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Some of us choose to learn when presented with something they had not previously noticed. Others don't.
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I agree that the seals are not given in order. I agree that the rider on the first horse is Satan. I agree that the "one of the seals" is the sixth seal.
I disagree with the rest! How can you write that the 6th seal is "the great day of the Lamb's wrath" when you just wrote the 6th seal is the time of Satan? Satan comes to deceive (which is why he is disguised as the rider on the white horse) and as shown....he arrives before the true Savior.
Not long ago I wrote the following OP on the topic of the seals, I'm sorry about it's length but it explains what I believe the seals represent.....
Your scripture says otherwise.
If you're are proposing there is no order then you are also proposing at the same time that the seals are randomly placed. God does not randomly give major points of prophecy in his written word, God is not the author of confusion.
To understand Revelation 6 it's vital that we read Christ's Olivet prophecy first, Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. You can place 2 computer bibles side by side , I used Matt 24 to compare with Rev 6
A few quick points first...................
In reading the Olivet Prophecy we first find that the apostles came to Christ PRIVATELY, Mark shows that it wasn't all the apostles but only four that came to him privately asking about the end times........Peter , Andrew, James and John.
Christ did give the Olivet prophecy in order of how events would unfold, one event following another event..........what's important about this is the fact that JOHN was one of those that came to him privately..........to imply there is no order to the seals being opened would also imply that John was first given the events in order then years later given a random order of the same events.
Comparing the 2 accounts shows that the seals are in order of events that lead up to Christ's second coming.........just a few here as an example.
First thing Christ says in Olivet discourse
Take heed that no man deceive you, false Christs, false prophets
First seal , white horse rider, false christianity, a counterfeit rider to the white horse rider of Rev 19 (Christ)
Next Christ tells his apostles.........Wars and Rumors of Wars among nations
Second seal , red horse rider War
Anyone can read further and find the 2 are synonymous with each other, each seal matches each event of Christ's prophecy....the Olivet Discourse is an overview of Rev 6
One more thing to notice , it's Christ who does the revealing in both instances, first in his earthly ministry then as the only one worthy to open the seals in light of this fact it would give rise to the question , why would Christ first give the events in order then randomly give the same events to John in Rev 6, what would be the motive in that ?
The seals are in chronological order of how and when the final end time events would unfold, they are in order and there is a reason that they were given in the order that they were given.
See OP. You are in complete error. All one has to do is read the events associated with each seal, compare them to other scripture, and one can plainly see that they are not given in chronological order.
This is the opposite of the truth. If you knew how scrolls were sealed you wouldn't be saying this.This is one of those instances. In using the terminology 'seals of a scroll', God gives a clue that there is no necessary order of seal removal to open the scroll.
I've seen the OP and the OP doesn't hold authority over God's written word. You can say and repeat over and over that I am in complete error but that is only a claim without evidence, you haven't proven that I am since you did not reply to my rebuttal, you only reiterated once again what you believe, that is not a very convincing method. If you want to convince that your premise is true then you have to present evidence. I presented evidence that your premise is not true.
The seals do not start in Rev 6, they are started in Rev 5 , the ONE that sits on the THRONE (the Father) has the book and it's in his right hand.
Any book, scroll, parchment, document must be read in chronological order for it to even make sense.
The ONE found worthy to open the book and break each seal (Christ) is opening it and beginning in order so that his apostle John is able to understand the events in order before his savior's return and to write them down in order.
The same fact holds true for prophecy, a prophecy must take place in order of the events being foretold............Noah would have died if God had flooded the earth before he even gave Noah the prophecy. The people of Nineveh would have perished if God had destroyed them before even sending Jonah to warn of the prophetic event that would destroy them and they REPENTED and God showed mercy and did not destroy them.
The seals are also in order because when they take place in order they finally kill 1/4 of the earth's population Rev 6:8
The seals are in order because with war first, what follows is famine after war and then also pestilence............then death.
God declares the end, right from the beginning, it couldn't be done if it were randomly done........God does not and never has shown his truth randomly and HE has never performed his will randomly.
ran·dom adj. 1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective:
If the seals aren't in proper order then they have no specific pattern, purpose or objective, so what are they there for then in the first place if nothing more than to confuse the reader who wants understanding.
Your premise stands outside of scripture and it stands against the characteristics of God himself.
The bible doesn't say what your OP says. Your OP has a lot of assumptions, a lot of 'logically... hence' arguments that aren't really based off of anything said in scripture. For instance: "Logically, world peace must precede world currency, so..."If you would allow the prophecy of the Bible, given in other scripture, to guide you in evaluating the order, in time, of the seals, you will get the results that I presented in the OP.
The bible doesn't say what your OP says. Your OP has a lot of assumptions, a lot of 'logically... hence' arguments that aren't really based off of anything said in scripture. For instance: "Logically, world peace must precede world currency, so..."
But that is not even necessarily true. All of the world leaders could conspire and implement a world currency before there is ever world peace. In fact, you are just assuming the whole 'world currency' thing in the first place. Where does the bible say 'world currency'?
It doesn't even explicitly define the mark of the beast.
You start off your argument with a big assumption, saying that '666' means '6th trumpet, 6th seal, 6th vial' except it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture. (In fact, the scripture says that 666 is the number of a man.) Then you build your entire post off of that one argument.
Not at all. My opinion is that the third horseman symbolically represents famine.According to your thinking, the third listed seal is about someone riding on a horse carrying a balance, the buying of measures of wheat and barley for a penny, and the causing pain to oil and wine. After all, the Bible does not say anything else!
I can flip that on you: "If we are to go by what the Bible says, according to you..."I point this out only to demonstrate the absurdity of your position. If we are to go by what the Bible says [according to you], one would be barred from using the brains that God gives us to understand symbolism, figurative speech, metaphors, allegories, and idioms. One is left with the literal interpretation of everything in scripture as logic is barred in your world.
I disagree.'Count' means the enumeration of events over time,
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You did not make any coherent point in your rebuttal. Hence, there was nothing for me to reply to. The only reasonable reply was for me to direct you back to the OP, which has laid the foundation for the Bible Truth that I presented.
In the future, if you can present your evidence in a coherent fashion, I would be happy to disprove it.
One cannot read the book, scroll, parchment, document until it is opened! That is the message conveyed by the use of 'seals'. There is no particular order of removing seals to a scroll to open it. They all have to be opened to read the scroll and understand the message therein. There is no necessary order to remove seven seals of a scroll to open it.
Exactly!! PROPHECY is how one knows for certain that the seals are not given in chronological order. If you would allow the prophecy of the Bible, given in other scripture, to guide you in evaluating the order, in time, of the seals, you will get the results that I presented in the OP.
Circular argument -- "the seals are also in order because when they take place in order . . .". You cannot prove a fact by assuming it true and expounding on it as if it were true.
Perhaps, you should try to rephrase it in a sensical manner so that I can disprove it.
As I stated in my reply to your first rebuttal, God gives clues to those who really study the Word so that they will know that the seals are not given in chronological order. There is sufficient information in the Word to be able to discern the proper chronological order. Hence, God was not remiss at all -- He is just testing those who profess to be Christians to see who among them really study.
My analysis in the OP is outstandingly accurate. I would surmise that it is your religious indoctrination that is clouding your judgment on that which I wrote in the OP. Some people have a yearning to know Truth. Others will diss anything that falls outside of the religious brainwashing that they have received in their church.
Not at all. My opinion is that the third horseman symbolically represents famine.
I can flip that on you: "If we are to go by what the Bible says, according to you..."
Of course Revelation is filled with symbols -- I just don't think you have it right. Assumptions have to be made to interpret any of them, and yours don't convince me -- yet you act as if you speak with the authority of God himself.
I disagree.
we see here the whole reply is only on an attempt to discredit what I said by calling it incoherent or the implication that I've been "brainwashed"
These are ad hominems and they always have to be resorted to when one cannot directly refute the evidence given, so you have to appeal to the personal in an attempt to make it look as though you have responded directly to the evidence but haven't....only to repeat once again that the OP is higher in authority than scripture.
anyone experienced enough in discussion or debate will stay away from these kinds of tactics because they are so easily seen for what they are.
you or your OP have not been convincing and you have failed in your attempt to do so.
Hello... your whole OP is filled with opinions and assumptions based off of opinions...What is your problem?? You are admonishing me because you cannot present an intelligent argument, specific evidence of error, or a single coherent point!
The only thing that you have presented is that, in your opinion, my OP is contrary to the Olivet discourse. You didn't make a single point as to how my OP is in error.
Well, everyone has a right to an opinion. Your opinion is not a debating point. Your entire so-called rebuttal is nothing but an ad hominen attack. And, I know why. You cannot debate the Truth therein.
So, put up or shut up!
The 7 seals are not given in chronolgical order! That's why the term 'seal' is used. There is no particular chronological order in removing seals to a scroll.
The seals, chronologically, are as follow:
Listed ------ In TimeAny eschatology, which is based upon the seals being given in chronological order, is fatally flawed.
1 -------------- 6
2 -------------- 3
3 -------------- 4
4 -------------- 2
5 -------------- 1
6 -------------- 7
7 -------------- 5
1st Seal
The key to understanding lies in the number of the beast [Satan] being 666 in Rev. 13:18, which stands for 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th vial. In reviewing the seals, one sees that Satan [Antichrist], the rider on the white horse in 6:2, is the first one listed; but, it is listed as "one of the seals" -- not the "first one". Hence, there is dispositive proof that the seals are not given in chronological order. The 1st seal is the 6th seal chronologically.
To determine the chronological order of the other 6 seals, one simply needs to correlate them relative to Satan's seal.
6th Seal
This seal is the great day of the Lamb's wrath, which takes place after the seal identifying Satan [1st seal, which is the 6th chronologically]. It is the 7th seal chronologically.
7th Seal
This seal comes at the point of silence in heaven for one-half hour. In reading Rev. 17:12, the 10 kings have power given by Satan for one hour. Hence, the release of these 10 kings [Rev. 13:1] has to take place prior to this seventh seal. The seventh seal is one half hour later.
This 7th Seal marks the unleashing of the trumpets. The first 5 trumpets precede Satan's trumpet. Hence, the 7th seal has to take place prior to the seal identifying Satan's appearance [1st seal, which is the 6th seal chronologically]. The 7th seal is the 5th seal chronolgically.
4th Seal
This seal marks the casting out of heaven of Satan and his fallen angels, of which some will be the 10 kings of Rev. 13:1. It marks the beginning of the hour of silence in heaven. It has to take place prior to the 7th seal [5th chronolgically], as the 7th seal is after about one-half hour of silence in heaven. The 4th seal is the 2nd seal chronologically.
5th Seal
This seal marks the plea of the martyred saints for the endtime to commence. They are told to wait. Those martyred have received their salvation upon death of the flesh. This seal represents the time of teaching -- the church age, including the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:3-8. The sealing of the 144,000 takes place prior to the casting out of Satan and the fallen angels [2nd seal chronologically]. Hence, the 5th seal is the first seal in time.
3rd Seal
This seal marks the time of the protection of God's elect. Hence, this seal would have to take place after Satan and the fallen angels have been cast out of heaven. It also represents the one-world currency in which no one is allowed to buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast.
It will take sometime after the 10 kings take control of all world gov't before all economic power can be enforced. Hence, this seal comes after the second seal listed. The 3rd seal is the 4th seal chronologically.
2nd Seal
This seal marks the beginning of world peace, which only takes place when Satan's 10 kings take power over all world gov't. Hence, this seal has to take place after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven. The first order of business, by edict, from these 10 kings will be world peace. World peace logically precedes the introduction of world currency and, hence, precedes the 3rd seal [4th chronologically]. The 2nd seal is the 3rd chronologically.
I woke up hungry. I grabbed one of the boxes of cereal and ate. It was Cheerios.
I grabbed the second box and opened it. It was Capt Crunch.
I grabbed the third box and opened it. It was Frosted Flakes.
Now put the boxes in order of how they were opened. Remember, the first box was described as "one of the boxes"
This is too complex. Since the first box is described as one of the boxes I think it was opened second or third. I'm not sure though. Any ideas?
But both you and LovedofHim speak with the same self-assuredness, and both of you claim to just be presenting 'what the bible says'. .
Of course.There is a difference between Watchman2 and me. I hope it's obvious what that difference is (besides our viewpoints, of course).
What is your problem?? You are admonishing me because you cannot present an intelligent argument, specific evidence of error, or a single coherent point!
The only thing that you have presented is that, in your opinion, my OP is contrary to the Olivet discourse. You didn't make a single point as to how my OP is in error.
Well, everyone has a right to an opinion. Your opinion is not a debating point. Your entire so-called rebuttal is nothing but an ad hominen attack. And, I know why. You cannot debate the Truth therein.
So, put up or shut up!
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