boughtwithaprice
Legend
Are you saying that Jesus did not have the authority to confer the keys to the kingdom of heaven onto Peter?
Upvote
0
God never said one day in seven or choose the day of rest. God has authority over the Sabbath and all things.
God created and worked six days Genesis 1. On the seventh day God rested from all of His work and blessed and sanctified the seventh day. He did not bless the first day or any other day only the seventh.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
God wrote His holy law with His own Finger and very clearly spelled out which day we are to keep holy.
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
God does not leave it up to us to decide which day we are to keep holy. God clearly said the seventh day. By choosing an alternate day you are disobeying and undermining God's authority.
Isaiah 68:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
God only claimed one holy day and the Sabbath day will continue to be the day on the New Earth that we will worship our Lord. Isaiah 66:23
Jesus tells us not to worship in vain by obeying traditions over commandments of God, which the seventh day Sabbath that we are to keep holy is a commandment of God written personally by our Savior and stored along with the other handwritten commandments in the Most holy of God's Temple.
One doesn't have to go that far back in church history to find problematic differences between what a church teaches and what the word of God says.
Pope Francis:
There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies. (Pope Francis, Audience of June 25, 2014, Vatican)
Scripture:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.This is not a denominational issue, it's a universal issue among churches; that liberty is taken over scripture to dictate a different gospel than what Jesus Himself taught.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first [apostasy], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Jesus never gave authority to Peter or any of the disciples to change what Jesus taught them. God's church is built on the Word of God and we are told not to add anything to God's Word. Proverbs 30:5,6Are you saying that Jesus did not have the authority to confer the keys to the kingdom of heaven onto Peter?
Jesus never gave authority to Peter or any of the disciples to change what Jesus taught them. God's church is built on the Word of God and we are told not to add anything to God's Word. Proverbs 30:5,6
This is how we know if its coming from God Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
No one has the authority to edit or change any of God's laws. This change is not coming from the Holy Spirit who is given to help us obey John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 not to disobey.
Agreed, Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments and led by example going to the Temple, praying and reading scriptures on the Sabbath as was His custom Luke 4:16 as well as the disciples. No where did Jesus tell His disciples that after He rises one of God's commandments would be deleted and we are to now worship Him on the first day. Jesus taught the opposite that we should not worship Him in vain by obeying traditions over God's commandments Matthew 15:3-9They did not change what Jesus taught them;
Agreed as Jesus was our perfect sacrifice, but God's moral commandments including the 4th commandment still stand, as we see in Isaiah 66:23 and scriptures from Jesus referring to the Sabbath after He will descend back to Heaven. Matthew 24:20. Something as major as breaking the Sabbath and commandment of God we would have scripture of Jesus telling His disciples, we do not have a God of confusion.Circumcision is no longer of any effect, neither are any of the animal sacrifices and offerings.
I noticed you did not provide any scripture to support this statement or any of your statements. How can you say that when God wrote His laws in our hearts in the New Covenant and God never deleted the only commandment that He started with the Word "REMEMBER". The New Testament has close to 60 references to the Sabbath and shows Jesus and His disciples in the Temples on the Sabbath so this is a very inaccurate statement. Jesus was being followed to see if He would break the Sabbath law, so the Sabbath commandment was very much in effect the entire time Jesus was on this earth and no where does Jesus tell anyone that there was a change in God's holy Sabbath day and the Sabbath day will continue as promised by God Exodus 31:16 to be the day we worship our Lord on the New Earth, not the first day Isaiah 66:23The Sabbath is a principle which was kept in the New Covenant, but was celebrated on the first day of the week to call attention to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The rites and ceremonies of the old law are done away. They have their fulfillment in the new covenant.
Circumcision is never found in God's Ten Commandments that God personally wrote and placed inside the ark in the Most Holy of His Temple. Paul tells us what matters and that is keeping the Commandments of God. 1 Cothinthians 7:19The Judahizers told believers that they had to be circumcised and keep all the precepts of the old law to be saved.
If it helps you to worship on Saturday, then go ahead. Do everything for the glory of God. The Catholic Church recognizes you as separated brethren and you have a valid trinitarian baptism. You do believe in the Trinity right?
The rhetoric I hear come from the SDA, I know not all SDA believe this, is that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Catholics are evil. That is not how Christians are to behave toward fellow Christians
Agreed, Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments and led by example going to the Temple, praying and reading scriptures on the Sabbath as was His custom Luke 4:16 as well as the disciples. No where did Jesus tell His disciples that after He rises one of God's commandments would be deleted and we are to now worship Him on the first day. Jesus taught the opposite that we should not worship Him in vain by obeying traditions over God's commandments Matthew 15:3-9
Agreed as Jesus was our perfect sacrifice, but God's moral commandments including the 4th commandment still stand, as we see in Isaiah 66:23 and scriptures from Jesus referring to the Sabbath after He will descend back to Heaven. Matthew 24:20. Something as major as breaking the Sabbath and commandment of God we would have scripture of Jesus telling His disciples, we do not have a God of confusion.
I noticed you did not provide any scripture to support this statement or any of your statements. How can you say that when God wrote His laws in our hearts in the New Covenant and God never deleted the only commandment that He started with the Word "REMEMBER". The New Testament has close to 60 references to the Sabbath and shows Jesus and His disciples in the Temples on the Sabbath so this is a very inaccurate statement. Jesus was being followed to see if He would break the Sabbath law, so the Sabbath commandment was very much in effect the entire time Jesus was on this earth and no where does Jesus tell anyone that there was a change in God's holy Sabbath day and the Sabbath day will continue as promised by God Exodus 31:16 to be the day we worship our Lord on the New Earth, not the first day Isaiah 66:23
Just a few examples from scriptures regarding the Sabbath still being God's law in the NT.
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
- Matthew 12:12
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
- Matthew 24:20
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
- Mark 2:24
Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (Jesus was reading scripture from Isaiah)
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
- Luke 6:6
And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
- Luke 13:10
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (after Jesus died).
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
- Acts 13:44
Circumcision is never found in God's Ten Commandments that God personally wrote and placed inside the ark in the Most Holy of His Temple. Paul tells us what matters and that is keeping the Commandments of God. 1 Cothinthians 7:19
The SDA church does not believe all Catholic people are evil, nor are all SDA's good. It's not the people but the institution that leads many people astray by breaking God's commandments that no one has the authority to edit, delete or change in lieu of tradition that comes from outside of scripture. The Bible tells us the mark of the beast is about WORSHIP
Revelations 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelations 16:2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
Revelations 14 takes us right back to God's 4th commandment
Revelations 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
God is the creator of all things. God from the beginning worked six days and the seventh day God stopped working and God blessed and sanctified the seventh day. Genesis 2:1-3 God does not need to rest this was an example for us which God clearly tells us in the 4th commandment. Work six days, keep the seventh day Sabbath holy.
God commanded us to keep holy the seventh day Sabbath and to REMEMBER so that means we are not supposed to forget.
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
This is God's authority! The seventh day Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord thy God and no one can change.
Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
Which again is why the Sabbath day we will worship our Lord from one Sabbath to another on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23 as it is the only day God told us was holy and is the holy day of the Lord thy God.
The Catholic church admit they had no biblical authority to change one of God's commandments and when you obey Sunday in lieu of the Sabbath as the primary day of worship you are obeying the pope over God. This change was predicted in Daniel 7:25 as the only time that is a law is the seventh day Sabbath and 4th commandment.
Just one statement from the Catholic church there are many more like this.
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
God bless!
Thanks, we should all have zeal for the truth and following God's Word.I admire your zeal. It still does not answer why was the day of worship changed at the end of the first and during the second century AD.
Did the whole church apostasize until 1863?
I have seen researchers dismiss Justin Martyr and Iraneus. We’re these men deceived? If there were Christian Sabbath keepers in the first and second century, what were their names? Where are their writings? I read the book From Sabbath to Sunday, but could not find any.
Are you saying that Jesus did not have the authority to confer the keys to the kingdom of heaven onto Peter?
Your scripture quotes have nothing to do with what Francis was saying. The proper scripture reference is
1 Corinthians 1
[1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
The Pope does not claim to be God, and does not claim impeccability. Infallibility means that he is prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. It does not mean he is a perfect human being worthy of worship, or that he can do no wrong.
It rather seems that those that claim Sola Scriptura place themselves as sole arbiters of truth. They claim to know all that God says and reject other viewpoints that would call them to repentance. It reminds me of the church in Laodicea in Revelation 3
[17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
When you claim sola scriptura you claim to know it all. Can't be taught by history of tradition or even other people. you must come to the conclusion yourself. That places you in a difficult position of leaning on your own understanding when the Bible itself says to lean not to your own understanding. Christ said He was going to build a Church, but you say He didn't. You don't need church, you can interpret the Bible yourself.
1Tim2:1
[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
If your interpretation of one mediator is correct, what good are supplications and intercessions?
The Catholic Church does not take the place of Christ, but we proclaim Christ to the world
"a redemption for all": He is also the only mediator, who stands in need of no other to recommend his petitions to the Father. But this is not against our seeking the prayers and intercession, as well of the faithful upon earth, as of the saints and angels in heaven, for obtaining mercy, grace, and salvation, through Jesus Christ. As St. Paul himself often desired the help of the prayers of the faithful, without any injury to the mediatorship of Jesus Christ.
It rather seems that those that claim Sola Scriptura place themselves as sole arbiters of truth. They claim to know all that God says and reject other viewpoints that would call them to repentance. It reminds me of the church in Laodicea in Revelation 3
Let's look at that quote from the Pope again:
"There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies." (Pope Francis, Audience of June 25, 2014, Vatican)I don't see how you can read something different in this quote. The rest of the Pope's address could've been scripturally sound, but this one paragraph is not, which is concerning. What other things has the Pope said that oppose scripture?
- The first sentence states clearly that you can't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and mediation of the Catholic church, which is in direct opposition to scripture.
- The Pope calls wanting a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ "dangerous" and "harmful" temptations.
- The Pope calls a personal relationship with Jesus, our mediator, as opposed to the church being the mediator, "absurd dichotomies". This being a quote from Paul VI.
You said, "...those that claim Sola Scriptura place themselves as sole arbiters of truth." I don't see it that way. God gives discernment through the Holy Spirit. Where in any of our posts do you see us elevating ourselves above the truth found in the word of God? Every position is defended with clear language from scripture. If it were not so, then we would have no defense for our positions. The very thing you're accusing "those that claim Sola Scriptura" of, the Pope is guilty of by his own words (and not scripture). If this were isolated to one paragraph from one address, it wouldn't be a concern, but the church has a history of making such bold unscriptural statements of authority.
I said before, this isn't isolated to one church, it's across the board in Christianity. There are people in our own church; we're not immune. Thank God that we have His word to set things straight. Imagine if we didn't.
We agree on Revelation 3. It's about repentance, but it's also about lukewarm Christianity, which by the very definition, could be a departure from scriptural truth and study; allowing men to dictate what Christianity is and not the word of God, which, by the way, does a fantastic job of doing on its own.
Revelation 3:14-22
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
- Our Creator asserts His authority to emphasize this message.
15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
- Lukewarm Christianity is the core of the message.
- Jesus can and will deny you before God the father (Matthew 7:23).
17-18 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
- Lay up treasure in heaven, not the earth (Matthew 6:20).
- Open your eyes to your wretchedness.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
- Rebuking of the lukewarm.
- A call to repentance (Matthew 4:17).
- A call to zealous Christianity.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
- Jesus knocks directly on the door Himself (John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5). There is no other worldly mediator. See the Pope's words again.
21-22 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Just reward—or just punishment (Revelation 22:11-12).
It's okay to be in disagreement. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Being able to discuss it on a forum, in a day and age when Christian persecution is on the rise, and freedom of speech is under attack, that's a privilege we both can share and enjoy, and agree on.
God bless!
You will need to accept church tradition in order to hold onto the New Testament. The church had to decide which letters to include and which to exclude from the New Testament. This process of assembling the New Testament letters took centuries.Christianity Today in its Jan/Feb 2015 article -- said that the Seventh-day Adventist church was at that time the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.
So why does the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) church still test its doctrines sola-scriptura instead of sola-tradition? Wouldn't that mean it is risking being "orthodox" in the Biblical sense but not "orthodox" in the traditional sense?
The Bible shows us a clash can exist between tradition and scripture in Mark 7:6-13 in Christ's day.
Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
"Word of God" = "Commandments of God" = "Moses said" -- according to Christ in Mark 7
Here we see Christ slam-hammers the one-true-nation-church of His day - started by God at Sinai. And He does so - with a "sola scriptura" test of a given tradition.
===============
Acts 17:11 Paul himself is tested "Sola scriptura" to SEE IF the things he as an Apostle taught "were so".
"11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, studied the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were so."
================
Acts 8 – Ethiopian Eunuch
The "sola scriptura" model of scripture that we see in Acts 17:11 does not say "do not explain scripture to anyone" rather it says that if someone tells you to test all teaching/interpretation/tradition by the Bible. So then it says if you are told that Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but rather it is about Israel suffering persecution from gentiles (Which some people do teach) you need to look at the scripture details closely "and SEE IF - those things are so" Acts 17:11.
And so in the example above (Acts 8) - Philip explains the scripture - but does not say "obviously I am a total stranger to you -- just believe whatever I tell you about this chapter". Rather the eunuch must look at the text and decide for himself if Philip is right or his magisterium is right.
Philip does not say "within my own group I am considered a disciple so you should believe whatever I tell you to believe even though I am nobody at all to you... that's how we do it".
In fact that actual magisterium of the religion that the Ethiopian eunuch (an apparent proselyte of the Jews) was part of... His own magisterium would have told him to reject Philip's teaching and all his claims to know what Isaiah 53 really meant.
==================
In Gal 1:6-9 Paul argues that if we read the Bible and see what the NT authors proclaimed as the Gospel and the full acceptance of scripture as the Word of God - and then find that someone comes along and contradicts that Word - they are to be rejected.
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Official belief statements - are tested sola scriptura and they are here:
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org
The opening statement at that page says this:
"Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture."
1. Some people will object saying that you cannot really find out if something is true or not unless you add tradition to the Bible - but in that case the sola-scriptura position above should be easy to test and see if it proves its case using scripture alone.
2. Other people will object saying they didn't know the Adventist church limited itself to a sola-scriptura test. But in that case it should be easy to check out the statements there to see if sola scriptura is "enough" to make the case you find there.
You will need to accept church tradition in order to hold onto the New Testament.
BobRyan said: ↑
agreed.
The Bible said it did in Matthew 28
Hopefully you will agree that God is worshiped every day - yet even the Catholic church says that missing the worship service of mass - on Sunday - is a mortal sin and claiming "I had worship on Tuesday" does not fix that problem in the eyes of the Catholic church - how much more an issue in the case of God Himself calling not merely for "worship of God every day of the week" -- but specifically "an entire day of rest and worship - a solemn assembly" (on "the seventh day) during the week where the entire day is set aside for that. Sanctified for that use.
yes you make a valid point. We are not free to come to our own conclusions regarding what the Bible says, but must bow to the authority instituted by God.
We just need to look at the fruits of Martin Luther. The Reformation was supposed to be a restoration of biblical Christianity, but what we have is a bunch of people in disagreement. Each claims sola scriptura, yet few agree
Not sure if I understood your reply?Which one(s) were NT saints, contemporaries with Paul and John the revelator "needing" so they could read O.T. and N.T. texts in your POV?
none?
That is what I thought.
Yet they understood the term "all of scriptures" in Luke 24 and "the rest of scripture" in 2 Peter 3.
The point remains.
(BTW - there is no debate/challenge when it comes to the 27 books of the NT fully completed before the end of the first century)
Not sure if I understood your reply?
Are you saying that in the first century, every church had copies of the exact 27 letters. That are found listed in a modern translation?
The complete New Testament was canon at the end of the first century?
That is not a quote or reference to anything I said in that post of mine - is it??
My examples are "individuals" choosing against the supposedly infallible magisterium in Acts 17:11 and in your own example of Acts 8 in the case of the Ethiopian and Philip.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?