Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

[Choose Wisely]

Watchman,
I guess you think you have it figured out. There are many views, I hold the view that the scroll only orders written that do not take place until the Trumpets and Bowls are released. You can see how the sphere of events coinside and overlap. The book "EQuake by Jack Hayford supports this view also. I've studied eschatology for 17 years and used to be an adherent to the Pre-trib view, but the more I examine it, the more I see the rapture happening in the middle of it all.

I think if one really studies the Bible they will conclude that the rapture is in the middle of it all. Did the same thing. 1st think there is a pre trib rapture and then study more and conclude that the rapture is pre wrath. Then I studied the fig tree and realized there would be a pre trib rapture.

 

[Truth Files]

Marvin Rosenthal's idea of a pre-wrath "rapture" has run out of steam and is not currently held by most who study Revelation's unfolding

The entire tribulation period is the Lord's coming judgment upon the earth and it will last for 2550 days .... the idea that His "wrath" only comes at the end of the period is a fabrication of post-tribulation thinking

His church of today of both those asleep and those living at the time will be made immortal just before all of His judgments begin [Revelation 3:10] .... there are many and these will take time to run their course

He is the one who will send His unmitigated punishments against an unbelieving world just as Revelation presents them .... they all come from Him [Revelation 6:12-17]; the trumpet soundings and related events, His allowance to let satan and his fallen angelics and human followers rage upon the earth, the destruction of the great city part of MBG, and His turning upon satan's beast and followers at the end of the period at Armageddon

 

[Ronald]

The Watchman and all,
There is a lot of confusion concerning the order of events in this book because it doesn't make sense if you follow it in a linear and chronological way. Let me share an excerpt from my book:
--------------------------------

"Here is an example of the orders given in the scroll that
represent actions taken when the sixth trumpet is blown. Think of
the scroll as a play that was written long ago. The cast is chosen
and the stage is almost set. But the performance does not begin
until the trumpets are blown. The sixth seal in Rev.6:12, introduces
the four horsemen to be released and cause 1/3 of the destruction
and death on the planet. The same angels actually begin to take
action in Rev.9:14. They were held at the Euphrates River. They
waited for a specific day and hour. Of course war is stirred up by
these angels indirectly but people on earth are responsible for these
wars. They cooperate with the evil spiritual forces. Again, man left
to himself will choose evil...​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]“[/FONT]Blow a trumpet in Zion,And sound an alarm on

My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,

For the day of the Lord is coming; Surely it is near,[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]”[/FONT]Joel 2:1 NASB​

The trumpets are the last warnings that we will have to endure.
The faith of many will be tested as always. This time is no
different except that it is extreme. I do believe that there is a false

belief that the Church will be removed before the trumpet

judgments. We need to endure the first six. How long that lasts,
I’m not sure. The trumpets may be blown in rapid succession with
accumulative effects. It appears that much devastation and death
comes in one hour and that possibly occurs when God releases His
wrath in the full.“​

The Day of the Lord” is spoken of throughout the Bible as a
day of Judgment. Is it one 24-hour day? No, in this case, it is not.
Destruction may come in one hour, yet this period of time lasts
longer. [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]“[/FONT]But the heavens and the earth which are now

preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day

of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do
not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a
thousand years, and a thousand years as one day . . . But the
day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the
heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will
melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are
in it will be burned up.[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]” [/FONT]2 Pet. 3:7, 8, 10 NKJV​

This “day” may very well begin with the Great Tribulation
period and end one thousand years later when the first earth is
destroyed. Both are judgment periods; both include resurrections.
Hades still has the Devil and his demons imprisoned in chains

during this 1000-year period. The Great White Throne Judgment

occurs when He opens the books. This must surely include the
judgments during the Great Tribulation period. Again, we know in​

part." written by Ronald David Bruno
--------------------------------
Scroll = orders / blueprint of events that take place when trumpets sound. Jesus most likely opened it when He ascended to the Father and was given all authority in Heaven and on Earth. As John MacArtur describes it: " The Scroll is the Title Deed to the earth."
The Trumpets & Bowls contain events (some of which can be identified in the scroll). But they overlap and are accummulative. It is like a sphere, you can only see a portion of it at one time. John shows us different vantage points so we can get the full picture.​

 

[LastSeven]

Ronald, what do you think the first four trumpets represent? Do you think they are literal descriptions of what will happen, or are they symbolic descriptions?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Ronald]

I think if one really studies the Bible they will conclude that the rapture is in the middle of it all. Did the same thing. 1st think there is a pre trib rapture and then study more and conclude that the rapture is pre wrath. Then I studied the fig tree and realized there would be a pre trib rapture.

You chose wisely! We have a minority view. It will all pan out someday and we'll see it clearly. It's funny to see how adamant about one's views people can get though -- we all want to be right and claim our super-spiritual knowledge. That's the pride in all of us I guess.

 

[Ronald]

Ronald, what do you think the first four trumpets represent? Do you think they are literal descriptions of what will happen, or are they symbolic descriptions?

I take them literally.
Ok, I share some more with you.

7 TRUMPETS​

"In Revelation 8:7, the first trumpet sounds and fire, hail and
blood are released. One third of all the trees and grass on earth are
burned. I would imagine that one third of the cities will be toast as
well.
The second trumpet sounds and something like a huge
mountain on fire gets thrown into the sea and kills 1/3 of the life in
the sea and destroys 1/3 of the ships in the sea.
The third trumpet sounds and a star falls from heaven that is
blazing like a torch. It poisons one third of all the rivers and
springs, causing death to those who drink it.
The fourth trumpet brings darkness from the smoke that
blocks out one third of the sunlight, moonlight and starlight.
We can speculate on some possible physical causes of these
events. Asteroids striking the ocean and land may be one possible
scenario. Don​

’t believe that NASA can keep up with tracking the
thousands of asteroids floating around in space. Many undetected
asteroids pass us by. An asteroid up to a 1 mile in diameter would
create 100 - 300 ft. tsunamis, sink 1/3 of the ships in the sea and
kill 1/3 of the fish. Another asteroid hitting land would rupture the
water systems, mixing it with sewage and bacteria and poisoning
the water in that part of the earth. It would send a cloud of dirt that
could cover 1/3 of the earth. The first asteroid impact could send
up trillions of gallons of water into the upper atmosphere. The
water would freeze and come down in the form of 100 lb.
hailstones, as scripture describes! An asteroid could also push the
earth closer to the sun, just minutely! This would explain the sun
scorching people during this time.​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

“[/FONT]Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will
move out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts and in
the day of His fierce anger.[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]” [/FONT]Isaiah 13:13 NKJV ​

The worldwide
earthquake in Joel 2:10, 11 also supports this verse. The
earthquake that is mentioned in the same hour of the witnesses’​

ascension in Rev. 11:13 is very possibly the same earthquake
described in Rev. 6:12. This also shows that the events in the scroll
begin to take action when the trumpets begin to sound.
Another likely possibility would be a super volcanic eruption
along the Syria - African rift that was mentioned earlier. A huge
crack in the world for all the cracked pots to be thrown into,
sounds like Hell to me. If this was big enough, it could shake the
entire planet, cause devastation, create tsunamis and ignite fires
throughout the world. If this eruption occurred under the Dead Sea,
the water would be thrust into the atmosphere thereby causing the
formation of giant hailstones.
There is no doubt that sooner or later, a nuclear war will erupt.
This will happen so fast and within one hour it will be devastating.
Twelve nations have them, including, Pakistan and Israel with Iran
close by. Many other nations will join in and this could spread fire
throughout the planet, radiation poisoning of the waters and if
major coastal cities get hit, then that would account for the sea​

vessels destroyed." written by Ronald D. Bruno

 

[Ronald]

Why do you think that Rev 15:1 refers to the seven last plagues?
Rev. 7:1 shows that it was seen after the end of the things of the 6th seal had been shown to John.
Then John saw a certain set of four angels for the first time.

Here's a summary of the bowls of wrath.

[7 BOWLS​

1. Foul and loathsome sores affect all men. ( Rev.16:2)
2. The sea turns to blood and all life in the sea dies. (vs. 3)
3. Rivers and springs turned to blood. (vs. 4-7)
4. The sun scorches men with fire. (vs. 8, 9)
5. The Beasts​

’ kingdom is darkened and they gnaw their
tongues because of pain. They blaspheme God. (vs.10, 11)
6. Euphrates River dries up to allow forces from the east to
cross and invade. This is the battle of Armageddon. (vs.12-
16)
7. Great Earthquake shakes the entire planet and all buildings
and even mountains and islands are leveled. One hundred​

pound hailstones fall. (vs.17-21)] written by Ronald D. Bruno

The four angels presented in Rev. 6 are the same in Rev. 7 and also 9:14-17 John sees visions from different vantage points of the same events and participants.

 

[LastSeven]

Ronald, the scenario you outline with meteorites and everything is entirely plausible. However, there is another possibility. A symbolic interpretation.

The reason I suspect it might all be symbolic is primarily because of the description of the fourth trumpet.

Revelation 8:12
12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

A third of the day light or moon light being blocked I can imagine if, as you say, smoke, dust and debris from a meteorite impact blocked the light to a third of the planet. But it also says here that a third of the sun turns dark and a third of the moon turns dark. Can you imagine how that might happen? I can't. I just can't picture a portion of the sun not giving off light, yet that is what it says here.

Furthermore, the language used in these trumpets is pretty commonly understood to be symbolic. A mountain for example, is symbolic of a kingdom and in particular God's kingdom. The sea is symbolic of multitudes of people and in particular wicked people.

A great star falling from the sky (wormwood) could easily be representative of a fallen angel. Fire coming down from heaven, although potentially a literal event, has also been used to describe Jesus himself coming down from heaven. (2 Thess 1:7)

And lastly, the use of the fraction 1/3rd leads me to believe that this is all symbolic. Again, with God all things are possible, and he could cause exactly 1/3rd of the earth to be destroyed and so on, but it seems unlikely.

Had you considered a symbolic interpretation before you wrote your book?

 

[zeke37]

ya, symbolic makes more sense to me too.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

//

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Ronald]

The sealed book that is opened by the Lamb doesn't contain the trumpets or the vials in it.

The scroll (with seven seals) contains ALL events. Teh 7 trumpets and 7 bowls are part of the scroll.

The vial plagues were laid out in the book that John ate.

The symbolic meaning behind the eating of the little book is that it is a bitter/ sweet ending. All in all, devastation and death but eternal salvation and peace afterwards.

The trumpets were the time of a vision section revealed to John between the end of the 6th and the start of the 7th seal.

Vantage points, events overlap and accumulate. Action starts with 1st trumpet. Again the 7 Seals represents actions that take place in the trumps and the bowls.

Rev. 7:1 begins as to "And after these things I saw four angels..."

Just a vision!

What if after the 7th seal is opened and the time of silence, John just wants to be sure we know which set of angels have shown up?

John wants to be sure we know... ? This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The same angels in Rev.6:12 do not take action til Rev.9:14 (to support and demonstrate my interpretation take a close look)

The Bible shows that the 1st woe (5th trumpet) ends before the 2nd woe can begin

I'm sorry but this angel releases the demonic horde from the bottomless pit, a crack in the earth (super volcanic eruption) releasing smoke that covers one third of the earth and you think these events aren't accumlative? So the smoke goes away first before anything else happens?
The Lord returns at the 7th trumpet sound while there is dark smoke that covers 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars. Granted the demon-like locusts torture for 5 months but death, fire, destruction is accumulative.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/