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Serious Questions

E.C.

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Perhaps someday I will see an error in my thinking, but science gives me solid calculated facts whereas in religion I am supposed to believe blindly out of "faith" and no the bible does not constitute as proof.
Blindly no, but out of faith yes. Blindly believing is a no-go in almost any Christian circle (with exception to the few crazies like the Westboro Baptists... ew).

Science and religion only conflict when one tries to do the job of the other.

Christianity is just as guilty as brutal violence in the past as anyother religion is. Though if you still follow the text in a modern way without taking it too serious it can no doubt lead to a great life.
Christianity is not a text-based religion.

This one fact I had a big problem with. If christianity is the correct religion then you would assume that our prayers be answered more often than anyother religion, hence there being an anomaly that may be measured and used, however this most certainly is not the case.
I can certainly tell you a few stories when the prayers of people were answered. Interested?


So a rough Theory: Maybe, and I do say this loosely, just maybe there perhaps was a god who planted the seeds for life, and eventually the human was evolved out of it, but the best explanation for religion is that Man is at the top of the food chain, man fears nothing but the unknown. So we rationalize and seek comfort out of various theories aka religions. It is our carnal instinct. Because we are but animals. To think that we are any different than an ape or a dog in the big picture is self righteous. We are all created out of star dust at the molecular level. Atoms and elements. Which has been proven.

Im not saying that I do not believe that there is some spirtual being but I have a scientific, analytical mind. Part of that is natural, part of it is trained. I simply cannot base my whole life on a complete whim/faith.

There is just as much if not more evidence that there is no monotheistic christain god than there isn't.
Hey, I myself am also and analytical mind! Though more in matters of History and culture than science.

If you would like to hear my story let me know. Or once I find the post where I do share my story (somewhere in the forum) I can share that as well.

But like I said at the beginning of this post, science and religion only conflict when one tries to do the job of the other.
 
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oi_antz

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After spending the last few days of doing research I came to a realization. That no matter what question I may ask, in someway you will be able to rationalize it to be associated with God and Christianity. No matter what scientifical fact I bring up, there is always an answer for it. "because god wanted it that way"

This is indeed an interesting fact. There are two sides to the fence, those on the side with God and those on the side without God. Would you agree or disagree? I'm going to presume you will agree because it's pretty obvious regardless which side you are on.

The reason we will associate information differently depending whether we are on side with God or not, comes down to our personal motives.

Those who know God will always look to see how information may build upon their current level of understanding, choosing to rationalize it in order to grow their understanding of God.

Those who don't know God will likewise look to see how information may build upon their current level of understanding, choosing to rationalize it in order to grow their understanding that God doesn't exist.

Can you see what happens? I'll tell you: The ones with faith in God grow closer to God, the ones without faith in God grow further from Him.
 
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aiki

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1. Why is Christianity the right religion, I only state the macro religion and not any sects to be easier to answer. Out of all the other religions out there and the millions of people that follow other religions what makes this one right?

Here are a number of points to consider:

1.) The God revealed to us in the Bible fits better with what reason and logic can deduce of the nature of the First Cause that brought the universe into being than any other non-Abrahamic religion. By necessity, God as the First Cause must be omnipotent, transcendent, personal, and unchanging. And this is exactly what the Bible reveals God to be.

2.) The fulfillment of prophecy that we see in Scripture strongly suggests a divine Source. No other religion has in its sacred text both prophecy and its fulfillment as the Bible does. Hundreds of years before Christ was born the Old Testament prophesied his coming and the purpose of his advent into the world. And it did so in specific detail, which Christ in the New Testament fulfilled in every respect.

3.) The resurrection of Christ is a powerful proof of his divine nature. His death, burial and resurrection are well-attested historical facts and set him and his claims to be "The Way, the Truth, and the Life," apart from every other founder of a religion. He didn't merely claim to reveal God, but to be God, and he proved it by rising from the dead.

2. If I am generally a good person with good intentions through life but do not embrace the cross do I become damned in the afterlife? To me that doesn't seem right, as it probably isn't but please explain.

By what standard do you judge yourself to be a "good person"? God sets Himself as the standard and He is perfectly holy. Are you perfectly holy? If not, you don't measure up. And for this reason, God will reject you and set you eternally separate from Himself if you should die before receiving for yourself the remedy for your sin that He has provided.

Are you as good as Mother Theresa? Have you given your life in service to the poor, sick, and marginalized? Probably not. So, then, not only are you not as good as God, but there are some humans who are, comparatively speaking, more good than you. How much less good than such people do you have to be before you no longer deserve to go to heaven? Where's the cut-off point? And who decides where that point should be? God provides an objective, authoritative standard by which all people are judged.

Also, God has at terrible cost to Himself made a way for you to measure up. He will cover you in the perfect righteousness of Christ and in so doing make you acceptable to Himself. He did this, not because you deserved such a gift, but because He is a loving God. When a person who is aware of the sacrifice God has made of His only Son on a cross rejects or ignores that sacrifice he offers a profound affront to God. It is appropriate that such an affront suffers the eternal wrath of God.

3. Why is it such a big deal to "spread the gospel", wouldn't there be a lot more peace if that one single line would be eradicated from all religions and let everybody choose themselves.

Although the gospel is spread it is not forced upon people. The gospel is believed and embraced by choice and so is not a kind of religious aggression of the sort you find, say, in Islam.

4. Did not men write the bible, and is it not the nature of man to err.

The writers of the Bible claim divine inspiration. Under the guidance of God Himself it doesn't seem reasonable to think the original version of the Bible was in error.

5. If there is a god, why does he allow brutal killings of innocent people everyday. Why has he allowed for society to evolve to the point where the justice system does not seem to be able to convict and punish evil violent crime convicts.

If God prevented or punished every wrong step a person made, they would be nothing more than a puppet. Could you imagine what it would be like if God gave you stomach cramps every time you had a lustful thought? Or what if He caused boils to break out all over your face every time you told a lie? How would you feel about that? It would be very annoying to have God intervening all the time this way, I think.

How can we be truly free moral agents if we are prevented from experiencing the consequences of our moral choices? Our free choice is meaningless if the consequences of our bad moral choices are prevented.

Humanity has chosen the state in which it presently finds itself. It is not God's fault that we choose evil rather than good.

And whose to say God hasn't intervened many times throughout human history to forestall or thwart evil? In fact, He has. He doesn't stop all evil, but He does prevent some of it as it serves His purposes to do so. The story of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt is a good example.

6. What are his explanations of space, the universe and the scientifically undoubtable fact that life does exist elsewhere.

"Scientifically undoubtable"? In fact, the idea that there is alien life somewhere out in the universe is entirely speculative. There is not one single shred of evidence even to suggest that there is life elsewhere in the universe.

What do you mean "what are his explanations..."? Who is the "he" you're speaking of? Are you wanting an explanation from a Christian perspective for why the universe exists?

7. If there truely was a monotheistic Christian god then why are other religions allowed. Especially when the majority of the other people in these religions have no exposure to christianity and thus are never even given the option to convert. Do they go to hell as well?

Other religions are allowed so that we may be truly free to make, and be fully responsible for, our choices. What freedom of choice could we claim to have if God made it so that we could only worship Him? God would have the devotion of slaves or robots under such circumstances, not the love of true believers.

The Bible suggests that God takes into account in judging people their access to His truth. No one can claim utter ignorance of God, however, because the world, and the universe, and our conscience declare Him very plainly. What one does with that revelation will be the basis upon which they are judged.

These are just a few I have and I want to see if anybody actually responds before I post more. Again I am not trying to appear offensive nor should it ever be taken like that. I simply want answers that I feel should be explained to me before I accept any religion as my own.

You are not offensive in the least. I appreciate that you are taking a thoughtful approach in considering the claims of Christianity. Ask away!

Selah.
 
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Burt Gummer

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Aiki- Read my later posts, as much of the points you were addressing have already been replied to by myself. If not then, well I'm wrong lol.

oi_antz- I consider it Bias, it can be seen in anything really, politics, debates, and in this case religion. I will rationalize it in anyway that makes me feel better or feel that it is right. Both ways.



E.C Of course I would like to hear your story/examples of prayers being answered. However know that I will look at it in a logical scientific "open" mind. So if any of it can be attributed to science, or something that makes sense to me in my life I will point that out. I also appreciate true analysists, that break down something and attempt to see the cause and effect of every conceivable circumstance.


Razeontherock- Okay, I'm obviously not a mature Christain so why don't you enlighten us.

Maize- I really enjoyed reading your open minded responses, you seemed to be quite modern and accepting of other peoples questions and beliefs. Perhaps some insight on the video from your own perspective?
 
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razeontherock

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You're asking me to take away G-d's sovereign right to raise you as His child, and thinking I can somehow do that? You a funny guy. Entire books have been written on the subject of why bad things happen to good people (why doesn't anybody address why good things happen to bad people?) and speaking with many who have read them, they still don't get it.

Maturity is a process. It starts at the beginning. In Christianity, that is often referred to as "the foot of the Cross." THAT, is something i can help you find!
 
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Burt Gummer

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Razeontherock:


"good things happen to bad people" "bad things happen to good people"- Exact same in the context of which it was used and the point that was trying to be proven by the creator of the video, and by myself as well.

I certainly wasn't asking you to help me be mature, because in all aspects of the word I believe I fit the bill quite nicely. However your passive aggressive post of "all mature christains already have an answer to this" obviously did not apply to me as I am not a christain, and hence thereof no way consider myself to be a "mature christain".

I also do not see how you are helping me "find the foot of the cross" as I do not feel any closer to finding it after reading your posts.

Burt
 
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razeontherock

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Are you looking for the foot of the cross? (Or however you might want to refer to it) No pretense here; it doesn't seem so. If you disagree feel free to correct me.

It's quite strange for you to think of my statement as somehow being passive aggressive. Your icon is enough to tell me you're not a Christian, and therefore being a mature Christian is a total impossibility for you. Why do you have the need to be defensive and attack me over that? Pretty silly, wouldn't you say?

It won't stop me from declaring the Truth, if that's your objective. Mature Christians DO have the answer to that question. What is it about that fact that bothers you?
 
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Burt Gummer

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Razeontherock: You think I am attacking you? If I wanted to attack you, you would know it, is essentially what I do in this life. Now please stop being so sensitive, trying to pursue a little internet feud is not helping make you look like a "mature christian".

Alas stop going with the "TRUTH" route, quite ignorant, close minded and arrogant. You don't know what the truth is, you only have faith. Which I have no problem with in the slightest, but to claim you know the truth would seem to be an insult to god himself claiming you are on his level. Oh well thats what I interperted.

Burt
 
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oi_antz

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oi_antz- I consider it Bias, it can be seen in anything really, politics, debates, and in this case religion. I will rationalize it in anyway that makes me feel better or feel that it is right. Both ways.

Yes Burt, I do consider it bias. However to decide to receive something just because we feel it is better or right does not really address the issue that for Christians we accept God's point of view regardless of what we want it to be. I want to ask you whether you're interested in learning about Christianity or not, because you seem to be ignoring or contesting the answers you are being given, and if you really are only interested in arguing then I'm not interested in helping you understand when you're not interested in trying to understand. Could you let me know please, cheers.
 
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Burt Gummer

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oi_antz: I felt like I answered your question without a hint of aggression or argumentive tone. Do you people live in the real world? In fact after looking back at what I said I did not give the slightest hint of aggressive text towards you. Merely explaining why christianity and its accompanying beliefs are so accepted from christains, because they are bias to believe so. The term bias, is contary to popular belief not a negative word, simply an explanatory word used to described somebodys opinion as we are ALL bias. If I did not want to attempt to learn about christianity I would not be here, however I want to hear peoples "true" opinions, not some bible rhetoric that I could look up my self. I want to hear how people rationalize things, how and why they believe. Perhaps I should of specified.


Edit: for example why do you choose to believe something the bible says, if you personally may not agree with it. Didn't God create you as you are? So you would be going against Gods will.

Burt
 
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ephraimanesti

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Razeontherock: You think I am attacking you? If I wanted to attack you, you would know it, is essentially what I do in this life. Now please stop being so sensitive, trying to pursue a little internet feud is not helping make you look like a "mature christian".

Alas stop going with the "TRUTH" route, quite ignorant, close minded and arrogant. You don't know what the truth is, you only have faith. Which I have no problem with in the slightest, but to claim you know the truth would seem to be an insult to god himself claiming you are on his level. Oh well thats what I interperted.

Burt
MY DEAR MR. GUMMER,

Know that in Truth THE Truth is not a "what" but a "Who."

Coming to the realization of this Truth might well be your first step on the road to spiritual understanding. May you take it quickly! Always remember, Burt: "The student who fails to grasp the basics never advances beyond the playground," and you will be tripping over that Blue Question Mark for all eternity.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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Burt Gummer

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ephraimanesti- So to say you know the truth, means you know that there is a god? Is that correct? I seem to not understand that point please explain.

also, by being here on this website, instead of doing the infinite amount of other activities I feel like I am being somewhat of a student, I am attempting to talk and learn from christains what they themselves truely believe. However what If I was created with the inability to accept christ or any on monotheistic religion, if creation does exist the only person who created me would of been god, along with the mental personalities and beliefs that I have aquired. I have a different mind than many, and I do not feel at this current point of my life that I would be happy, or content accepting Christianity. ALTHOUGH, that does not mean that I do not want to learn, idealisticaly if I could be convinced that Christianity is true, and the correct path to righteousness I would be overwhelmed with Joy.

Burt
 
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oi_antz

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oi_antz: I felt like I answered your question without a hint of aggression or argumentive tone. Do you people live in the real world? In fact after looking back at what I said I did not give the slightest hint of aggressive text towards you. Merely explaining why christianity and its accompanying beliefs are so accepted from christains, because they are bias to believe so. The term bias, is contary to popular belief not a negative word, simply an explanatory word used to described somebodys opinion as we are ALL bias. If I did not want to attempt to learn about christianity I would not be here, however I want to hear peoples "true" opinions, not some bible rhetoric that I could look up my self. I want to hear how people rationalize things, how and why they believe. Perhaps I should of specified.


Edit: for example why do you choose to believe something the bible says, if you personally may not agree with it. Didn't God create you as you are? So you would be going against Gods will.

Burt

No, I did not suggest you had been agressive, I suggested you have not been listening to the answers. We don't apply our own preconceptions to the Bible when we read, instead we seek for a new revelation, to learn something we didn't already know. To only look for confirmation of our beliefs in the Bible is called "cherry picking" and is not the recommended way to go.

Did you consider my post about reading the gospels and seeing whether you can find a fault in Jesus? His life is the very crux of Christianity and if you were to perform this action then you would very quickly discover whether you should believe in Jesus or not.
 
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aiki

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Aiki- Read my later posts, as much of the points you were addressing have already been replied to by myself. If not then, well I'm wrong lol.

Actually, I don't think you did address my points in your later replies. There is some slight overlap in my comments and the comments of other posters, but not enough for your responses to them to be a useful or thoughtful response to my comments. In any case, if you'd rather not bother responding directly that's okay. You seem to have your hands full with other posters...

Selah.
 
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Burt Gummer

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oi_antz- I hope this somebody doesn't read these and consider it "debating" I am simply asking counter questions to attempt to expand and clarify what you are saying.

I do understand what you mean about reading the bible to "learn something we did not know" my question back is, the bible is but words and scripture, and this comes back to the bias thing. To me something the bible says is something completely different than what it would be to you. This is why we see extremists in every religion.

Now for there to be a "true" correct religion would not god give everybody the ability to read the bible and in an objective way think to themselves "yes I can agree, and relate to this completely" I just do not feel like I have that ability.

I have not done what you suggested, but i have a copy of the "new testament" on my bedside awaiting me. Where do you suggest I begin? The more "jesus references, associations" is where I would love to start looking. Also, should I consider doing the same with the Old testament? Must admit I do not have a copy of that. Though the trusty internet surely does.

Thankyou,
Burt
 
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razeontherock

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Now for there to be a "true" correct religion would not god give everybody the ability to read the bible and in an objective way think to themselves "yes I can agree, and relate to this completely"

No! I am quite analytical by nature, and could tell you in great detail about this process to which you refer. The short answer is still no. More emphatically, each day's revelation is different!

Going back to what E said, Truth is not merely knowing there IS a G-d. In the context of his response, it's knowing Jesus, personally. This concept seems to offend you. It's ok, and something we all understand.

Btw, anybody that actually knows him has learned to dispose of arrogance and that list of things you desperately used to try to attack me with, killer. ^_^

Reading through the NT is good. I like the approach of starting in John's Gospel, because it covers the basics and gets you to the rest quicker. I find the rest of the NT adds a lot to the Gospels, so the first 3 would have more meaning read after the rest of the NT. Nothing wrong with starting at the beginning of the NT and just reading it through. Eventually the OT becomes important, but spend time w/ the NT first.

Revelation won't mean a whole lot to you until you truly master all of the OT as well, but it's the only book with the promise of Blessing just for reading it.
 
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Burt Gummer

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Aiki-
1. That is an educated nicely put explanation that although I do not know if I am ready to accept of believe as of now, it does make sense from the Christian perspective.

2. I apologize for giving the perception that I meant my self, as I am surely am not as good as other people in this world. Am I to understand that you are still coming to the conclusion, that no matter how well of a life a person may leave, if they deny Jesus dying for our sins they will still face judgment?

3. Perhaps not as much in modern times, but throughout history, yes Christianity has most certainly been forced upon people coercively and violently. There should be no excuse for it back then as there is none for it today.

4. May I ask what “claiming divine inspiration” means? And is not a copy of the Old Testament the original version, not the newer modern “new testament” I may be wrong on that. Please clarify.

5. Good explanation.

6. There is no more evidence for “life elsewhere” than there is for a god however “life elsewhere can be looked at in a mathematical equation whereas “god” can not. I meant “Christianity’s” perspective

7. Another good explanation, however I disagree with the fact that “everybody” in someway has a way of learning about Jesus.

Thank you for your time and the obvious thought you put into your answers, I am in a bit of a hurry so please excuse any brief grammatical blemishes that may arise.

Burt
 
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Burt Gummer

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Razeontherock- Thankyou for you input on the OT and NT. Also why do you censor the word God? I ask out of curiousity.

Knowing Jesus does not offend me, I just do not understand how you can say that you do. Unless you refer to knowing Jesus as a metaphorical way of knowing the bible, seems to be the only logical explanation to that.

Again, I am not attacking you. I would of used profanity and very vulgar references if I was. This is called tounge in cheek jabbing. So enough with that. I truely do not see how you can be a mature christain if you refuse to drop that. Bring me up to your level, don't come down to mine right? ;)

Burt
 
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oi_antz

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oi_antz- I hope this somebody doesn't read these and consider it "debating" I am simply asking counter questions to attempt to expand and clarify what you are saying.
Humans can help each other with understanding, that's for sure. But for you to really comprehend what God says you need to ask Him directly. I suggest before you read the Bible, get your heart in the right place, prepare yourself to learn what He wants you to know. We can't absorb the whole Bible by reading it once, what we get when we read it is what God wants us to know. So before reading, get in your mind a clear understanding that God is the supreme creator, pray to Him a simple prayer "Dear God, I know you listen whenever we pray to you. I ask you as I read now, to reveal to me the answers you deem suitable for me", then read until you receive the revelation that makes you think beyond what you already know.
I do understand what you mean about reading the bible to "learn something we did not know" my question back is, the bible is but words and scripture, and this comes back to the bias thing. To me something the bible says is something completely different than what it would be to you. This is why we see extremists in every religion.
It depends on the context in which you read the Bible. If you revere it as the Word of God, then you will be prepared to hear what the Holy Spirit of God says to you. If on the other hand, you consider it merely a collection of words inscribed by cavemen, then you haven't provided sufficient worship to esteem the Bible as being the official "Word of God". Take a look at this thread, which has been discussing the role of the Holy Spirit when we read the Bible: http://www.christianforums.com/t7506423/

Also, consider this verse:
Matthew 11:25 (New International Version)

Rest for the Weary

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
To me this means that if we are to discover the true meaning that God has for us, we must humble ourselves and accept that in comparison to God our understandings are puny. If on the other hand we are so proud thinking we know everything, God will not reveal to us what we want to know. I'm curious, do you read this verse to mean the same, or do you get a different interpretation when you read this verse?
Now for there to be a "true" correct religion would not god give everybody the ability to read the bible and in an objective way think to themselves "yes I can agree, and relate to this completely" I just do not feel like I have that ability.
And this is a common problem for anyone not having already established a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Do remember though that God will never fail to provide you what you need to advance your walk with Him, so if you pray for His guidance, and give the Bible sufficient reverence as being "God's Word", then you'll definitely find something fulfilling when you read it.
I have not done what you suggested, but i have a copy of the "new testament" on my bedside awaiting me. Where do you suggest I begin? The more "jesus references, associations" is where I would love to start looking. Also, should I consider doing the same with the Old testament? Must admit I do not have a copy of that. Though the trusty internet surely does.
I think Matthew is a good place to begin. Even after reading that one book you will have understood exactly what happened during Jesus' testimony to earth, and you'll either be of the opinion that what He did was incredibly perfect, or that you'll have some questions about why He might have done something in particular, which you should bring to discussion. The old testament helps us to understand what led to the new testament, but I would say begin with the new testament and once you understand what happened during Jesus' life and afterwards, the old testament will be complimentary to it, but certainly the new testament is much easier to follow if you are new to the religion and it will give you a good understanding of the moral and ethical values of Christianity.
Thankyou,
Burt
Thank yourself Burt! I hope you find the answers you need :)
 
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