Serious question about the future of gays and the church

[MikeK]

The Church does not consider the gay lifestyle an alternative lifestyle. Catholic Church teaching is that the homosexual orientation is a disorder.

You are spreading a false teachings, and for the 2nd time in this thread I ask you to stop. The Church states that homosexual attraction is disordered, not that the orientation is a disorder. The difference may at first seem subtle, but it is not. All sexual attractions that are not ordered toward the two purposes of sexual attraction (to create children and bring a husband and wife closer together) are disordered. Not all people who wish to avoid children or have sex out of wedlock have a disorder.

 

[Antigone]

I expect that eventually, the gay issue will die out. Why? Because the do not procreate. I do not believe there are more gays now than there was hundreds of years ago. I do believe there will be more diseases among the gay populations. I do believe that homosexuality will die out in a few centuries.


Janice

1. Homosexuality is not genetic, so 'gays don't procreate' is irrelevant.
2. Sexuallity is fluid but I've heard that up to 20% of the populations harbours same-sex tendencies to some degree. This has been the case for centuries. Some societies (Greek, early Islamic I believe) were or are more open about it than others, but homosexuality has always existed, whether covert or not.
3. The number of aids infections in the gay community has dropped because of a better understanding and comprehensive sex ed. Also, less people die of AIDS and HIV; I think people with HIV who get treated early on have the same life expectancy as non-infected people provided they take their medication. The same goes for other STDs such as Hepatitis, which, statistically, affect more heterosexuals than homosexuals.

 

[Hetta]

How can homosexuality "die out" when heterosexual couples produce homosexual children?

 

[catholicbybirth]

How can homosexuality "die out" when heterosexual couples produce homosexual children?

Well, I mean dying out as a fad. You know, once the novelty wears off. I mean, heterosexual marriages are dying out. So you know, eventually, even homosexual "marriages" will die out. People will learn from their pastors that homosexuality is a sin, even the silly Christian religions who are presently celebrating homosexuality, will say that homosexuality is against God's law.


Janice

 

[5fish5chips]

Well, I mean dying out as a fad. You know, once the novelty wears off. I mean, heterosexual marriages are dying out. So you know, eventually, even homosexual "marriages" will die out. People will learn from their pastors that homosexuality is a sin, even the silly Christian religions who are presently celebrating homosexuality, will say that homosexuality is against God's law.


Janice

 

[Hetta]

Well, I mean dying out as a fad. You know, once the novelty wears off. I mean, heterosexual marriages are dying out. So you know, eventually, even homosexual "marriages" will die out. People will learn from their pastors that homosexuality is a sin, even the silly Christian religions who are presently celebrating homosexuality, will say that homosexuality is against God's law.


Janice

Homosexuality has been around since people have been around. In what way is that a 'fad'?

 

[Rhamiel]

Homosexuality has been around since people have been around. In what way is that a 'fad'?

the ancient romans and the greeks had no problem with some forms of homosexuality

but they never thought that gay marriage was a thing
they had too much respect for the idea of the family
maybe we will go back to that?
maybe that is what was meant by "fad"

 

[Tallguy88]

the ancient romans and the greeks had no problem with some forms of homosexuality

but they never thought that gay marriage was a thing
they had too much respect for the idea of the family
maybe we will go back to that?
maybe that is what was meant by "fad"

They also thought that a father had the right to murder his wife and children (regardless of age) if they offended him. They also had no problem with abortion and killing babies by exposure.

Needless to say, I don't look to Romans as an example of "family values".

 

[Tallguy88]

Homosexuality has been around since people have been around. In what way is that a 'fad'?

I believe the "fad" is the acceptance and promotion of homosexual relations as equal to hetro relations.

I don't know if it's a fad in that it will go away, but it is faddish in how people jump in the bandwagon for it.

 

[Rhamiel]

You are spreading a false teachings, and for the 2nd time in this thread I ask you to stop. The Church states that homosexual attraction is disordered, not that the orientation is a disorder. The difference may at first seem subtle, but it is not. All sexual attractions that are not ordered toward the two purposes of sexual attraction (to create children and bring a husband and wife closer together) are disordered. Not all people who wish to avoid children or have sex out of wedlock have a disorder.

it is disordered in so much as there is no virtuous expression of homosexual desire

if a man has an erotic attraction to a woman, then it is conceivable that they could get married and have procreative sex and that desire would be fulfilled

same with other natural desires, if someone is hungry, they can eat

ofcourse these desires can be abused and perverted
but there is a natural and virtuous expression of them

homosexual erotic desires, much like inappropriate behavior with animals, have no virtuous expression
and are thus disordered in a different manner then regular sins of lust

you are correct that ALL sin is a disorder to some degree, but I think you are glossing over some of the nuance

 

[Antigone]

They also thought that a father had the right to murder his wife and children (regardless of age) if they offended him. They also had no problem with abortion and killing babies by exposure.

Or having sex with their slaves. Plus, the ancient Greeks thought women were worthless. They weren't allowed to leave the house unaccompanied, were treated like dirt, and regarded as stupid and only useful because they had a womb (Romans did a little better in that department, and so did the Spartans, but not that much).

 

[MikeK]

it is disordered in so much as there is no virtuous expression of homosexual desire

if a man has an erotic attraction to a woman, then it is conceivable that they could get married and have procreative sex and that desire would be fulfilled

same with other natural desires, if someone is hungry, they can eat

ofcourse these desires can be abused and perverted
but there is a natural and virtuous expression of them

Right on.

homosexual erotic desires, much like inappropriate behavior with animals, have no virtuous expression
and are thus disordered in a different manner then regular sins of lust

Nope. Lust is always a sin. Sexual attraction, homosexual or heterosexual, does not mean lust. Lust is above and beyond mere attraction. Attraction is natural and cannot be stopped by healthy means. Lust is always evil (in or out of marriage).

you are correct that ALL sin is a disorder to some degree, but I think you are glossing over some of the nuance

All sin is disordered behavior, but not all sin is indicative of the presence of a disorder. To experience homosexual attractions is not a disorder. The attractions are disordered.

 

[Rhamiel]

Nope. Lust is always a sin. Sexual attraction, homosexual or heterosexual, does not mean lust. Lust is above and beyond mere attraction. Attraction is natural and cannot be stopped by healthy means. Lust is always evil (in or out of marriage).



All sin is disordered behavior, but not all sin is indicative of the presence of a disorder. To experience homosexual attractions is not a disorder. The attractions are disordered.

I am sort of confused?
ofcourse lust is always a sin, I agree with you on that, and all sin is disordered

but heterosexual attraction is not disordered, it is seeking after something good, heterosexual lust is sinful and disordered

homosexual attraction is not a sin, but it is disordered, in so much as there is no natural way to satisfy that desire

 

[MikeK]

Correct on all points. Homosexual attraction is disordered but it's presence does not indicate that the person has a disorder. Homosexual attraction, though disordered, is not a disorder.

 

[catholicbybirth]

Thank you for the insult.

 

[catholicbybirth]

Homosexuality has been around since people have been around. In what way is that a 'fad'?

Well, unless Adam and Eve had 8 children, I really do not believe that homosexuality has been around since people have been around. If so, was Adam the first homosexual? Who did he have sex with?


Also, when the Ancients were having their homosexual intimate relations, no one condoned it, held it up as being good. And when everyone was having sex with anyone and everyone, in every way imaginable, God destroy Sodom. So, I'm sure after that it was not accepted as it is now.

Janice

 

[catholicbybirth]

Correct on all points. Homosexual attraction is disordered but it's presence does not indicate that the person has a disorder. Homosexual attraction, though disordered, is not a disorder.

Doublespeak. Have you read 1984?

How can something be disordered and not be a disorder at the same time?

Janice

 

[catholicbybirth]

Anecdotally, I know two different lesbian women who have children and live in long term, cohabitating gay relationships.

The children in these cases seem well adjusted and heterosexual.

Things are not always what they seem.

Janice

 

[Genersis]

Things are not always what they seem.

Janice

What are you implying about such kids, and what justifies this likely negative implication?

 

[Rhamiel]

Correct on all points. Homosexual attraction is disordered but it's presence does not indicate that the person has a disorder. Homosexual attraction, though disordered, is not a disorder.

you seem to be huffing and puffing a lot over a very small distinction

why can I not call homosexual desire a disorder?
what about the term disorder can not be applied to homosexuality?
I think that the presence of homosexual attraction shows that the person is disordered.

instead of building up fellow Catholics, you seem to focus on fighting tooth and nail over semantics