satan working with the "nominal" churches who can't be benefitted by Jesus anymore because they are praying to the wrong "apartment".


Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. A Firm Platform

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.


Of course the irony is that Christians don't offer prayers to an "apartment" in the first place. And if they did they would have thought Jesus was in the most holy place already, unlike Adventists who see this as happening in 1844.

 

[tall73]

The 28 fundamental beliefs are what speak for our denomination since it is not true that all SDAs affirm the prophetic ministry of Ellen White

Hey Bob.....the 28 affirm Ellen White....so.......

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Bob.....the 28 affirm Ellen White....so.......

So we generally talk about what the Bible says regarding spiritual gifts and the gift of prophecy etc. And I am pretty sure you already know that we have almost entire divisions that affirm the 1 Cor 12 doctrine on spiritual gifts and yet do not all accept that Ellen White had the spiritual gift of prophecy.

So I am not sure what your question is.

(Which is yet another reason why I don't jump all-in for the all-Ellen-White-All-the-Time form of discussion topics).

 

[ChetSinger]

The 28 fundamental beliefs are what speak for our denomination since it is not true that all SDAs affirm the prophetic ministry of Ellen White. non-SDAs may choose to imagine something else and they have free will to do so .. but that is not the position of the denomination. What is more even some here opposing the SDA view appear to be a bit self-conflicted in their statements. We will see which way they finally go on some of these points.

Not everyone who attends a Calvinist church is a Calvinist. Nevertheless, the teaching they'll receive there is Calvinist. Likewise, I see Ellen White's writings presented as authoritative SDA theology:

This gift (prophecy) is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. ​

I'm not sure if you guys understand just how heterodox this Satan-bearing-our-sins business is. This diminishes the work of Christ. This is a big deal. This is much bigger than resting on Saturday, or avoiding certain foods, which in orthodoxy are considered subject to individual conscience. This changes the atonement itself. I ask you to pause and reflect on this. Maybe Mrs. White wasn't right about absolutely everything. Has all of Christianity really been wrong about something as basic as the atonement for 2,000 years?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I don't think you are paying attention to the details - you already agreed to Christ doing that in the case of the wicked -

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that
1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ

Really?

The people of God ACCEPTED HIS GIFT. So the "final penalty" for their sin was already paid by Jesus.​

​

Too late to claim that as if it were a "Change" since you already agreed with me that Adventists teach that Jesus dies for all the sins of all mankind no matter if they are saved or not.

Which means points 1 and 2 are kind of where you are stuck so far trying to then claim that doing the same thing with saved - where Jesus paid for their sins in full - and yet still Satan has some part he owes for his part in that - is a part of the reality of the situation.

No matter how you want to view Ellen White's comments - you are stuck at that point because you already agree that Christ pays the full debt of sin for the all mankind - yet has the wicked pay the full price for their own sin in the lake of fire.

I don't see how you get out of admitting to that - yet complaining about that very same fact when Satan is the wicked person and not a human as the wicked person.

 

[BobRyan]

Because the saints accepted the payment of the Holy Son of God. No further payment was needed.

And by "further payment" you mean it would be "unfare" to have Satan pay for his part in it???

And because satan pays for his OWN sin, just as the wicked do. He doesn't pay for other people's sins, and cannot bear other people's sins as a sinner.

The wicked never pay someone else's debt to the benefit of anyone. The wicked only pay .. they cannot be a "sin offering" they cannot be "a substitute" - so since you already admitted that wicked pay their debt even though Christ paid it - and this does not 'save the wicked'. The same fact with Satan as "the wicked" changes nothing.

 

[BobRyan]

And as you have already admitted and Lev 16 states clearly
1. SDAs do not claim the scapegoat is "a sin offering"
2. Lev 16 does not ever say "the scapegoat is a sin offering"

Actually it says two goats were brought for a sin offering.

A great example of not saying "the scapegoat is a sin offering"

Since at the time - no goat is selected for the scapegoat and once the selection is made in Lev 16 - the term "sin offering" unambiguously indicates the Lord's goat in Lev 16.


"15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering" -- only one goat qualifies at that point as the "sin offering".

As already pointed out.
the point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

This quote didn't age well for you Bob. Ellen White comes right out and says satan must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus. .

You already admit that the wicked must pay their full debt of sin though Jesus has already paid it in full for all mankind.

I think you have a problem on that point making your "it is not fair to Satan" argument for why he should not owe that debt as a wicked person.

 

[BobRyan]

This quote didn't age well for you Bob. Ellen White comes right out and says satan must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus. .

You already admit that the wicked must pay their full debt of sin though Jesus has already paid it in full for all mankind.

I think you have a problem on that point making your "it is not fair to Satan" argument for why he should not owe that debt as a wicked person.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine.

This quote didn't age well for you Bob. Ellen White comes right out and says satan must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus.

She also says along with you that the wicked must bear the punishment for their own sin even though Christ paid the full debt of sin for all mankind.

Clearly the wicked do not make a "substitutionary atoning debt payment" as that quote of mine affirms whether that wicked person is Satan or a human - another point where Ellen White and you may be in agreement.

I am guessing you are not actually "trying" to highlight that part.

 

[BobRyan]

============================= post 623

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that

1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.​

At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.​

Hardly. At best that just means that Adventists have a self-contradictory theology that says Jesus paid the price, but then says Satan had to pay .

You have already admitted that the wicked pay their full debt of sin === even though Christ paid their full debt of sin on the cross - since he paid the debt of sin for all mankind in all of time.

At this point you are stuck arguing that it is unfair if Satan is another example of the wicked suffering his part of anything regarding the saints since Christ already paid the debt of the saints in full. But that is just "another example" of the wicked suffering even though Christ already paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time.

Are we simply "not supposed to notice"?

 

[BobRyan]

Not everyone who attends a Calvinist church is a Calvinist. Nevertheless, the teaching they'll receive there is Calvinist. Likewise, I see Ellen White's writings presented as authoritative SDA theology:

This gift (prophecy) is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. ​

What you don't see in any of the 28 FB is a quote from Ellen White to show that xyz doctrine is a good one --

I'm not sure if you guys understand just how heterodox this Satan-bearing-our-sins business is

I am not sure if you are following the discussion at this point at all - with that remark.

Both Tall73 and the SDAs here agree that
1. Christ paid the debt owed for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. That is not even in debate here - you might want to read some of the posts
2. The wicked pay for their full debt of sin - even though Christ already paid it -and the suffering of the wicked is not "substitutionary" it does no one any good - it relieves no one of their sin debt. And "no" that fact does not "diminish the work of Christ" or His death.
3. Satan is an example of a wicked being - his suffering also does not relieve anyone of their sin debt.

All the Adventist documents and posts so far agree that Satan's death is
1. Not a sin offering
2. Not substiutionary
3. Not salvific for anyone
4. Relieves no one of their sin debt.
5. Makes no difference in the debt paid by Christ for all the sins of all of time for all humans.

By not paying attention to the discussion you could come up with almost anything imaginable.

 

[BobRyan]

This changes the atonement itself. I ask you to pause and reflect on this. Maybe Mrs. White wasn't right about absolutely everything. Has all of Christianity really been wrong about something as basic as the atonement for 2,000 years?

I appreciate your concern but you have to first be accurate about what we teach before leaping off that ledge.

We don't teach that Satan pays any debt of sin on someone else's behalf. So then no other person "Benefits" or is relieved of suffering, or is saved, or owes no debt or anything like that when Satan or any other wicked person suffers.

The wicked pay nothing on anyone else's behalf - not even Satan. None of our Fundamental beliefs say such a thing and even those trying to bend-wrench what Ellen White wrote can't find "Satan pays this on your behalf" .. so they try to give uniformed readers "The impression" without actually having such a wild statement of fact to post.

 

[tall73]

So we generally talk about what the Bible says regarding spiritual gifts and the gift of prophecy etc. And I am pretty sure you already know that we have almost entire divisions that affirm the 1 Cor 12 doctrine on spiritual gifts and yet do not all accept that Ellen White had the spiritual gift of prophecy.

So I am not sure what your question is.

(Which is yet another reason why I don't jump all-in for the all-Ellen-White-All-the-Time form of discussion topics).

It was not complicated Bob. You say the 28 is what matters. But the 28 refer right back to Ellen White as inspired. So the poster's statement about her statements showing the Adventist view are accurate.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a big deal. This is much bigger than resting on Saturday, or avoiding certain foods, which in orthodoxy are considered subject to individual conscience.

As you note we have "actual beliefs" and they show up in our Fundamental beliefs - regarding Lev 11 and foods approved of in the Bible, regarding the seventh-day Sabbath of Ex 20:8-11 etc and we also have the firm belief that -
1. Christ paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time on the cross.
2. The wicked suffer for their own debt of sin because they refuse the gospel
3. The suffering of the wicked is not salvific, is not substitutionary, does not diminish the work of Christ.
4. Satan is a wicked being to whom that statement #3 applies in full -- whatever suffering he experiences is not done on anyone else's behalf and does not affect in any way the debt paid by Christ.

Actual Seventh-day Adventists know this is true as would anyone reading our actual statements of belief publically available.

 

[tall73]

​

Too late to claim that as if it were a "Change" since you already agreed with me that Adventists teach that Jesus dies for all the sins of all mankind no matter if they are saved or not.

I didn't dispute that Jesus died for everyone. There is no change.

Which means points 1 and 2 are kind of where you are stuck so far trying to then claim that doing the same thing with saved - where Jesus paid for their sins in full - and yet still Satan has some part he owes for his part in that - is a part of the reality of the situation.

Hardly.

The wicked refused the offer, and pay for their sins, even though Jesus paid for them. The only reason it is paid twice here is that they refused the substitute.

Those who trust in Jesus accepted the substitute. That is when your statement that satan must pay the final penalty is ridiculous. It was already paid for those who trust Jesus AND accepted.

 

[tall73]

And by "further payment" you mean it would be "unfare" to have Satan pay for his part in it???

You are back to misrepresenting what she said again Bob?

Jesus paid the price for the sins of His people.

Ellen White doesn't have satan paying for HIS sins, but for the sins of God's people.
And those are already paid for. And it is an insult to Christ that Ellen White claims they must be paid again, the final penalty.

For someone who claims to believe what Ellen White says you sure have to be corrected on what she said a lot. Almost like you don't like what she actually said.

The wicked never pay someone else's debt to the benefit of anyone.

The wicked CAN'T pay that debt, because they have their own to pay.

The wicked only pay .. they cannot be a "sin offering" they cannot be "a substitute" - so since you already admitted that wicked pay their debt even though Christ paid it -

And I already noted the people of God need not pay their debt because Christ paid it.

But then Ellen White invents a final penalty which insults Christ.

 

[tall73]

And by "further payment" you mean it would be "unfare" to have Satan pay for his part in it???

You never tire of changing what she said. She said he pays for the sins of God's people, not just his part in it.

If you can't even say what she said, then it is hardly a defense of her position.

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked refused the offer, and pay for their sins, even though Jesus paid for them.

True but the suffering of the wicked is not salvific and does not relieve anyone else of debt nor result in salvation of anyone ( which is the work of atoning sacrifice of Christ alone on the cross) nor change the debt paid by Christ.

suffering that does no good for anyone - is that debt which is paid by the wicked -- even satan. The wicked do not "help others pay for their sins".

And this is the point where you seem to be struggling.