Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
You need to take it up a notch, fragment. If you really want to mess with the Uberconservatives, you have to ask:
Should public school teachers have a right to say "I'm gay and this is why..."?
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Seperation of Church and state
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You need to take it up a notch, fragment. If you really want to mess with the Uberconservatives, you have to ask:
Should public school teachers have a right to say "I'm gay and this is why..."?
panterapat
Praise God in all things!
None of us is going to convince the other, but I promise you this:
You non-believers are in my prayers. I say this not santamoniously but sincerely. Peace be with you all!
Patrick
You non-believers are in my prayers. I say this not santamoniously but sincerely. Peace be with you all!
Patrick
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
I take it you're throwing in the towel then?
I could easily be convinced by you. All you have to do is:
1. Read my post, # 60.
2. Prove to me that children aren't taught to do and believe whatever teachers and other authority figures tell them to.
3. Prove to me that the law doesn't treat minors the way I say it does.
4. Prove to me that government schools endorsing religion is not the same as the government endorsing religion.
5. Prove to me that the Esablishment Clause doesn't forbid this.
6. Do this without committing any logical fallacies or misrepresentations of the facts or law.
Then, I'll be convinced.
If you really want to convince me, you'll go to post #61 after that, and endorse that hypothetical statement as you expect me to endorse yours. After all, they are more or less saying the exact same thing, right?
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panterapat
Praise God in all things!
"Minors, by legal definition, are not mature enough to think critically or to make their own decisions. They are used to accepting whatever a teacher says as incontrovertable fact. At younger ages, they are also eager, sometimes desperate, to seek approval from authority figures."
"Therefore, a teacher who endorses their particular brand of religion is, by definition, preaching, whether they realize it or not. Add to this the fact that public schools accept tax dollars, which make them de facto government institutions.
"Add it all up, and the government is sponsoring a religion; precisely the sort of thing the Establishment clause expressly prohibits."
REBUTTAL to post #63-
1. Done
2. How can I disprove something that is almost always true? Some teachers teach students to think for themselves but not many.
3. Minors are minors without full rights or mature knowledge(usually)
4. Gov't schools do not endorse religion. Only private schools can do this.
5. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
How is something "established"? According to Mr. Weber, establish means:
to make firm, to institute permanately, to institute by law, to make a church a national institution
Established Church is defined as: a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation.
King George imposed The Church of England upon those who eventually chose to flee to the New World for religious freedom. In the Declaration of Independence the Founding Fathers addressed this when they claimed that these freedoms are self evident, we are endowed by our creator,. They were telling the king that God is the arbitor of Man's rights, not a government. (but I digress)
The biggest falacy of the "seperation of church and state" crowd (BTW- not found in the Constitution) is that they forget the second part of this clause:
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
A single teacher, making a religious comment, is not akin to establishing a religion. What that teacher is doing is "free exercise". For the school to have a plan, a policy, a preponderance for religious preaching, might be an establishment. This does not happen in public schhools.
I am a Catholic, but my children learned about the 5 pillars of Islam in school. Nothing was ESTABLISHED here. It seems that Christianity is the only religion that can be dissed without reprisals from the PC crowd. People seem to have an inordinate fear of Christianity.
6. I hope I passed
But I thought the crux of these discussions was: Is this nation founded under God?
I'll let these Founding Fathers speak for me in this regard.
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."
-Benjemin Rush
"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."
-James Madison
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
-George Washington
These men, who sought religious and political freedom were wise enough to know that religion is a personal matter to be decided by the individual alone. BUT-BUT-BUT
It is their underlaying Christian principles that led them to this wise conclusion.
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."
-John Adams
No, the gov't will not establish a religion but our Founding Fathers knew that religion and morality were necessary for this"great experiment" to work.
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams
In Christ, Patrick
"Therefore, a teacher who endorses their particular brand of religion is, by definition, preaching, whether they realize it or not. Add to this the fact that public schools accept tax dollars, which make them de facto government institutions.
"Add it all up, and the government is sponsoring a religion; precisely the sort of thing the Establishment clause expressly prohibits."
REBUTTAL to post #63-
1. Done
2. How can I disprove something that is almost always true? Some teachers teach students to think for themselves but not many.
3. Minors are minors without full rights or mature knowledge(usually)
4. Gov't schools do not endorse religion. Only private schools can do this.
5. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
How is something "established"? According to Mr. Weber, establish means:
to make firm, to institute permanately, to institute by law, to make a church a national institution
Established Church is defined as: a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation.
King George imposed The Church of England upon those who eventually chose to flee to the New World for religious freedom. In the Declaration of Independence the Founding Fathers addressed this when they claimed that these freedoms are self evident, we are endowed by our creator,. They were telling the king that God is the arbitor of Man's rights, not a government. (but I digress)
The biggest falacy of the "seperation of church and state" crowd (BTW- not found in the Constitution) is that they forget the second part of this clause:
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
A single teacher, making a religious comment, is not akin to establishing a religion. What that teacher is doing is "free exercise". For the school to have a plan, a policy, a preponderance for religious preaching, might be an establishment. This does not happen in public schhools.
I am a Catholic, but my children learned about the 5 pillars of Islam in school. Nothing was ESTABLISHED here. It seems that Christianity is the only religion that can be dissed without reprisals from the PC crowd. People seem to have an inordinate fear of Christianity.
6. I hope I passed
But I thought the crux of these discussions was: Is this nation founded under God?
I'll let these Founding Fathers speak for me in this regard.
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments... Without religion, I believe learning does much mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."
-Benjemin Rush
"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."
-James Madison
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
-George Washington
These men, who sought religious and political freedom were wise enough to know that religion is a personal matter to be decided by the individual alone. BUT-BUT-BUT
It is their underlaying Christian principles that led them to this wise conclusion.
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."
-John Adams
No, the gov't will not establish a religion but our Founding Fathers knew that religion and morality were necessary for this"great experiment" to work.
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams
In Christ, Patrick
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crazyfingers
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James Madison
"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--<I>James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238</I>
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
Madison wrote the 1st amendment you know.
"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."--<I>George Washington, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught</I>
John Adams also said:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--<I>John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson</I>
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."--<I>John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught</I>
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." <I>--John Adams</I>
How about Thomas Paine?
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--<I>Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason</I>
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."--<I>Thomas Paine</I>"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." --<I> Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_</I>
How about Ben Franklin?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--<I>Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758</I>
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- <I>Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught</I>
</I>"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--<I>Benjamin Franklin</I>
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I find the argument "your hurting my rights by not allowing me to step on your freedom." Its a very funny argument.
Freedom is for all. So unless we segregate our schools into religions groups, that argument holds no water, since by supposably exercising your freedom, you are stepping on mine, then I am not trully free, and its not really freedom for all, now is it?
Freedom is for all. So unless we segregate our schools into religions groups, that argument holds no water, since by supposably exercising your freedom, you are stepping on mine, then I am not trully free, and its not really freedom for all, now is it?
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SUNSTONE
Christian Warrior
Kids are not a captive audience. There are many home schooled students. There is no law that says a kid has to goto a public school.
Kids are taught a religion/beliefs every day. Taught the belief in money, the belief that there are right and wrongs. The fact that a teacher doesn't mention God, is giving the impretion that the teacher doesn't believe in God. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE TEACHING EVOLUTION SCIENCE, AND NOT EVEN MENTIONING CREATIONISM.
People say that kids should make up there own minds about what they believe when they grow up. But then those same people will teach them what they believe is right and wrong, as if they had a clue to what is right and wrong. If you discipline a kid for doing something you don't like, guess what? You are pushing your beliefs on them. I believe in teaching kids about God right from the start, because I am convinced with all my heart that there is a God, and that His name is Jesus Christ! I have so many testimonies and my life is constantly changing.
Beliefs are being taught every day, either by word or deed. But freedom of speech is under attack.
By the way, to that person who says "do you think a teacher should say "I am gay..." ." They teach about homosexuality in schools, as if it is ok for this type of lifestyle. Then when some kid wants to do a project on Jesus, it gets shut down by the schoolboard. Or if kids want to pray, it too gets shut down.
If a teacher wants to say there gay and .... why, go ahead, its fine by me. I garuantee there will be so many more teachers talking about Jesus, and telling the truth. The bible says let every man be fully convienced in his own mind.
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SUNSTONE
Christian Warrior
Today at 02:02 PM Arikay said this in Post #66
I find the argument "your hurting my rights by not allowing me to step on your freedom." Its a very funny argument.
Freedom is for all. So unless we segregate our schools into religions groups, that argument holds no water, since by supposably exercising your freedom, you are stepping on mine, then I am not trully free, and its not really freedom for all, now is it?
Freedom of speach.
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crazyfingers
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Which does not include the "freedom" to use Government authority to presume to speak for all of us.
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
and done.
My point exactly, especially at younger ages. Teacher says it, kids write it down in their notebooks, it becomes a fact in their minds. So when a teacher says "Jesus is Lord," the kids write it down in their notebooks, and it becomes a fact in their minds. How is this not an endorsement of religion?
and thus they need, and receive, extra legal protection.
Gov't schools should not endorse religion. Only private schools are legally allowed to do this. BIG difference.
The courts have a different definition. and their word is (literally) law. An institution which accepts government money, which means tax money, is a government institution. If that institution promotes a religious belief, then the government is indirectly establishing religion.
Indeed you do digress. The Declaration of Independence is a political, not legal document. It has no enforcable powers whatsoever.
The Constitution, on the other hand, is quite enforcable, and is very clear that religion has no place in government.
The Supreme Court says otherwise. How many religious comments add up to an establishment? The SC says one. Don't like it? Talk to them.
Ignoring the "poor us; we're persecuted" tone, I have to ask:
Were the five pillars of Islam presented as literal truth?
Were students encouraged to follow them?
Did the teacher discuss how much happier his/her life is because he/she follows them?
Was Allah presented as a real person?
Did Allah (through the teacher) have any requests for the students?
If yes, and your kid's in a public school, then you have a Establishment clause case!
now more questions:
Can a Christian teacher, with the power of the Holy Spirit in them, discuss their beliefs with this level of objectivity?
Would they want to?
Is the Supreme Court willing to take that risk with the Constitutional rights of the students?
Ignoring the "poor us; we're persecuted" tone, I have to ask:
Were the five pillars of Islam presented as literal truth?
Were students encouraged to follow them?
Did the teacher discuss how much happier his/her life is because he/she follows them?
Was Allah presented as a real person?
Did Allah (through the teacher) have any requests for the students?
If yes, and your kid's in a public school, then you have a Establishment clause case!
now more questions:
Can a Christian teacher, with the power of the Holy Spirit in them, discuss their beliefs with this level of objectivity?
Would they want to?
Is the Supreme Court willing to take that risk with the Constitutional rights of the students?
Well, by my count, you passed #1, didn't challenge 2 or 3, and failed 4 and 5. but I'll give you an A+ for effort.
What the founding fathers believed in private is one thing. What they proclaimed to the masses is another. What they intended for this country, as expressed in the Constitution, is the only "opinion" which carries any legal weight.
And by now you've heard at least one anti-religious comment from each of the same founding fathers you quoted.
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Nathan Poe
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The law does say that kids have to go to school. And surprising as it may seem, not all parents are rich enough to send their kids to private school, and don't have the time or talent to homeschool.
So poor students really don't have a whole lot of options. Kids in the classroom are a captive audience.
If you go forty minutes without mentioning God, did you stop believing in Him for that time?
First of all, the caps were unnecessary. Being loud doesn't make you right.
Second, you just said the magic words: evolution science. The Supreme Court decided that Creationism is a religious belief, not a scientific theory, and violates the Establishment clause when taught in public school: Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987)
Don't like it? talk to the Supreme Court.
Those people are called "parents." Should the school teach a morality contrary to what parents believe? Do you think non-Christians are unfit parents?
You want to talk to me about teaching?
I happen to be a high school teacher. I also happen to study Norse Mythology as a hobby. I believe in teaching kids about Odin right from the start, because I am convinced with all my heart that there is a God, and that his name is Odin!
If I were to get your child in my classroom, then I promise you that by the end of the school year, he/she'll know more about Odin than about Jesus Christ.
I doubt you'd like that. But you seem to have no problem with inflicting it upon others.
Well, at least we agree about that. The only question is, from whom?
Because it's a lifestyle, not a religion. It may seem trivial, but it's just the kind of hair-splitting distinction the Supreme Court makes.
Don't like it? Talk to the Supreme Court.
Another something we agree on. Student-led prayer activities are legal and Constitutional, under certain conditions. For example, as long as it doesn't disrupt education, harass other students, or compel them to participate, they can do it.
They can even do so on school grounds, as long as teachers do not lead or participate, and as long as the school gives equal time for all religious groups. So if the Christians want to hold a prayer circle in the cafeteria, they can, as long as the school allows the Muslim students the same opportunity, as well as the Hindu students, the Wiccan students.... you get the idea.
The problem is that many teachers are ignorant of the laws, and shut down such activities illegally and uncinstitutionally. But the law is not at fault, ignorance is.
The Wiccan Rede says "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." The Koran says "No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error." (Surah 2:256)
Teach one belief; gotta teach them all.
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panterapat
Praise God in all things!
Do you really think that evangelization is occuring in gov't schools? The ACLU surely has their lawyers fully aware of ANY mention of God's name in public schools.
As far as the quotes go- I could post just as many religious quotes from the Founding Fathers as the anti-religious being posted.
My point is not that religion should be taught in schools. I would like to see morality, but not religion. However, students should be allowed to prfofess their beliefs without court actions and hyper reactions from the ACLU ilk.
My point is that the under-pinning of our freedoms and of our political system and Constitution is Religious in nature. We are a nation founded in God. And dedicated to the proposition that all men ar created equal. Endowed by their creator with the inalienable rights of life liberty and persuit of happiness. Thie IS all "self evident".
Patrick
As far as the quotes go- I could post just as many religious quotes from the Founding Fathers as the anti-religious being posted.
My point is not that religion should be taught in schools. I would like to see morality, but not religion. However, students should be allowed to prfofess their beliefs without court actions and hyper reactions from the ACLU ilk.
My point is that the under-pinning of our freedoms and of our political system and Constitution is Religious in nature. We are a nation founded in God. And dedicated to the proposition that all men ar created equal. Endowed by their creator with the inalienable rights of life liberty and persuit of happiness. Thie IS all "self evident".
Patrick
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crazyfingers
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Yes
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]Thirteen-year-old Ashlee Shields and her father, Sean Shields, filed a federal lawsuit on Monday seeking an end to school-sponsored religious messages, including a planned school-sponsored prayer at the graduation ceremony scheduled for this Saturday at Plainview School in Sheridan Lake, a small town 140 miles east of Denver with a population of about 60 K-12 students. [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"School personnel who use their official position to promote the majority Christian religion make children and their parents who believe otherwise feel unwelcome in their own school and in their own community," said Mark Silverstein, Legal Director of the ACLU of Colorado. [/font]
Source
And they also help Christians when their rights are violated.
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]NORTHAMPTON, MA -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts today asked a federal district court in Springfield to protect the First Amendment rights of high school students who were disciplined by school officials for distributing candy canes with religious messages just before Christmas. [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere," said ACLU cooperating attorney Jeffrey Pyle, the main author of a friend-of-the-court brief submitted in the case. [/font]
Source
Please read this Joint Statement of Current Law on Religion in the Public Schools and tell me where that does not allow anyone to rightfully express their religious beliefs.
It is signed by:
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]Organizational Signers of "Religion in the Public Schools: A Joint Statement of Current Law" [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]American Civil Liberties Union
American Ethical Union
American Humanist Association
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
American Muslim Council
Americans for Religious Liberty
Americans United for Seperation of Church and State
Anti-Defamation League
Baptist Joint Committee
B'nai B'rith
Christian Legal Society
Christian Science Church
Church of Scientology International
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot
Friends Committee on National Legislation
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Guru Gobind Singh Foundation
Interfaith Alliance
Interfaith Impact for Justice and Peace
National Association of Evangelicals
National Council of Churches
National Council of Jewish Women
National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council (NJCRAC)
National Ministries, American Baptist Churches, USA
National Sikh Center
North American Council for Muslim Women
People for the American Way
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society[/font]
Please support this statement with evidence. Please show me where these key items that form the backbone of our political system and constitution are found in religious texts.
- Representative democracy (The bible has Kings)
- Freedom of religion (vs the 1st commandment)
- Separation of powers (It's all in the king)
- Habeus corpus
- Freedom of speech
- Free press
- The right of the people to peaceably assemble
- Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
- Trial by jury
- Bicameral legislation
- Limited executive power
Please prove that. The "founding" document of our nation is the Constitution. Please demonstrate where god is in the constitution.
You do realize that the DI has no force of law and is not part of the constitution?
YOu do realize that the author of that sentence, Thomas Jefferson was a deist and a naturalist?
Please demonstrate that a creator is self-evident.
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Is it just me, or do those who believe that church and state shouldnt be seperate make big claims but never really back them up?
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crazyfingers
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SUNSTONE
Christian Warrior
Yesterday at 05:21 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #71
The law does say that kids have to go to school. And surprising as it may seem, not all parents are rich enough to send their kids to private school, and don't have the time or talent to homeschool.
So poor students really don't have a whole lot of options. Kids in the classroom are a captive audience.
If you go forty minutes without mentioning God, did you stop believing in Him for that time?
First of all, the caps were unnecessary. Being loud doesn't make you right.
Second, you just said the magic words: evolution science. The Supreme Court decided that Creationism is a religious belief, not a scientific theory, and violates the Establishment clause when taught in public school: Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987)
Don't like it? talk to the Supreme Court.
Those people are called "parents." Should the school teach a morality contrary to what parents believe? Do you think non-Christians are unfit parents?
You want to talk to me about teaching?
I happen to be a high school teacher. I also happen to study Norse Mythology as a hobby. I believe in teaching kids about Odin right from the start, because I am convinced with all my heart that there is a God, and that his name is Odin!
If I were to get your child in my classroom, then I promise you that by the end of the school year, he/she'll know more about Odin than about Jesus Christ.
I doubt you'd like that. But you seem to have no problem with inflicting it upon others.
Well, at least we agree about that. The only question is, from whom?
Because it's a lifestyle, not a religion. It may seem trivial, but it's just the kind of hair-splitting distinction the Supreme Court makes.
Don't like it? Talk to the Supreme Court.
Another something we agree on. Student-led prayer activities are legal and Constitutional, under certain conditions. For example, as long as it doesn't disrupt education, harass other students, or compel them to participate, they can do it.
They can even do so on school grounds, as long as teachers do not lead or participate, and as long as the school gives equal time for all religious groups. So if the Christians want to hold a prayer circle in the cafeteria, they can, as long as the school allows the Muslim students the same opportunity, as well as the Hindu students, the Wiccan students.... you get the idea.
The problem is that many teachers are ignorant of the laws, and shut down such activities illegally and uncinstitutionally. But the law is not at fault, ignorance is.
The Wiccan Rede says "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." The Koran says "No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error." (Surah 2:256)
Teach one belief; gotta teach them all.
"Poor" kids are a captive audience to wrong teachings. Its ok to promote a gay "lifestyle", but don't dare teach anything that has to do with God. Not mentioning God for 40 minutes, is different than never mentioning God.
The schools teach that the world and everyone in it, came from evolution. They can't prove it, so it takes faith to believe in evolution. I have listened to debates about evolutionism, and creationism. Both required faith.
"Should a school teach something contrary from what the parents believe?" - Poe
My answer is, it already is with gay lifestyle, and evolution. I think that no matter what you teach, some parents just aren't going to agree with everything, and that it is up to the parents to talk to there kids if they can't do anything about there situation(like homeschooling). I remember that sex ed. required parent signitures when I was in school, I don't know if that still stands. And they didn't teach homosexuality.
I don't think that any parent is perfect, but I do think that mature Christians would make the best parents.
Your a teacher, so am I. I am a teacher at a bible study, tonight in fact.
Now you say that you believe there is a God, and that his name is Odin. You believe this "MYTH"ology with all your heart. Why? Do you have any testimonies? Did you read mine in answered prayers?
You can teach all you want to about Odin, and what ever lifestyle you preferr to let out of the closet.
But do you think that one year of Odin the Myth, will over come a lifetime of teaching Jesus, a man of history? Will this Odin, answer prayers? Change lives? Touch you with the Holy Spirit? Have sacred writings that have been passed down faithfully for thousands and thousands of years?Christians are trying to do something about the Supreme Court, which can be changed.But we are doing more than that, like me talking to you right now.
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crazyfingers
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That is a strawman argument. Some schools are trying to teach that people should be tolerant of people who are different than them because gays face abuse every day for no reason other than the bigotry of others.
What would you have the school mention about a god? Which one would you pick and why?
Do you know what the theory of evolution is?
This is of course absolutely wrong but no matter how many times science is explained to some people they refuse to learn.
That you think that the theory of evolution contradicts your religion is not reason enough to not teach a core theory in biology and one that has at least as much support as the theory of relativity. Like it or not, species do evolve. Your refusal to learn that fact is your problem.
If you thought that the sun went around the earth should the schools not teach that the earth actually goes around the sun?
There you go again with that strawman.
Are you saying that a mature nonchristian would not make as good a parent as a mature christian?
You can teach all you want to about Odin, and what ever lifestyle you preferr to let out of the closet.
Please demonstrate that the god that you believe in is not a myth.
If you mean getting more "justices" like Thomas and Scalia then that would be a sad day for this country.
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Nathan Poe
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I don't see anything about promoting a gay lifestyle, although I do see some work being done to explain that homosexuals are not boogymen who deserve to be locked up as mentally insane or just plain evil.
Evolution requires faith in hundreds of years of the Sceintific Method and careful study. Creationism requires faith in two naked people, a magic garden, and a talking snake.
The Supreme Court made its decision on this one back in 1987.
And they don't "teach" Homosexuality now, at least not as a "how-to" course. Parents can still take their children ***-bashing on weekends.
Would they make the best leaders as well? How about the best citizens?
Enjoy.
Do I have any amusing anecdotes? Nope, none. Do you have any proof that what happened to you wouldn't have happened had you not prayed? Do you know for a fact that God changed His divine plan to accomidate your wishes?
You can teach all you want to about Odin, and what ever lifestyle you preferr to let out of the closet.
I agree. It's near impossible to shake a lifetime of dogmatic indoctrination. No wonder you want it brought into the public schools. Get a mass audience while there too young to think, right?
Yes, yes, and followers of Odin have no need for a Holy Spirit. They do pretty well with what they have.
Unfortunately, most of the sacred writings tended to get burned by Christians in power... as well as the people who wrote them.
And you might want to look into church history... those writings haven't been passed down quite as "faithfully" as you would like to believe. Lots of translations out there...
On the one hand, I appreciate that Supreme Court justices sit for life, and don't need to worry about re-election. I continue to hope that they continue to preserve the Constitution, and not use their power to advance their religious beliefs... or the beliefs of whatever prez nominated them.
I hope for it, but I doubt it.
And you are doing more by talking to me. You're reminding me that the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.
I believe your intentions, and those of people like you, are good, but in your crusade, you would run the American people through a meat-grinder until we all came out the same. You would establish a theocracy with yourselves in charge, claiming new direct revelations from the Almighty on a daily basis. You would burn the Constitution, as you have burned many a dissenting volume before you, shouting Hosannas the whole time.
You have given me a purpose in life: to oppose your crusade with every original free thought I have, and for that, I thank you.
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panterapat
Praise God in all things!
Crazyfingers (now don't get paranoid you're not being ignored),
"Please demonstrate that a creator is self-evident."
Look at the world around you. It came into being through "big bang, evolution, or whatever. According to the big bang, the beginning of matter exploded and expanded and formed more and more complex compounds and eventually life.
But what came before the big bang???????????
What or who created that????????
Look at the computer in front of you. The existance of that computer is self evidence that it had a creator. Someone designed and created this complex machine.
Or perhaps it was material in Hiroshima that was blasted when the atomic bomb was dropped and assembled itself into what you have today.
Impossible! The complexity of the machine and its own existance presuppose its creation by a higher intelligence, just as the complexity and existance of our world presupposes its creation by a higher intelligence.
It is truly Self Evident!
In Christ,
Patrick
"Please demonstrate that a creator is self-evident."
Look at the world around you. It came into being through "big bang, evolution, or whatever. According to the big bang, the beginning of matter exploded and expanded and formed more and more complex compounds and eventually life.
But what came before the big bang???????????
What or who created that????????
Look at the computer in front of you. The existance of that computer is self evidence that it had a creator. Someone designed and created this complex machine.
Or perhaps it was material in Hiroshima that was blasted when the atomic bomb was dropped and assembled itself into what you have today.
Impossible! The complexity of the machine and its own existance presuppose its creation by a higher intelligence, just as the complexity and existance of our world presupposes its creation by a higher intelligence.
It is truly Self Evident!
In Christ,
Patrick
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crazyfingers
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Don't worry. It's Roy I was wondering about.
Have you ever seen the cartoon where the two professors are looking at a blackboard with equations all over it and one says, pointing to one place "And this is where the Miracle happened"?
Sorry. You have made an assumption for which there is no evidence and you are only using the argument from ignorance. You can not believe that it could be natural therefore God.
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