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Serving God and Serving Mammon

Strivax

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Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 6:19-21, 24 KJV

So, in these capitalist days, who do you serve? And, if all we good people (as I am sure all visitors on this site are) serve God, how come there are still so many poor in the world, (fully one third of the global population being on less than $1.25 per day)? And how do we get the message across to the filthy rich and rotten powers that be that they can, if they want, do something to resolve this, and should, and must, and that if they don't, that is unacceptable?

Because, to be sure, if we have any love of God, and a slightest conception of His love of humanity, and desire for each of us to flourish as He intended, we cannot let our fellows subsist in such penury.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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OK, so twenty four hours and no criticisms. So far, so good.

Here, then, is one way, I suggest, to tell if you are serving God or serving Mammon.

If you took all the world's wealth, ($241 trillion) and all the world's income, ($105 trillion) and divided them by all the world's people (7.2 billion), you would arrive at a figure of $33,000 net worth per person, and income of $15,000 per person per year, approximately. A family of four therefore has an 'equitable allowance' of $132,000 net worth and $60,000 per year income. Obviously such figures can be adjusted no end to arrive at appropriate discounts and increments for local variations in the cost of food, housing, health-care and such. But, it is my contention that if your net worth and your net income are wildly higher than this, and you cannot or will not give away the excess to provide for people far more needy than you, then you need reconsider your allegiances.

God or Mammon? Your choice. But make it consciously, and make it wisely.

Cheers, Strivax.
 
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Greg J.

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You can't tell who a person is serving by how much money they have. Serving God or money is a matter of the heart. However, it is a pretty good start in identifying which Christians are trusting the Lord for their finances by whether they are tithing or not. God has given the wealthy their wealth; who has any right to complain?

“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ (Matthew 20:13-15, 1984 NIV)
 
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RedPonyDriver

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My "net worth" is enough to see me through as long as I live frugally. The rest of the $ that has passed through my hands is long gone. Not on myself, but given away. I don't need that much money to live. Living simply and frugally frees me up to spend time doing for others instead of being chained to a job to make money for things I don't need.

Our TOTAL monthly outlay (rent, utilities, car insurance, etc.) runs right about 2 grand a month, including gas, groceries and occasional fun. We don't need more than that. We don't want more than that. Our little apartment is cozy and just enough room for us. Our cars are old, paid for and well maintained. I love to shop at second hand stores and the 99 cent store.

There's no need for more, more, more. The more you have, the more you want.
 
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timewerx

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OK, so twenty four hours and no criticisms. So far, so good.

I've made threads like this in the past. Some had zero replies despite many view. Topics like these tend to be quite uncomfortable among many Christians.
 
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dysert

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Our TOTAL monthly outlay (rent, utilities, car insurance, etc.) runs right about 2 grand a month, including gas, groceries and occasional fun.
Wow, I'd like to know how you manage that, seeing how my cost *just for insurance premiums* is over $1,000 a month!
 
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Strivax

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You can't tell who a person is serving by how much money they have.

But I think you can. In this age of abject hunger and and obscene wealth existing simultaneously, (the top 1% owning as much as the whole of the rest of the world put together) I think you need to be a pretty ruthless son of a female dog to retain, say, a net worth in excess of $1,000,000, while others are so poor they cannot feed themselves or their families.

God has given the wealthy their wealth; who has any right to complain?

If God 'gives' us wealth, then, to be sure, He intends for us to use it with loving kindness to succour those He has not so endowed. But I think this idea of God giving us wealth a mistaken one. God does not give us wealth, the world does. God gives us talents. If we choose to use those talents to amass wealth for our own, then we have mistaken His purpose, which is not to massage our comfort and complacency, but for us each to serve each other (and, by implication, Him) justly and fairly, righteously and well.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Greg J.

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But I think you can. In this age of abject hunger and and obscene wealth existing simultaneously, (the top 1% owning as much as the whole of the rest of the world put together) I think you need to be a pretty ruthless son of a female dog to retain, say, a net worth in excess of $1,000,000, while others are so poor they cannot feed themselves or their families.
The media promotes the sensational and it paints an incorrect picture of people, society, and the world. It is easy to develop the perspective you seem to have because of the apparent large percentage of people who are both wealthy and self-focused. It is also because of people accepting their imagination and deductions as facts because they make sense to them. How many people do you know personally that make in excess of $1 mil?

However, these things are beside the point. God judges a person's heart and humans are not able to do so, so we like to fill in the blanks. But God said not to when he commanded in multiple places to not judge one another. For every person on earth that is wealthy by your standard, there are 5 people who are significantly poorer than you. What you say about wealthy people is the same as what the very poor could say about you. Why aren't you choosing to live on $15,000 (or whatever) per year and giving the rest to the poor? (Living in a cardboard box, a good winter coat, and enough food to eat makes a person better off than 900 million people on earth.) It only takes a few hundred dollars to pay for food for a person in abject poverty for a year. Someone with a $35,000 / year salary could be stopping starvation for 50-200 people. It takes even less to provide educational books for those 50 people, some of them highly motivated to work their way out of poverty. And even less than that to provide them with Bibles.
If God 'gives' us wealth, then, to be sure, He intends for us to use it with loving kindness to succour those He has not so endowed. But I think this idea of God giving us wealth a mistaken one. God does not give us wealth, the world does. God gives us talents. If we choose to use those talents to amass wealth for our own, then we have mistaken His purpose, which is not to massage our comfort and complacency, but for us each to serve each other (and, by implication, Him) justly and fairly, righteously and well.

Best wishes, Strivax.
"Intent" is not something we can know about individual people. More obvious is that we cannot know the ways they've been damaged in their lives and why they do things. It can be more difficult for a wealthy person to give 5% of their income to the poor than it is for someone poorer to give 20% of their income. God looks at the heart and all other things being equal would receive greater heavenly reward than the other.

You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. (John 8:15, 1984 NIV)

But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. (1 Timothy 6:8, 1984 NIV) It's a short list and does not include "see other people behaving the way we think they should."

for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Do everything without complaining or arguing, (Philippians 2:13-14, 1984 NIV) God is working in wealthy Christians to do what he wants. Why would anyone be more concerned about someone else's money than their eternal souls. A godly heart will be focused on helping save a wealthy person, not distributing their wealth, which God has not give anyone the authority to do. What right does anyone have to complain?

For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? (1 Corinthians 4:7, 1984 NIV) It is clear in Scripture that each of us is to be thankful for what one has. A person with this kind of heart will praise God for the wealth he gives other people.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:1-2, 1984 NIV)

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? (Matthew 7:3-4, 1984 NIV) Jesus does not say this about people who have poor judgment; he is saying this about everyone who judges another.

Each of us is just as spiritually guilty of abusing our wealth as any "wealthy" person (because we have all sinned): For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (James 2:10, 1984 NIV)

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ... So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? (Romans 2:1,3, 1984 NIV)

God will judge you for your wealth the same way you judge someone who is "wealthy." What kind of eternal judgment would you like to receive?
 
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John Davidson

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I don't have much money. I'm on social security and I only bring in 1300 a month. I give money to my church and our LCMS missionaries...as much as I can. I have a little money saved but it is going toward a funeral plot. I live very humbly. I give money to the homeless whenever I see them. I don't even own a car. I don't love mammon, I love God.
 
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aieyiamfu

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You can't tell who a person is serving by how much money they have. Serving God or money is a matter of the heart. However, it is a pretty good start in identifying which Christians are trusting the Lord for their finances by whether they are tithing or not. God has given the wealthy their wealth; who has any right to complain?

“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ (Matthew 20:13-15, 1984 NIV)
Tithing is not biblical, it is extortion by the church, however giving to the poor is very biblical so we can tell a heart by how a person tithes, hogwash.
 
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Strivax

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How many people do you know personally that make in excess of $1 mil?

Well, it all seems quite simple to me. There are people who have, and people who do not have. If the people who have gave freely to the people who do not have, the millions of lives lost to starvation, malnutrition and hunger-related complications per year, a holocaust by default of neglect, would be saved.

But God said not to when he commanded in multiple places to not judge one another. For every person on earth that is wealthy by your standard, there are 5 people who are significantly poorer than you.

As for judging, why yes, I judge, carefully, mindful of the Bible, and of the existential and eternal danger it puts me in. Nevertheless, God gave us a rational mind and a moral sense, precisely, I suggest, so that we could decide on ethical and moral matters. So, for instance, I judge murder to be wrong, as the commandment has it. Do you think I will be condemned for that? And I judge avarice to be wrong, following a long Christian tradition, that sees it as a deadly sin. Do you think I will be condemned for that? And when avarice meets murder, when some hog so much of the world's wealth that others have none of it, and starve to death, I judge that to be wrong, as well.

Do you think I will be condemned for that?

Best wishes, Strivax.


PS

What you say about wealthy people is the same as what the very poor could say about you. Why aren't you choosing to live on $15,000 (or whatever) per year and giving the rest to the poor?

I do. Unlike many, I actually practice what I preach.

S
 
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timewerx

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Why aren't you choosing to live on $15,000 (or whatever) per year and giving the rest to the poor? (Living in a cardboard box, a good winter coat, and enough food to eat makes a person better off than 900 million people on earth.) It only takes a few hundred dollars to pay for food for a person in abject poverty for a year. Someone with a $35,000 / year salary could be stopping starvation for 50-200 people. It takes even less to provide educational books for those 50 people, some of them highly motivated to work their way out of poverty. And even less than that to provide them with Bibles.

In my last job, I had a salary of only around $8,000 per year. I actually gave most of it to my parents, they were having difficult financial problems.

I only kept 10% of that to myself on average. Mostly to buy groceries. The company I worked for provided for our living accommodations and food but it's more like prison standard. Six people sharing one twelve square meter bedroom and the food is often poorly prepared/unhealthy to eat which is I still had to buy groceries like milk and bread so when the food in the canteen is bad, I'll have food in my room to eat. Even the roommates are terrible. The lack of empathy, even thefts are common, ironically, they act like real prison convicts!

When my parents have excess, some of the money I give to them ends up in our local church to help in missions and some to our poor relatives.

Despite the poor treatment, I still do my work 150% cheerfully. I never got mad at anyone at work, no matter how annoying they can be.

I do these things because it is what the Bible says. Basically, I just give away most of my income to those who need it more than me and my income is only small.
 
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Strivax

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In my last job, I had a salary of only around $8,000 per year...

Despite the poor treatment, I still do my work 150% cheerfully. I never got mad at anyone at work, no matter how annoying they can be.

I do these things because it is what the Bible says. Basically, I just give away most of my income to those who need it more than me and my income is only small.

I truly hope you find better employment real soon now, in an organisation that deserves, appreciates and values you.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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timewerx

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I truly hope you find better employment real soon now, in an organisation that deserves, appreciates and values you.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Thanks Strivax! I have already quit the job. I actually miss it, although the company is terrible, my co-workers are all very nice to me.
 
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Greg J.

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Tithing is not biblical, it is extortion by the church, however giving to the poor is very biblical so we can tell a heart by how a person tithes, hogwash.
I did not address whether it is a command from God or not. It is, however, Biblical that God will bless you if you tithe, even if your heart is against it, and your sinful nature ensures you're already under a curse if you don't.

“Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’ “In tithes and offerings.You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11, 1984 NIV)

For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? (1 Corinthians 9:9, 1984 NIV)

Tithing has nothing to do with farm produce. It has to do with countering our fallen perspective about who owns what, along with keeping people no different than ourselves out of eternal punishment—spreading the Good News and discipling people so they will be able to spread the Good News.
 
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Moxie123

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And how do we get the message across to the filthy rich and rotten powers that be that they can, if they want, do something to resolve this, and should, and must, and that if they don't, that is unacceptable?

Why is the responsibility of the "rotten powers that be" to fix it? Are they your master?
 
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aieyiamfu

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I did not address whether it is a command from God or not. It is, however, Biblical that God will bless you if you tithe, even if your heart is against it, and your sinful nature ensures you're already under a curse if you don't.

“Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’ “In tithes and offerings.You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11, 1984 NIV)

For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? (1 Corinthians 9:9, 1984 NIV)

Tithing has nothing to do with farm produce. It has to do with countering our fallen perspective about who owns what, along with keeping people no different than ourselves out of eternal punishment—spreading the Good News and discipling people so they will be able to spread the Good News.
Again there is no mandate on the church to tithe, you are quoting rules for isreal.
 
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Strivax

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Why is the responsibility of the "rotten powers that be" to fix it? Are they your master?

Well, it is the 'powers that be', rotten or otherwise, who make the laws and determine tax levels and directions of public expenditure. It seems sensible, since we elect them for precisely such purposes, to look to them to find solutions to the world's hunger problems. But they will only do this if their electorates demand it of them.

Cheers, Strivax.
 
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Kenny'sID

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“Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’

TV preachers LOVE that line, and to them, it is no more than just that, a line.

I don't tithe, but I wonder if I will be any less rewarded for what I do give, just because I don't give it to a church or as a tithe? The fewer middle men my money goes through on it's way to where it should go, the better. If you have a Church you can trust that's good, but I just feel more comfortable going directly to the charity.

I agree with the rich giving more to the poor, that is if the poor can't help being poor and don't just sit on their duffs waiting for the rich to give to them. How to get through to the rich to see that they give? I'd guess most are aware already...it's hard to miss.

On worshiping Mammon, what about some of the richest people in the Bible? let's take King Solomon for instance, and those like him that were well thought of by God and had plenty of excess...did they worship God or mammon? Did they serve 2 masters?
 
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