Setting boundaries in marriage

[CuriousInIL]

Good illustration, Yitzchak! Maybe this will take several illustrations to be clear.

Curious, I am glad you are being persistent in asking questions if you truly want to understand. Like I said before, I really think this is important since it really has reached a crisis how people are being told to *take* mistreatment as a way to obey God. Suffering for Christ is different than allowing the consequences that are meant for others to affect us & not them.

I think I understand your confusion about the difference of boundaries vs ultimatums. Ultimatums ARE a form of manipulation. I guess the easiest way to explain the difference between controlling behavior and setting boundaries is the intent. The intent of boundary setting is to draw the dividing line, so to speak, between what belongs to each individual. It is to keep the one person's natural consequences of their decisions from affecting others. They have their choice as to how the are going to act, because that division line is drawn...either way, it isn't going to affect anyone but them--they now can exercise their free will with no hard feelings. This is to build up a relationship, keeping resentment from forming.

Ulitmatums are designed to get someone to make a certain choice....if they don't make the right choice (the one that the ultimatum giver wants) --they are punished. That is controlling--it causes resentment--it causes a wall of anger--it destroys.

Does that help??

I wish I could say it does, but it doesn't. In my last post I tried to look at it a bit differently. I guess for me, one difference may be what is the result of the unwanted conduct and how long does it last.

Maybe in order for me to get it we need to just play “boundary or ultimatum”--with different facts and I may be able to see what you are saying.

Let me give it a try:

A: I often give a neighbor a ride to the store. I am allergic to some perfumes. I tell her that I can not take her if she wears the perfume. She does so and shows up at my door. I tell her I can’t take her.

B: Same as A but I now tell her I can’t/won’t take her ever again.

C: Same as A but I now tell her that I also won’t shovel her walk.

Let’s start with those, or your better variations, and see if it helps.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I am glad you took the time to answer how you would handle the situation of the wife and husband having a difference of values relating to punctuality.

So, it looks as though you see the value in the boundary, right? The main reason is to keep resentment from forming in the relationship. I would add that if there is only one car, I think it would be best to just leave if the wife isn't ready on time. You said you would wait in the car, but that you would be upset & frustrated. That simply isn't good for either of you. I know we have probably all been told things that cause us to see that as mean or unreasonable...but really, it was the wife's decision. Allowing other's actions to cause us to feel resentment towards them puts a barrier between us to were we can't fully love them.

I guess this is where we agree to disagree because I think it would not be best just to leave--especially where it concerns spouses. Yes, I would be upset and frustrated but that is just something to deal with.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I guess the easiest way to explain the difference between controlling behavior and setting boundaries is the intent. The intent of boundary setting is to draw the dividing line, so to speak, between what belongs to each individual. It is to keep the one person's natural consequences of their decisions from affecting others. They have their choice as to how the are going to act, because that division line is drawn...either way, it isn't going to affect anyone but them--they now can exercise their free will with no hard feelings. This is to build up a relationship, keeping resentment from forming.

Ulitmatums are designed to get someone to make a certain choice....if they don't make the right choice (the one that the ultimatum giver wants) --they are punished.

I had to go back to this part and reflect on the original facts. Isn't the wife trying to get the husband to change? And, if he doesn't isn't there a consequence/punishment?

 

[CuriousInIL]

I wish I could say it does, but it doesn't. In my last post I tried to look at it a bit differently. I guess for me, one difference may be what is the result of the unwanted conduct and how long does it last.

Maybe in order for me to get it we need to just play “boundary or ultimatum”--with different facts and I may be able to see what you are saying.

Let me give it a try:

A: I often give a neighbor a ride to the store. I am allergic to some perfumes. I tell her that I can not take her if she wears the perfume. She does so and shows up at my door. I tell her I can’t take her.

B: Same as A but I now tell her I can’t/won’t take her ever again.

C: Same as A but I now tell her that I also won’t shovel her walk.

Let’s start with those, or your better variations, and see if it helps.

Or, better yet, let's go back to the wife is always late facts.

How does the DH set a boundary?

How does he give an ultimatum?

 

[mkgal1]

Do you have to keep shoveling? No, not in my opinion. However, if you choose to stop, I think you have to return the $500 (or a pro rata share for the undone work). And again, I think there is a difference between saying:
#1 I am keeping the 500 and unless you commit right now to no more snowballs ever again I will not shovel anymore and if one more snowball flies that is the end of it, no refund and no shoveling OR
#2 When I am shoveling if you throw snowball I am going to stop and will not come back until the next snowfall.

I completely agree that money should be returned (or at least a pro rata share) if the work isn't completed.

I also agree about the two solutions being vastly different. I am glad you can come up with hypothetical examples, because I think this will be so much easier.
Solution #1 is manipulation and an ultimatum to me. It isn't reasonable, it is retaliation. Something clearly against God's principles. It shifts the resentment from one side to the other, not solving the difficulty. The second solution seems more reasonable to me. Do you agree?

 

[mkgal1]

I wish I could say it does, but it doesn't. In my last post I tried to look at it a bit differently. I guess for me, one difference may be what is the result of the unwanted conduct and how long does it last.

Maybe in order for me to get it we need to just play “boundary or ultimatum”--with different facts and I may be able to see what you are saying.

Let me give it a try:

A: I often give a neighbor a ride to the store. I am allergic to some perfumes. I tell her that I can not take her if she wears the perfume. She does so and shows up at my door. I tell her I can’t take her.

B: Same as A but I now tell her I can’t/won’t take her ever again.

C: Same as A but I now tell her that I also won’t shovel her walk.

Let’s start with those, or your better variations, and see if it helps.

I am kind of lagging behind here, in my posting.

I think the underlined part above is a key part of boundary setting. I wouldn't jump to setting a boundary for something that only happened one time. This is more for things that are happening repeatedly & a pattern is forming.

In the above scenario...I would say the best choice would be A--that to me, is a reasonable and helpful boundary.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I completely agree that money should be returned (or at least a pro rata share) if the work isn't completed.

I also agree about the two solutions being vastly different. I am glad you can come up with hypothetical examples, because I think this will be so much easier.
Solution #1 is manipulation and an ultimatum to me. It isn't reasonable, it is retaliation. Something clearly against God's principles. It shifts the resentment from one side to the other, not solving the difficulty. The second solution seems more reasonable to me. Do you agree?

Yes, definitely I do agree.

But, I must say that my perception of the early posts in this thread would also have called #1 setting a boundary. Either I misunderstood or folks misspoke/miswrote or the likeliest of all--both happened.

 

[mkgal1]

I had to go back to this part and reflect on the original facts. Isn't the wife trying to get the husband to change? And, if he doesn't isn't there a consequence/punishment?

Hmmmm....that gets tricky. I see your point, but no....she CAN'T change him or force him to change, all she can do is tell DH what she needs for lovemaking to be intimate. She isn't telling him she will never make love to him again....it kind of runs parallel to your example of the shoveling of the snow. The solution is pretty much the same as the solution for the shoveling...."if you act in a way that I have clearly explained makes me feel violated, I can't ignore that and make myself available to you sexually"

Do you see the similarites? It isn't as though she is saying, "I will never make love to you again."

It is his choice as to whether or not he acts this way towards her, but the difference is HB is now not allowing herself to feel violated anymore.

 

[Yitzchak]

The real problem that sets in in these sorts of situations in real life is that we do bring in all of the other issues. Sorting our our desire for revenge and what part might be our past hurts or fears coming into play is not easy.

That is where the discussion really gets interesting. But what happens often in life and has happened on this board quite often is people give advice based upon a belief that one should never set boundaries with your spouse , espeacially about sex

I think that was the main idea of this thread to clarify the issue that boundaries can and should be set in some instances.

 

[mkgal1]

Thanks, Yitzchak!

This is from post #60, the synopsis of boundaries:

Boundaries are especially crucial in marriage--which is, after all, primarily a relationship of love. Without boundaries, love falters, and marriage fails.

 

[Yitzchak]

Let me say up front that I think these are really clear points here that are helping me to understand. In the end, this may be more a semantic issue with what I have and am hearing. Let me try to respond point by point and see where we go.

Sometimes it is a semantics issue... My mother in law will go on rants at least a few times a week and tell stories that are all basically the same story different details...Someone acts ridiculus and tries top push her around or take advantage of her and she puts them in their place with what ,my teenage son would call a " mega burn " by standing up for herself.

But bring up the word boundaries and she says I don't believe in all that psychology stuff......

 

[mkgal1]

I guess this is where we agree to disagree because I think it would not be best just to leave--especially where it concerns spouses. Yes, I would be upset and frustrated but that is just something to deal with.

I am still processing a lot of what has been said.


How would you *deal with* being upset and frustrated? That is my point...we need boundaries to protect our relationships from these feelings-resentment kills the love in a marriage. Resentment usually only builds up and eventually causes contempt for the other spouse. Why would you allow that into your marriage? You said, "especially where it concerns spouses." Isn't that the relationship that should be priority to keep pure?

 

[Yitzchak]

A common pattern for people who grew up their whole life being taught that they are not allowed to set boundaries is this. They discover boundaries and kind of go boundaries happy.

It makes me think of the age children reach where they discover personal boundaries and start saying no....My children all went through this. Around two years old if I remember correctly. They would say no 50 times a day. Then came the terrible twos where they became little tyrants and eventually they settled back into a more balanced equilibrium for a while.

Teenagers do a similar thing. It is a normal part of growing up and finding their individuality.

Relationships follow similar patterns.. In marriage you have the bonding stage just like babies do. Then comes a stage of asserting individuality which usually goes too far and then they find their balance again.

This is a normal pattern in life as people and relationships grow. The trouble is some resist growth and that is where the marriage starts to suffer big time.

 

[mkgal1]

Something that has been helpful for me is to decide what I won't allow in my relationships. Things that I HATE. A barrier of protection then needs to be formed to keep my relationships *safe*. I have decided I don't want things like: deception, resentment, and a fear of being vulnerable in my marriage and close relationships. With this defined ahead of time, I can be prepared to keep these things out.

 

[Yitzchak]

On issue that is huge in this boundaries thing is that it goes beyond specific situations. As useful as examples are , the real issue is the strongholds in the mind that the devil sets up.

We may suffer some damage in certain situations by letting our guard down. But the real damage comes concerning our identity as a person. When we have thinking that allows other people to define who we are and how we are to behave , our identity suffers.

As I posted already , Real life has seasons or stages where sometimes boundaries are blurred and other times they are asserted and made clear. Discerning the time or season we are in is crucial to spiritual growth....

There is a time where God sends a mentor into our life .. Maybe a pastor or maybe just an older Christian. But at a certain point in time , there is a shift where it is once again time for us to assert our individual identity.If the mentor is co-operative and discerning, they will welcome this.

Talk to teens about boundaries and they get it because over protective parents often try to hold them back from this natural phase of growth. They want to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

Does this scare people when this kind of thing happens in their marriage ? It is one of the keys to a long term marriage growing into what God intended for the relationship.

Hardly a side issue when we see what is at stake.....

 

[Yitzchak]

Boundaries is at it's root an identity issue. This is where you end and I begin. In real life , this is not an either or but more of a sliding scale of coming together and creating distance.....This is meant to be done in the context of loving and secure relationships like marriage and family. Those structures are to provide us with a safe place to grow not a place to hold back our growth....

There. That is my impassioned speech... Hisbloodformysins , don't give up.... This situation is for your husband's growth and for yours and for the relationship.Old structures have been outgrown and new ones are needed concerning how you relate. It is like the scripture which says you cannot put new wine in old wineskins. Growth has brought your relationship to the place where new ways of relating are needed.... I am praying still that that sinks in with your husband soon.

When I got a hold of that vision , I started to embrace the journey God has me on rather than fighting it. It is not God taking something away from us... It is Him giving us something even better.

Like taking the pacifier from a child at the proper time... It feels like hate but is really love.

Hope that helps. otherwise just say whew...brother Yitzchak.. Switch back to the decaf..lol...

 

[CuriousInIL]

Let's go back to the wife is always late facts.

How does the DH set a boundary?

How does he give an ultimatum?

 

[Yitzchak]

Let's go back to the wife is always late facts.

How does the DH set a boundary?

How does he give an ultimatum?

My view is it depends upon the timing. There is a time to take a stand about even a small issue because it is a growth stage as I said and what is really being resisted is the old structures. What I mean is what you let pass in one time period is worth making a point out of at another because there is a principle behind it.

I see it as a slowly escalating thing when the time comes to address the issue and set the boundary.There is a time for just reminding them and discussing it with them. Then pointing out I am angry or upset , then maybe eventually leaving without them.

To start with the extreme is unfair to them. People deserve a chance to adjust to the change.....

 

[CuriousInIL]

My view is it depends upon the timing. There is a time to take a stand about even a small issue because it is a growth stage as I said and what is really being resisted is the old structures. What I mean is what you let pass in one time period is worth making a point out of at another because there is a principle behind it.

I see it as a slowly escalating thing when the time comes to address the issue and set the boundary.There is a time for just reminding them and discussing it with them. Then pointing out I am angry or upset , then maybe eventually leaving without them.

To start with the extreme is unfair to them. People deserve a chance to adjust to the change.....

While many of your recent posts have been helpful to me, this one--not so much.

Can you venture straightforward answers to define the ultimatum/boundary line?

 

[mkgal1]

Hisbloodformysins , don't give up.... This situation is for your husband's growth and for yours and for the relationship.Old structures have been outgrown and new ones are needed concerning how you relate. It is like the scripture which says you cannot put new wine in old wineskins. Growth has brought your relationship to the place where new ways of relating are needed.... I am praying still that that sinks in with your husband soon.

When I got a hold of that vision , I started to embrace the journey God has me on rather than fighting it. It is not God taking something away from us... It is Him giving us something even better.

This is a post that needs to be read until it fully sinks in. I hope I can express how true this is...and important.

The underlined part really made me think of how this is such a common tactic of the devil. From the very beginning, in the Garden of Eden, Satan was trying to make Adam and Eve discontent with what God had given them. He got Eve to focus on what they COULDN't do...eat from the tree of knowledge. HB is wanting their marriage to be all that God has for her and her husband. God ALWAYS has the BEST for us...not just something good.

HB...I pray that God will give you the endurance and wisdom necessary to get to your miracle.