Seventh-day Adventist denomination - said to be 5th largest Christian denomination world-wide

[BobRyan]

How many Methodist denominations?

7 methodist denominations lumped into 1 - by "some" (apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)

"There are seven World Methodist Council denominations in the United States:"
from : 10 Things Everyone Should Know about the Methodist Church.

=================

How many Presbyterian denominations?

answer: - at least three.
https://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/theologyandworship/epcecopcusa_comparisonchart_6_20_2014.pdf#:~:text=Comparison of Basic Beliefs and Viewpoints of Three,of Presbyterians (ECO), and Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC)

(apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)

======================

How many Lutheran Denominations?

List of Lutheran denominations - Wikipedia

(apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)

=================

There IS a "certain value" in comparing "Apples to Apples"

 

[BobRyan]

the SDA has a very worrisomely low retention rate.

Non-SDAs are free of course to worry about that all they wish as even non-SDA surveys list the SDA denomination as the fastest growing (which of course is NET growth). It is how the denomination adherents goes from 5 million in 1986 to 21 Million in 2020.

I can understand why non-SDAs would view low retention like that as worrisome - and I would be happy not to lose even one person.

 

[The Liturgist]

How many Methodist denominations?

7 methodist denominations lumped into 1 - by "some" (apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)

"There are seven World Methodist Council denominations in the United States:"
from : 10 Things Everyone Should Know about the Methodist Church.

=================

How many Presbyterian denominations?

answer: - at least three.
https://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/theologyandworship/epcecopcusa_comparisonchart_6_20_2014.pdf#:~:text=Comparison of Basic Beliefs and Viewpoints of Three,of Presbyterians (ECO), and Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC)

(apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)



======================

How many Lutheran Denominations?

List of Lutheran denominations - Wikipedia

(apparently ChristianityToday did not lump them)

=================

There IS a "certain value" in comparing "Apples to Apples"

Indeed there is, which is why I made two lists; the one showing you in tenth place being based on the CT methodology, and the one @tall73 is referring to which is based on the size of singular integral churches.

 

[tall73]

There IS a "certain value" in comparing "Apples to Apples"

Are you going to get around to comparing apples to apples, or just talk about the virtues of such a method?

Are these specific churches larger than the Adventist church?

the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
the Calvary Chapel
Assemblies of God in Brazil

 

[BobRyan]

Are you going to get around to comparing apples to apples, or just talk about the virtues of such a method?

I just did that in the case of Southern Bapists, Methodists, Presbyterians... shall I do it again?

 

[tall73]

I just did that in the case of Southern Bapists, Methodists, Presbyterians... shall I do it again?

Now you could apply it to the list you have been avoiding of specific churches:

Are these specific churches larger than the Adventist church?

the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
the Calvary Chapel
Assemblies of God in Brazil

 

[tall73]

The loss rate for Adventists has been growing. Earlier in the thread I referenced historical rates of 28 percent back in the late 80s, and 49 percent more recently. However, the last few years the rate is considerably higher.

2023 ANNUAL STATISTICAL REPORT

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Statistics/ASR/ASR2023.pdf

From page 10:

From page 7

2019
Accessions 1,321,047
Losses 1,107,514
Loss percentage .83

2020
Accessions 803,430
Losses 564,587
Loss percentage .70

2021
Accessions 1,069,234
Losses 789,912
Loss percentage .74

2022
Accessions 1,358,642
Losses 961,037
Loss percentage .71

Evangelism bounced back post-Covid in 2021 and 2022, but the losses are quite high as well.

 

[tall73]

Your projection of "zero growth" has failed so far. You might need "A lot more COVID" to get that to work

Adventists Are Fastest-Growing Denomination In North America – tedNEWS Network

Bob, your article is from 2011.

From page 10 of the 2023 Annual Statistical Report:

Membership in North America was negative in 2022, dropping 37,245 from the previous year.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I can only provide anecdotal support based on local observations here in Iowa. The SDA church in my home city, which was always a tight-knit group of SDA folks who had moved into the city, now has a non-native pastor. Here in Davenport, Iowa the SDA church is increasingly ethnic in make up. Its parochial school has been closed for some years. The pastor is dividing his time between the church here and a declining congregation in Muscatine, Iowa.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, people leave every church. However, the rate for Adventists has been growing. It went from around 28 leaving per 100 added in the late 80s, to 49 per hundred in 2019.

Your projection of "zero growth" has failed so far....

2011 Adventists Are Fastest-Growing Denomination In North America – tedNEWS Network

Bob, your article is from 2011.

Do you want one from each minute of the day?

The OP has statistic from 2020 published in 2021, did you read the OP?? I have highlighted the stats in read that you seem to be skimming past.

The SDA church does a lot right with evangelism. But they do have a problem with retention.

Here is one from 2015

FULL TEXT: 2015 GC Session Secretary's Report to a recent report in Christianity Today,Assemblies of God” (Christianity Today%2C Feb. 22%2C 2015)

"At the first General Conference session in 1863 in Battle Creek, Michigan, 20 delegates representing six local conferences were in attendance. At that time we had a membership of 3,500 in 125 churches, with 22 ordained ministers and eight licensed ministers.

"In contrast, the 60th General Conference session, in 2015, has 2,571 official delegates in attendance. They represent 18,479,257 Seventh-day Adventists from every continent."

hmm 3,500 ini 1863 - to 18 million in the 2015 report.

Your report below shows SDAs at almost 22 Million in 2022.

From page 10 of the 2023 Annual Statistical Report:

View attachment 344695

Membership in North America was negative in 2022, dropping 37,245 from the previous year.

22 million.

Adventist World Statistics

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Statistics/ASR/ASR2023.pdf?_gl=1*vevw8w*_ga*MTA3MjM5MTc2NS4xNzEwNTU5ODk1*_ga_2VBYH6KEBQ*MTcxMTU1MjI4NC4yLjAuMTcxMTU1MjMwNS4wLjAuOTczNTg5NDA2

"with world-wide membership of 22,234,406. God has truly blessed our Church..."

" In Chart 14 you will see that nearly every
Division’s accessions increased from 2020 to 2022, in fact, accessions
in East-Central Africa Division (ECD) increased by 108% and those in
the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division (SID) by 159%. Our church
continues to grow, thanks be to God."

The SDA church does a lot right with evangelism. But they do have a problem with retention.

I guess that is your "explanation" for how the denomination went from 18 million in 2015 to 22.2 million at the end of 2022.

You have an odd concept of numbers in that case.

You make an odd "retention" argument and then instead of showing a declining growth for membership you show trends for funding of "Missions". Has it occurred to you that the various mission "divisions" are coming online on doing their own local evangelism? Because that is what the church is actually seeing.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA church does a lot right with evangelism. But they do have a problem with retention.

The Seventh-day Adventist communion was named in 1860 and organized as a denomination at Battle Creek Michigan in 1863.

It has grown since then to be called "the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide" by ChristianityToday in Jan of 2015. (Maybe they should have said "Christian denomination worldwide")

"In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."​

​

from: Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?​

NOTE:
The numbers the SDA church has published in 2021 for 2020 is 21,723,000 baptized members and 25 million adherents.

COVID year 2020 is the first year in a long time that we fall below the "A pentecost influx of 3000+ baptisms every single day on average"
========= even before that... in 2011 "fastest growing U.S. church"

USATODAY -- 2011

Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church - USATODAY.com​

​

" Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church"​

​

"Newly released data show Seventh-day Adventism growing by 2.5% in North America, a rapid clip for this part of the world, where Southern Baptists and mainline denominations, as well as other church groups are declining. Adventists are even growing 75% faster than Mormons (1.4 percent), who prioritize numeric growth.​

​

For observers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the growth rate in North America is perplexing."​

Note: as an example: 5 million in 1986 to 21 Million in 2020
=================

That is what non-SDA independent sources say about the Seventh-day Adventist church.

For Adventists the key is
1. Sola Scriptura testing of all "Fundamental Beliefs" when sharing our faith and welcoming people into this denomination. Every one of the FB must stand or fall based on scripture.
2. Accepting both the literal and symbolic elements in the Bible

• Literal Creation week, Literal pre-mill appearing of Christ, literal rapture taking the saints to heaven as per John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:13-18
• Literal lake of fire event in Rev 20
• Literal bodily resurrection of Christ

4. Full acceptance of the "one God in three persons" doctrine of scripture
5. Full acceptance of "One Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 in both OT and NT where "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. And that Gospel is the New Covenant Gospel and is summarized as "saved by grace through faith".
6. A world wide educational, evangelistic and Healthcare network
7. Focus on the last warning message given to the world in Rev 14 "The Three Angel's Messages". A mission like Noah, like John the baptizer... etc a final message for mankind from Rev 14 and 18 prior to the Rev 16 plagues and Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

I may add more to this list later.
=================================

Since there is apparently "some confusion" as to what a denomination IS -- an example is given here to assist the objective unbiased reader.

from: Southern Baptist Convention - Wikipedia

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a Christian denomination based in the United States. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination, and the largest Protestant[2][3] and second-largest Christian denomination in the United States"

Fast Facts - SBC.net
14,089,947 members

There are of course other Baptist denominations and some of them do not allow for open communion with Southern Baptists, so in general they do not all consider themselves to be part of "the Southern Baptist" denomination as it is referenced above.

So I reject the idea that ChristianityToday is in some way "dishonest" or "evil" due to the choices they make for how to categorize groups .. Different people will wish to do it differently - I am ok with people having differences.

Are these specific churches larger than the Adventist church?

the Calvary Chapel

Calvary chapel is not a denomination and has no structure outside of the local congregation - each congregation is fully independent.

(association of autonomous churches led by pastors)
Being a "member" just means "you attend" a congregation so they count the number of congregations for their statistics not the number of members.

 

[tall73]

Your projection of "zero growth" has failed so far....

2011 Adventists Are Fastest-Growing Denomination In North America – tedNEWS Network




Do you want one from each minute of the day?

The OP has statistic from 2020 published in 2021, did you read the OP?? I have highlighted the stats in read that you seem to be skimming past.

I was quoting your post regarding North America, and the 2.5 percent growth rate cited there.

I noted that is not the case now, and the NAD lost members in 2022. (Though actually, more the results of a longer-term audit).

I also pointed out I did not predict zero growth earlier, but as far as the NAD, it has hit it notwithstanding my lack of predictions for such.

Here is one from 2015

FULL TEXT: 2015 GC Session Secretary's Report to a recent report in Christianity Today,Assemblies of God” (Christianity Today%2C Feb. 22%2C 2015)

"At the first General Conference session in 1863 in Battle Creek, Michigan, 20 delegates representing six local conferences were in attendance. At that time we had a membership of 3,500 in 125 churches, with 22 ordained ministers and eight licensed ministers.

"In contrast, the 60th General Conference session, in 2015, has 2,571 official delegates in attendance. They represent 18,479,257 Seventh-day Adventists from every continent."

hmm 3,500 ini 1863 - to 18 million in the 2015 report.

Your report below shows SDAs at almost 22 Million in 2022.

Indeed Bob, and my comments you quoted above were in regards to the NAD, because I was responding to the article you posted about the NAD.

But I also did post numbers that show an increasing retention problem worldwide, though not yet negative growth.

Going from 28 leaving for 100 coming in to 49 per 100, and now in the last few years over 70 per 100 does indicate a worsening retention problem.

" In Chart 14 you will see that nearly every
Division’s accessions increased from 2020 to 2022, in fact, accessions
in East-Central Africa Division (ECD) increased by 108% and those in
the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division (SID) by 159%. Our church
continues to grow, thanks be to God."


I guess that is your "explanation" for how the denomination went from 18 million in 2015 to 22.2 million at the end of 2022.

You have an odd concept of numbers in that case.

You make an odd "retention" argument and then instead of showing a declining growth for membership you show trends for funding of "Missions". Has it occurred to you that the various mission "divisions" are coming online on doing their own local evangelism? Because that is what the church is actually seeing.

It is not an odd retention argument to note that rates leaving for every 100 joining are going up steeply. Are you saying it is somehow improvement to see the rates go from 28 per 100, to 49 per 100, to now in the last few years 70 or more per hundred?

And regarding mission given, yes, it does actually relate to mission. It is hard to argue that people have stopped giving to mission because some areas are doing their own evangelism. There are still many areas that need evangelism.

But more to the point, Adventists have historically emphasized mission giving on top of tithe. And the chart showed a decrease in mission giving in relation to tithe. So are you saying the church has now officially said they don't need as much mission offering, because these churches have it covered? Or is it simply that giving is going down, as it is unfortunately, in many churches?

 

[tall73]

Calvary chapel is not a denomination and has no structure outside of the local congregation - each congregation is fully independent.

(association of autonomous churches led by pastors)
Being a "member" just means "you attend" a congregation so they count the number of congregations for their statistics not the number of members.

@The Liturgist will be happy to see you are finally getting around to addressing his list.

From what I am seeing I think your critique of Calvary Chapel is fair. The Liturgist can add anything if he disagrees, since it is his list.

Any others you would like to contest? Or are you ready to concede the rest?

Contested:
the Calvary Chapel

Pending:
the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
Assemblies of God in Brazil

 

[tall73]

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Statistics/Other/ACRep2023.pdf

The long-term net loss rate is now 42.5 since 1965.

But that long-range number doesn't communicate the larger issue, that the rate is increasing.

As documented in the thread, at one point it was 28 in a given year, then 49, now over 70 for a few years. So while the chart shows one in 4 over the long-term, if the recent trends continue that will be going up considerably.

 

[tall73]

More information on the large drop in NAD membership in 2022.

He explained that the losses were due to a systematic,18-year membership audit completed in 2022, which resulted in four conferences removing 52,193 names from their books.​

Secretary’s Report on Day Four of NAD Year-End Meeting Highlights Unity in Diversity | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

On October 29, day four of the North American Division’s 2023 Year-End Meeting, NAD executive secretary Kyoshin Ahn and team delivered an eye-opening secretary’s report. Their presentations defined the state of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America, emphasized secretariat ministries’...

www.nadadventist.org

So it is really that the numbers were off for a while, but the adjustments hit that year. That has been happening in various divisions since 2015.

 

[BobRyan]

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Statistics/Other/ACRep2023.pdf

The long-term net loss rate is now 42.5 since 1965.

Not a very convincing explanation for how the number of adherents mushrooms from 17 million in 2017 to 22.2 million in 2022.

as already noted ...


hmm 3,500 ini1863 - to 18 million in the 2015 report.

Your report shows SDAs at almost 22 Million in 2022.

And the latest for the previous year still shows 22.2 million.

I guess it will really be very very sad when that number goes to 28 million or to 30 million in your view.

How is it that all your sad news keeps bumping those total numbers of members - to higher millions?

 

[BobRyan]

Your charts -- leave this unexplained...

22 million.
Adventist World Statistics
https://documents.adventistarchives...1MjI4NC4yLjAuMTcxMTU1MjMwNS4wLjAuOTczNTg5NDA2


"with world-wide membership of 22,234,406. God has truly blessed our Church..."

" In Chart 14 you will see that nearly every
Division’s accessions increased from 2020 to 2022, in fact, accessions
in East-Central Africa Division (ECD) increased by 108% and those in
the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division (SID) by 159%.
Our church continues to grow, thanks be to God."

How many other top 10 world denominations grew by almost 25% from 2015 to 2022?

IF that is all you have for 'sour grapes' -- I say - "praise the Lord!"

 

[tall73]

Your charts -- leave this unexplained...

22 million.

The denomination's charts of course, not mine.

And they don't leave it unexplained at all. You have added many, and lost many.

You are now losing 7 for every 10 you add, from the reports of your denomination.

I am sure the statistics folks at the denomination are not just reporting this due to sour grapes.

And while growth is certainly better than decline, I don't think you are very happy about the 7 leaving for every 10 brought in either.

Nor am I particularly happy about it, in that I don't think all of it is due to uniquely Adventist factors, but reflects difficult circumstances facing other Christian groups as well. And while some Adventists tend towards legalism, there are still many Adventists preaching the gospel. So seeing such slowing trends is disturbing.

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist will be happy to see you are finally getting around to addressing his list.

From what I am seeing I think your critique of Calvary Chapel is fair. The Liturgist can add anything if he disagrees, since it is his list.

Any others you would like to contest? Or are you ready to concede the rest?

Contested:
the Calvary Chapel

Pending:
the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate),
the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church,
the Church of Christ in Congo,
the Church of England,
Assemblies of God in Brazil

I disagree with his assessment of the Calvary Chapel, since members of one of their chapels can attend another, and the precise procedure one must go through to become a member varies from denomination to denomination (in the Orthodox Church, unless you are born into it, the process of conversion involves chrismation or baptism).

 

[brakelite]

I believe if the SDA listens to @icedragon101 and has a respectful dialogue with him, and implements some or all of his proposals as a result, it could convert 6,000 a day on average, based on what you say about it. And probably retain all of them.

Also, of those 3,000 a day, people who converted from other Nicene Christian churches obviously don’t count. For that number to be meaningful it has to be Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, African tribal religions, Jehovahs Witnesses, and especially Atheists who were never baptized being baptized for the first time in a Christian church. If you take 3,000 people a day from the Roman Catholic Church or the Southern Baptist Convention or the Assemblies of God that may be an internal gain for Adventism, and suggest you are doing something right in terms of some aspect of your ministry, but it is a net zero for Christianity, and not a Pentecost moment, since the people already were Christians and just changed ecclesiastical affiliation from their existing church to one more pastorally appealing or geographically convenient.

There is one area which is an exception, I know of people becoming Adventists because of the pernicious trend of youth sports teams at public schools in the US to schedule practice for Sunday morning. This is preferable to them becoming unchurched, but I see it as a wakeup call for denominations to have daily services in as many parishes as possible, especially on Wednesday, Friday evening and Saturday morning and evening.

An argument could be raised as to whether Catholics converting to Adventism is in fact a gain for Christianity. It was for me. And I think many underestimate what Adventism it's accomplishing in Asia and Africa. While it is true that there is but slow gains at present in western nations, it is far from show elsewhere. In the South Pacific division for example, there are 650,000 members. This is across Australia, Be Zealand, and the south pacific islands. Surprisingly, 2/3s of that number are in Papua New Guinea, with the vast majority of them coming from non Christian backgrounds.
Adventists really do need to do better however. There evangelism efforts are good, their passion for the lost could be deeper, their doctrines are sound, but they're that retention issue. And that comes down to failed discipling and a lack of love. Counting those coming in is one thing... Not caring about those going out the back is another. However, that isn't the case with every church. And it's not a death sentence on the movement. It was however foreseen. All advenists knew this time would come. We call it the shaking. God Himself is sifting out those whose hearts aren't in it. And I believe that is not just an Adventist peculiarity. In time we will be left with a church without dot or blemish, d the scriptures describe would be the case at the time of Jesus' coming. But we need to seriously avoid any mindset that says, such n such left because they weren't converted, not saved, or had apostatised. We need to follow up every single person who is heading toward the back door, and do everything we can to ensure they aren't leaving for all the wrong reasons.