Serving Others as Serving Christ

*Bowing out of the discussion* I'll just watch from here. This isn't making any sense to me anymore. I apologize.

That's a very sane, even-handed way of expressing it, Menno.

LunaticRed said:

Ok now you've totally confused me. If they're not always nice then how can they be more moral and peaceful?

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Morality and commitment to peace have little to do with one's personality, which is where "niceness" comes from.

The few people you know from the Amish community are nice, many others aren't always nice. That's the way it is with any group of people.

But determining to have Jesus Christ as your master is a personal thing and living morally and peacefully as a group is a culture thing.

Although they aren't always nice people, they are true to their Master and their culture, thus they follow Christ's commands to be moral and peaceful.

It doesn't take a certain personality, just a certain commitment.

Now, there are many Amish that left to join conservative Mennonite churches because they felt the Amish faith wasn't as biblical as it should be and maybe Walkin' can expand on that a bit.

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I guess I can try, although I'm not sure I fully understand it.

Some of the Amish around here, the Geauga/Trumbull County area of Ohio, have become more affluent as they move from a primitive-agriculture-based society to a manufacturing/light industry-based economy.

Having more money and not having to simply subsist from their land has allowed some to reexamine their traditions, such as reliance on buggies for transportation, refusal to use public utilities, etc. Some have come to accept that life has progressed since the beginning of the 20th century (when buggies and horse-drawn plows were state-of-the-art technology) and that there is nothing in the Bible that requires them to refuse to use newer technologies.

Some that I know of have bought minivans and tractors and have sold the buggy and the horse. Every time I drive through that area, I see more houses being wired for phone and electricity. I was in WalMart last week and saw an Amish woman pull a cell phone out of her handbad (traditional little sack with a drawstring) and answer it in German. Quite an unexpected and almost incongruous sight for me! Long cape dress, cap, sensible shoes, black stockings and a cell phone!

But, they do not appear to be joining conservative Mennonite churches. The CM churches in the area have not seen an increase in membership. The "new" Amiish are driving their minivans to Lord's Day meeting and parking them next to the buggies. I've seen it with my own eyes. It doesn't even seem that weird to me, because I know a lot of Beachy Amish that drive minivans and wear Amish traditional clothing.

The mennonite church I used to go to was an amalgamation of people who were born mennonite, converted to it, and people who came out of Amish traditions. It had a lot of leeway for people to express their culture and faith. We didn't dress alike or study out of the same translation. Some only liked the old hymns, some liked the CCM songs. Our primary bond was the commitment to the peace witness and living to serve God.

This new Amish society isn't like that. They appear to be retaining their traditional dress, language, lifestyle, faith and infinitely large family structure, while adding in these modern technologies.

artrx said:

The Grace Brethren Church i grew up in also had feet washing. it was a 2-hour long service that began with feetwashing, then a love feast(little sandwhiches), and then communion followed. It was a beautiful service, very meaningful for me and others but it was only celebrated twice a year. Washing anothers feet is a powerful experience of being a loving servant. It's symbolism is underutilized in many other churches.

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It was the same in my Grace Brethren church, and it is probably what I miss the most about having moved on.


*wonders* Did you have the little cheese sandwiches with the olive toothpicked to the top too?

Joykins said:

It was the same in my Grace Brethren church, and it is probably what I miss the most about having moved on.


*wonders* Did you have the little cheese sandwiches with the olive toothpicked to the top too?

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Sorry, I don't remember the exact sandwich. They do have a footwashing service in the Episcopal church, around Easter at my parish, but it's not celebrated in all churches and nothing like the one I grew up with. By the way, the church I grew up in was also in MD.

artrx said:

Sorry, I don't remember the exact sandwich. They do have a footwashing service in the Episcopal church, around Easter at my parish, but it's not celebrated in all churches and nothing like the one I grew up with. By the way, the church I grew up in was also in MD.

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Did we go to the same church? Was it a big one?

O.K - so prayer for guidance?

menno said:

Speaking of MD I was in Baltimore today, Highland to be exact, and talk about a sad looking area. There seemed to be a church on every corner but it was a really beat up area.

And all I could think was, this is where the church needs to be, not building edifices in the suburbs...yet there were churches on "every corner" so is ministry going on-and is enough going on? Just a thought....

It's funny, the guy I was riding with is a brother, and I said, "Careful, God may be calling you to move here" and he sighed and said "I hope not" but he said it in a way that said "Yes Lord I'll but isn't there someplace better?". Yeah, I'm riding with Johah

But I looked at the same place and thought, yeah, I wouldn't be afraid to live and minister here...I had a weird feeling, and being one not given to "feelings" it was odd...I just don't think my place of service involves being around a bunch of people like me (white middle class dude).

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I've been noticing lately that in just about every risky or impovershed neighborhood in the country, I've seen massive numbers of churches.

When we were on the rez last month, every single community had at least one church, some had two or more.

Yet those neighborhoods, those communities continue to be as poor, risky and hopeless as they always were.

The Church has been present on the reservations ever since they existed, and many people are Christian, but it doesn't seem to have an impact on the communities themselves.

The neighborhood I lived in innercity Cleveland had 18 churches, yet it was a neighborhood of neglected children, drug dealers and domestic violence.

Why?

Why doesn't the church have more of a positive impact on the places like these?

Is it possible that they are afraid to go out and take the evangelistic approach? Here where I am, our Pastor ran an ad for the church in the paper and included a little thing on salvation and in the next weeks paper, people had written nasty letters to the editor. I think what it comes down to is that the churches are there for those who decide to use them. Other than that, the reality is that people hate Jesus. They don't want to hear about him or church or christianity. Christianity seems to be the dirty word of the millenium. It's sad really.

DH and I visited a church last year that had recently moved to the 'burbs because their old location was becoming a rough neighborhood.
!!!
DH and I both thought it would be more appropriate for the church to move toward the rough neighborhood and impact it.
I have not seen this 'lots of churches in the bad areas' myself. I wonder why... But really, the preachers these days water down the Word to tickle those ears. There is no power left in most believers' lives.

My battery is dead, and this could be a long ramble, so better go now.

LunaticRed said:

Is it possible that they are afraid to go out and take the evangelistic approach? Here where I am, our Pastor ran an ad for the church in the paper and included a little thing on salvation and in the next weeks paper, people had written nasty letters to the editor. I think what it comes down to is that the churches are there for those who decide to use them. Other than that, the reality is that people hate Jesus. They don't want to hear about him or church or christianity. Christianity seems to be the dirty word of the millenium. It's sad really.

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Most of the people we met respect the church, and many even go to church and/or have made a profession of faith in Christ, yet the church hasn't made an impact in their lives.

It isn't indifference or hate that is causing the problem.

... But really, the preachers these days water down the Word to tickle those ears. There is no power left in most believers' lives.

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In some cases that's true, but in most cases it isn't.

That's what makes this problem so much more perplexing to me. It isn't indifference or shallowness that is keeping the church from impacting it's world.

There's something else going on, but I can't put my finger on it right now. There is a reason we can have a church every two blocks in this town and still be a place where I hear sirens 20 times a day.

menno said:

'Cause it's broken or dead

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That's an easy answer, but I'm not sure it's a correct one.

We met a bunch of pastors and other Christian workers on the rez, and none of them seemed broken or spiritually dead. They were all eager to make a difference in their communities, they just weren't making much headway, as was also the case for the 20 or so pastors before them.

Something else is at work on the rez and in Cleveland and other places like them. I don't know what it is, but there is definitely something not working right.

I hate to say it but, I don't feel as though church has made an impact on me. I got far more out of a weekly bible study.

I work in a church in mission.

I will read through the whole of this thread later today and if I have any comments I will share them.