Setting boundaries in marriage

[mkgal1]

Oh, no! I did not take this as an attack.
I think what is going on here is a different meaning of terminologies.
OK, let's take your example. If I am accused of being selfish and uncaring because I am not availing myself for a phone conversation at 11P, the first thing that I would do is to pray if indeed I am selfish and uncaring. Do I show care and concern and am available during the day? I would pray for God to show sin in my own heart. Do I harbor a certain unconfessed sin. If this is not the case and let's say the other party is unusually demanding, then I would say at 11P "Listen, I am falling asleep while talking on the phone. And you know that I have to get up at 5A. I will call you in the morning". And make sure that I call that person in the morning. If that person gets upset, what can I say? He will stay upset until he realizes that he can not manipulate you anymore. You have to be kind but firm.
In Mark 3:20-30 because Jesus skipped a meal Jesus's mother and brothers decided that they know better how his time should be managed. So, first they thought that he is out of his mind and then they decided to take things into their own hands and get him out of there. So, Jesus clearly said No!

I am glad you don't not take what I said as an attack.

Maybe what we do have is a difference of terminologies
or maybe you are just more spiritually mature than I am and don't fall the victim of the manipulators. See, if someone called me selfish and uncaring...I would fall for that (am working on that). I would agonize over it first...then pray, instead of praying first. Let's take this a step further, since the abstract ideas are difficult to communicate. Say after you tell that person that you are falling asleep and will call them back, they get angry...don't accept your offer of calling them back at a better time for you, and begin yelling that you are selfish and uncaring. They just won't take your "no". What step do you take then? That is what I was saying when I said that is where people have the difference of opinion...when people just don't accept the polite "no". Suppose they call you back out of anger...what then?

 

[DIANAC]

Hi,
In this case I would say "I am finishing this conversation and would prefer not to hang up on you."
If the other person continues talking, I say "By" and hang up. However, I do call the next day to discuss whatever needs to be discussed at the moment, but not to rehash the situation of last night.
The secret is not to let others to write our To Do list. Only God should be writing our To Do list. Are we redeeming our time wisely or are we wasting it? Are we doing what God wants us to do or are are we letting others to decide what we should be doing? Jesus' family wanted to decide how he should be spending time.
Do not let the other person to define you. The only thing that is important is how the Father sees you. Pray more! If you spend more time with the Father, opinions of others would not matter that much.
Be well,
Diana

 

[mkgal1]

BTW, the synopsis above grossly misuses the scripture.

How so??

 

[mkgal1]

Hi,
In this case I would say "I am finishing this conversation and would prefer not to hang up on you."
If the other person continues talking, I say "By" and hang up. However, I do call the next day to discuss whatever needs to be discussed at the moment, but not to rehash the situation of last night.
The secret is not to let others to write our To Do list. Only God should be writing our To Do list. Are we redeeming our time wisely or are we wasting it? Are we doing what God wants us to do or are are we letting others to decide what we should be doing? Jesus' family wanted to decide how he should be spending time.
Do not let the other person to define you. The only thing that is important is how the Father sees you. Pray more! If you spend more time with the Father, opinions of others would not matter that much.
Be well,
Diana

This I agree with completely...that is defined by boundaries--what others do or say, is their responsibility.

 

[Yitzchak]

I think it is worth saying something about the broader underlying issue here. Psychology , counseling , ETC. What is biblical and what is not biblical ?

First of all , how does one define biblical ? Does it mean things that are permisable in the sense that they are not explicitly condemned in scripture ? Or does it mean we are only allowed to do something if it is expressly spelled out in scripture. In other words , if the bible is silent on an issue , then it is wrong ?

I find that religious people who have been in the church many years often say unbiblical when what they really mean is it isn't the way that their particular tradition does things. It doesn't mean they are insincere in wanting to please God but they confuse their tradition which defines the bible in very narrow terms as the whole sum of truth derived from the bible.

I know people from my church experience who say it is unbiblical to own a television , celebrate Halloween ,etc...While other churches disagree.But what is the real underlying biblical issue involved ? The biblical issue is sanctification or holiness...Biblically speaking we are not to live however we please...but does the bible really say anything about Halloween specifically or about television or is it an application of biblical principles ?

So when people on this thread say boundaries are unbibilical , what are they really saying ? They are saying that they apply bibilical principles according to their church tradition in a way that excludes any and all psychology. I disagree strongly with that position.

Psychology is a branch of the medical sciences and the fact that God does miracles and heals does not cause me to condemn the efforts of doctors.

These sciences are tools. In their proper place they are an asset. A hammer is good for the job it accomplishes but if used improperly it can actually tear down and do harm. But try being in construction and doing everything by prayer without any tools....Kind of silly....

Granted , there is some risk involved when the average person attempts - do it yourself projects- without proper training ... but nevertheless expertise in the field and the proper tools have their place.

 

[Yitzchak]

In my experience , I have found that counseling is useful when combined with prayer and instruction in the scripture.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

--either up front or later--discussion and compromise.

I agree

and to answer your first question.... my response is, what if?
There are no guarentees in life.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Oh, no! I did not take this as an attack.
I think what is going on here is a different meaning of terminologies.
OK, let's take your example. If I am accused of being selfish and uncaring because I am not availing myself for a phone conversation at 11P, the first thing that I would do is to pray if indeed I am selfish and uncaring. Do I show care and concern and am available during the day? I would pray for God to show sin in my own heart. Do I harbor a certain unconfessed sin. If this is not the case and let's say the other party is unusually demanding, then I would say at 11P "Listen, I am falling asleep while talking on the phone. And you know that I have to get up at 5A. I will call you in the morning". And make sure that I call that person in the morning. If that person gets upset, what can I say? He will stay upset until he realizes that he can not manipulate you anymore. You have to be kind but firm.
In Mark 3:20-30 because Jesus skipped a meal Jesus's mother and brothers decided that they know better how his time should be managed. So, first they thought that he is out of his mind and then they decided to take things into their own hands and get him out of there. So, Jesus clearly said No!
What I am saying that we must be careful not to go to a questionable source of teachings. Bible has all the answers.
BTW, the synopsis above grossly misuses the scripture.
Take care,
Diana

I think a lot of christians will take that approach. I did, I prayed and asked God to expose what was in my heart for YEARS with this friend...

Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders for common sense. And telling that person that you will get off the phone and call them in the morning is an example healthy boundary setting.

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I am glad you don't not take what I said as an attack.

Maybe what we do have is a difference of terminologies
or maybe you are just more spiritually mature than I am and don't fall the victim of the manipulators. See, if someone called me selfish and uncaring...I would fall for that (am working on that). I would agonize over it first...then pray, instead of praying first. Let's take this a step further, since the abstract ideas are difficult to communicate. Say after you tell that person that you are falling asleep and will call them back, they get angry...don't accept your offer of calling them back at a better time for you, and begin yelling that you are selfish and uncaring. They just won't take your "no". What step do you take then? That is what I was saying when I said that is where people have the difference of opinion...when people just don't accept the polite "no". Suppose they call you back out of anger...what then?

Good example, the old me would have said "i'm sorry"
I would bring up issues with this friend I had and she'd respond with an excuse, deny it, or whine and say I was hurting her feelings, but what she didn't do was stop the offensive behavior (much like my hubby imagine that ) And I ended up feeling like my feelings weren't legitament and like a bad guy because I was angry with her behaviors... because they were never treated with respect. I'd even apologize when I shouldn't have been apologizing. God used that relationship to teach me how to start asserting some boundaries.. and standing up for myself even when others don't agree. There emotions are not my responsibility. This friens was always trying to make her feelings my problem. As long as I feel like i'm in the right with God and am right with her as far as i'm not being taken advantage of, then after that when i'm assertive and "set the boundary" by not being controlled by them, then their feelings are their problem. It's unfortunately that some people don't take being told no very well.

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

One of the clear unanswered questions here is how to determine if the banned behavior is truly "unhealthy behavior" especially between spouses where at least one--presumably in good faith and with a well-formed conscience--believes it is not unhealthy and the other--who may or may not be acting in good faith and with or without a well-formed conscience--believes the opposite.

that question hasn't been answered because it's not the topic of this thread, nor is it my personal question.

But to answer you, nope, that doesn't matter. What matters is not what is ultimately "right" what matters is the individual needs of both parties involved. His behavor is extremely offensive to me, regardless of whether I "should" feel offended or not, I do. And it is a stubborn behavior of his to continue to approach me that way though I have calmly talked with him about my feelings about it and needs more then once. He is being disrespectful and unloving by disregarding my requests at that time. If he is feeling rejected and really needs some affection or wants to give it, he is more then able to put some effort into figuring out how to go about it in a way that is unoffensive to me. I have told him specifically what I like, what turns me on, what I respond well to. But he disregards that and does those things anyways. So, when he's blatantly disregarding my feelings engaging in those offensive behaviors... i'm feeling very unloved and bullied, and the natural response in my heart is definitely not a desire to make love. Because the idea of making love to someone who doesn't care about what is important to me but disregards it for his own needs is similar to feeling used. Does that make sense yet?

I have told him I don't like that behavior, I have explained to him why i don't like the behavior, i have tried to be helpful to give him tips on other ways to express his sexual needs inorder to gain a positive response from me, but he still disregards my feelings. He's even admitted more then once that he thinks that eventually i'll change and be receptive to that behavior. So, no, i'm not taking responsibility for his rejected feelings. It's his fault he feels that way, and his problem, not mine when he treats me that way and I leave the room or respond with expressing my negative feelings. He is a big boy, if he really wanted some, he could make the effort it takes to get some. But he refuses... so that's his choice, and both our losses, because i like to make love, but i don't like to be bullied or man handled.

My way of asserting the boundary is just leaving the room, because he is unbearable to be around when he acts that way. I do it to protect my own emotions of anger and triggered feelings of whatever kind, and i usually pray to cope during these times because i get really frustrated with the lack of resolution in our marriage... i come back out when i've calmed and ready too... but if he's still being obnoxious, i'll go back into the room because it's too much for me to be around.

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Arent' resistant people classified as manipulators? Sometimes it's subtle other time not. They'll do many things because they want to be in control. My family is like that, dad even threatened one of my sisters simply because she did not AGREE on his stance in politics!! She knows she has to distance herself from him, but not alienate him herself.
Jan

my grandmother is very controlling she doesn't like it when others don't do things her way

 

[janny108]

my grandmother is very controlling she doesn't like it when others don't do things her way

Well my dad is like that too. My sis is just finding this out. He's threatened to "alienate" her just because she disagrees with him in some areas.
Jan

 

[Rembrandtfan]

Well my dad is like that too. My sis is just finding this out. He's threatened to "alienate" her just because she disagrees with him in some areas.
Jan

People like this are insecure. If you don't agree with them, they take it as a personal attack on their character. To them, being wrong = being weak, unacceptable. They are determined to bring the rest of the world to their way of thinking.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I sometimes wonder if it's a generational thing. But I know that isn't always true. In my grandmother's generation... according to what she taught, you ALWAYS respected your elders meaning.... they can control you and treat you like poop and you don't assert your boundaries with them. Well, i'm not feeding into that "tradition" I work with a man in that age group who doesn't approve of my ways because I don't agree with his open expression of opinions about it. I don't know if this is a generational thing or an individual thing and I just happen to be around a lot of people who just need to have their way and control.... I have to deal with a growing resentment/prejudice against traditions that are different with different generations.... and remind myself not to sterotype and assume it's a generational thing. What do you all think?

HB

 

[Rembrandtfan]

Could be a little of both.

 

[deep6sleep]

hisbloodformysins,

You said you were a psych nurse, so you are probably familiar with Harriet Lerner's book, "The Dance of Anger".

If not, check it out. It may have some info that may be helpful. I wish you the best, and hope that your husband comes around and respects the boundaries you have rightfully set. You have done your part in compassionately explaining to him what you want and your reason for your requests, and the consequences of not meeting your requests...and your requests are well within reason, IMHO. He can choose to accept it or not. If he becomes angry...he owns that. Not you.
Good luck.

 

[DIANAC]

I sometimes wonder if it's a generational thing. But I know that isn't always true. In my grandmother's generation... according to what she taught, you ALWAYS respected your elders meaning.... they can control you and treat you like poop and you don't assert your boundaries with them. Well, i'm not feeding into that "tradition" I work with a man in that age group who doesn't approve of my ways because I don't agree with his open expression of opinions about it. I don't know if this is a generational thing or an individual thing and I just happen to be around a lot of people who just need to have their way and control.... I have to deal with a growing resentment/prejudice against traditions that are different with different generations.... and remind myself not to sterotype and assume it's a generational thing. What do you all think?

HB

Everybody likes to control, young and old. It’s a typical problem of a fallen human nature. Don’t 2-year olds throw a temper tantrums because they want to have their way? It’s just with older people they “fine tuned” the art on controlling. They have more tools including the guilt. Besides, they also have more experience and just know how things work by now. However, that does not give anyone a right to treat the younger generation badly. There is NO excuse for that.
It is indeed difficult for younger people who have bossy parents/grandparents/bosses. You just have to “know” when to do as they say and when respectfully not to take their advice.
The same way the Bible tells us to honor our parents (honor, not “do as I say”) it also has a word of advice for the parents
Colossians 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

 

[deep6sleep]

Everybody likes to control, young and old. It’s a typical problem of a fallen human nature. Don’t 2-year olds throw a temper tantrums because they want to have their way? It’s just with older people they “fine tuned” the art on controlling. They have more tools including the guilt. Besides, they also have more experience and just know how things work by now. However, that does not give anyone a right to treat the younger generation badly. There is NO excuse for that.
It is indeed difficult for younger people who have bossy parents/grandparents/bosses. You just have to “know” when to do as they say and when respectfully not to take their advice.
The same way the Bible tells us to honor our parents (honor, not “do as I say”) it also has a word of advice for the parents
Colossians 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

Knowing when and when not to take advice is a form of setting boundaries...

 

[Yitzchak]

I sometimes wonder if it's a generational thing. But I know that isn't always true. In my grandmother's generation... according to what she taught, you ALWAYS respected your elders meaning.... they can control you and treat you like poop and you don't assert your boundaries with them. Well, i'm not feeding into that "tradition" I work with a man in that age group who doesn't approve of my ways because I don't agree with his open expression of opinions about it. I don't know if this is a generational thing or an individual thing and I just happen to be around a lot of people who just need to have their way and control.... I have to deal with a growing resentment/prejudice against traditions that are different with different generations.... and remind myself not to sterotype and assume it's a generational thing. What do you all think?

HB

I have to agree with DIANIC on this one...

Everybody likes to control, young and old. It’s a typical problem of a fallen human nature. Don’t 2-year olds throw a temper tantrums because they want to have their way? It’s just with older people they “fine tuned” the art on controlling. They have more tools including the guilt. Besides, they also have more experience and just know how things work by now. However, that does not give anyone a right to treat the younger generation badly. There is NO excuse for that.
It is indeed difficult for younger people who have bossy parents/grandparents/bosses. You just have to “know” when to do as they say and when respectfully not to take their advice.
The same way the Bible tells us to honor our parents (honor, not “do as I say&#8221 it also has a word of advice for the parents
Colossians 3:21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

However , I would add to this that I think a distinction needs to be made between all being able to stumble and some having strongholds in their thinking and in their life. It is more difficult to deal with in whomever we find these strongholds... There is no special group for this but in the case of some the devil has had more opportunity to build strongholds....This can come through age as a product of the devil having longer to strengthen a system of thought in us. but it also can come through a particular influence in our life such as upbringing , even a denomination or church , a culture , the friends we are around.....In the cases described , you are probably dealing with a stronghold or system of thought and not just one individual's ability to fall into this kind of sin of controling.

The thing is the devil is much more subtle than we often give credit for. It is beyond the scope of this thread but there are many problems we can fall into in our thinking...Just because controling behavior or a lack of respect for other people's boundaries is the focus of this thread doesn't mean that there are not other destructive lines of thought that can be a factor in these situations.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I know controlling people who had some kind of abuse or trauma in their childhood, and their feeling of security comes from being able to contol everything.

Their line of thinking:
You don't agree with me = you don't like me = there must be something wrong with me = I must prove to you I am right, so that you will like me, and so I can feel better about myself.