Separated and Guilty

[altruist80]

I know this topic has probably been worn out, but I want to include the scenario in full context.

There has always been dispute about the idea of a loveless marriage. I keep getting the classic answer from the biblical authorities and from the bible itself, but in all honesty, I think that answer is becoming more and more impossible for me to accept.

I have been separated for 2 years. We separated due to irresolvable conflict which classicly resulted in no affection and no sex whatsoever for almost a year. I finally left. After two years of separation, I am getting indications that my ex may want us to try again.

Here is my stance. I feel no romantic feelings for her whatsoever. The conflict will likely continue. She has another man's child now. Her appearance has dramatically changed for the worse, and all guilt set aside and how terrible a person I might be for thinking that, how can I help what I am attracted to? How can one be repulsed by his partner and be expected to live this way for the rest of his natural life? Let me also add that physical appearance is not the most important thing, but with nothing else to override it, it seems to play a much bigger part.

The bible says I have grounds for divorce, but we both have been unfaithful in our separation by mutual agreement. It's wrong, I know, so please don't let that consume the thread.

The point is, I feel that reconciliation would be a pointless sacrifice that I am fully unable to make. Please don't say that God can change that about me because I waited for years for that to happen while we were still together. The result is absolute misery, no sex (mutually), no romantic love, nothing but a half-stable coexistance of space, and yet chained by an oath. There is nothing left to salvage, and the very thought sends chills up my spine.

I have no doubt that I am at fault and not God, but what does one do after making such mistakes? I feel like I'm under a curse. Dating has not gone well at all because I can't find a good Christian woman who shares my passion for God. I have been unable to get divorced for extreme financial difficulties. Basically, I'm in the biggest pickle I've ever been in. I feel like I'm under seige. Does anyone have any advice that is possible and practical?

 

[beautyforashes81]

Correct me if I'm wrong...you're still married, but separated? (b/c u called her your "ex"...just confused me a little)

Hm...do you guys live near each other?
How do you know that things haven't changed if you're not together?
During these 2 years of separation, what has changed about you?

I'm going through something similar...I'm separated, have been separated for 5 mos now. And although I do have the $ to hire an attorney and file and I have the grounds to do so (husband cheated) I made a decision that I'm going to FIGHT for my marriage. Believe me, I have all the reasons in the world to validate a divorce but choose not to do so. Since my husband is the one who wants it so bad then he can file (already told him that). But this is just me.

Do you pray about the circumstances in your marriage?
Maybe the reason why you're not having any luck dating or finding other Christian women maybe can be an indication to work on your marriage? (in my humble opinion). Also, it's like how can it be possible to still be married AND find a Christian mate? (I hope you get what I'm trying to say...)
Have you prayed about asking Go to put that desire for her back in your heart?

Well, it's ultimately your choice on whether you want to work it out or not. No one can make you.

 

[tanelornpete]

I'm new to this forum but not new to this particular problem! I've been divorced twice due to very bad decisions on my part, as well as the sin of my ex-spouses in seeking to destroy our marriage. My marriage now is stable (God willing), and this stability I attribute 100% to the fact that I finally learned my hard lessons and turned to Scripture for the guidance I needed to be the man and husband I am to be. Thank God for my lovely wife.

I am not the brightest bulb on the planet, so I tend to search things out carefully and make sure I completely understand the situation - in that spirit, I submit below what I am hearing Altruist80 saying - a rewrite of his letter to check my understanding, if you will:

[FONT=&quot]This is an age-old topic that has been debated thoroughly, but my situation is different than everyone else’s and is therefore a special case.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There have always been those who debate the idea of a loveless marriage and one side still points out that God wants us to honor our covenants. Well I don’t want to. I do not like God’s answer to the problem.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have been separated for 2 years due to conflict that we both were unwilling to resolve, which resulted in no affection and no sex for a year. I left my wife. After two years of separation, I am getting indications that my wife may want us to work on our marriage.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is my decision on how to approach this: I feel no romantic feelings for her. The conflict that divided us will likely continue, because I do not wish to overcome it, and I do not know if my wife wants to. She has another man’s child now. She looks different than she did two years ago. I do not find her current physical appearance attractive. How can someone who is repulsed by the appearance of their spouse be expected to live with them for the rest of their life? I would like to point out that while physical appearance is not the most important thing, however, there is nothing spiritual, mental, or personal about my wife that I find attractive. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Bible says that I had grounds for divorce as long as she remained unfaithful and did not want to reconcile. She also has grounds for divorce because I have been unfaithful and do not want to reconcile, but she hasn’t taken that option. I know that I’m wrong, but I want people to tell me I’m right.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Reconciliation with my wife would involve a sacrifice that I don’t want to make. Please don’t tell me that God can change that about me because rather than looking to God and becoming the man and husband He intends for me to be, I waited years while we were still together for something miraculous to overcome my decision to hate my wife and yet God did not come through . The result was the worst misery that anyone who has ever existed has experienced. No sex, no romantic love, nothing but a half-stable coexistence of space, chained by our oath. When I think about living in a marriage that cannot be fixed, I am filled with fear.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I know that this is my fault and God is not to blame, but I am a helpless victim of my decisions and don’t want to have to do the work to repair the damage I have caused and I don’t want to trust in God to do His work in His time in my wife’s life. It feels like I am under a curse. I can’t find a good Christian woman who will date a married man. I have found no woman capable of the fervor I feel for god. This is the worst thing I’ve ever gotten myself into, and I feel like I’m being held captive. Does anyone have any advice that will allow me to go my own way and still please God?[/FONT]
​

If that's a pretty good estimation of your post, then maybe there is a way out of your 'pickle' that will please BOTH God and you!

David

 

[Brotherfromanothermother]

Cut your losses. End it.

 

[altruist80]

tanelornpete,

Let me re-clarify what you said in response to what I said.

[FONT=&quot]This is an age-old topic that has been debated thoroughly, but my situation is different than everyone else’s and is therefore a special case.[/FONT]​

No, it's not a special case any more than anyone else's special case of an unresolvable marriage. ​

[FONT=&quot]There have always been those who debate the idea of a loveless marriage and one side still points out that God wants us to honor our covenants. Well I don’t want to. I do not like God’s answer to the problem.[/FONT]​

Reaffirmation: How many of you can fully deny yourself, give away all that you have, take up your cross, and follow Jesus? How would you react if God told you you must reconcile with the worst of your wives or spend the rest of your days in celebacy? I am acutely aware of the commandment. I am asking for clarity, not the same vague answer of "just do it."​

[FONT=&quot]We have been separated for 2 years due to conflict that we both were unwilling to resolve, which resulted in no affection and no sex for a year. I left my wife. After two years of separation, I am getting indications that my wife may want us to work on our marriage.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Here is my decision on how to approach this: I feel no romantic feelings for her. The conflict that divided us will likely continue, because I do not wish to overcome it, and I do not know if my wife wants to. She has another man’s child now. She looks different than she did two years ago. I do not find her current physical appearance attractive. How can someone who is repulsed by the appearance of their spouse be expected to live with them for the rest of their life? I would like to point out that while physical appearance is not the most important thing, however, there is nothing spiritual, mental, or personal about my wife that I find attractive. [/FONT]​

As to the command not to divorce, and interpreting scripture with other scripture, according to Corinthians, I am not only required to reconsile, but to engage in sex as well. Anyone else see the difficulty?​

[FONT=&quot]The Bible says that I had grounds for divorce as long as she remained unfaithful and did not want to reconcile. She also has grounds for divorce because I have been unfaithful and do not want to reconcile, but she hasn’t taken that option. I know that I’m wrong, but I want people to tell me I’m right.[/FONT]​

I am not familiar with the provision that I am still bound if she stops being unfaithful. Please clarify, because I am heartily under the impression that a singular act is grounds for divorce.​

[FONT=&quot]Reconciliation with my wife would involve a sacrifice that I don’t want to make. Please don’t tell me that God can change that about me because rather than looking to God and becoming the man and husband He intends for me to be, I waited years while we were still together for something miraculous to overcome my decision to hate my wife and yet God did not come through . The result was the worst misery that anyone who has ever existed has experienced. No sex, no romantic love, nothing but a half-stable coexistence of space, chained by our oath. When I think about living in a marriage that cannot be fixed, I am filled with fear.[/FONT]​

I don't hate my wife. She is a good person. Otherwise, the statement is correct, errr... execpt for "The result was the worst misery that anyone who has ever existed has experienced.." Where that came from is beyond me. How many losing battles have you fought? What if you were required to fight them all over again?​

[FONT=&quot]I know that this is my fault and God is not to blame, but I am a helpless victim of my decisions and don’t want to have to do the work to repair the damage I have caused and I don’t want to trust in God to do His work in His time in my wife’s life. [/FONT]​

I should burn, no question. I should be made to fix all the damage I've done, or otherwise pay for it. Grace or accountability? Which law am I under? ​

[FONT=&quot]It feels like I am under a curse. I can’t find a good Christian woman who will date a married man. [/FONT]​

I could accept the idea of waiting for the financial burden to lift so I can change this. Or, if it doesn't lift, what shall I do? The burden of waiting has become unbearable.​

[FONT=&quot]I have found no woman capable of the fervor I feel for god. [/FONT]​

Found is the key word here. I am not stating that to be self-righteous. I am stating that people have choices and many do not choose God.​

[FONT=&quot]This is the worst thing I’ve ever gotten myself into, and I feel like I’m being held captive. Does anyone have any advice that will allow me to go my own way and still please God?[/FONT]​

Ok,​

9 ...it is better to marry than to burn with passion. - 1 Cor. 7:9​

Paul evidently understood the difficult situation presented to young people who are sexually healthy. Of course, in context, he simply said [get married, problem solved.] Is it that easy in this era?​

5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. - 1 Cor.7:5​

He also understood that people have desires and God provides a means to fullfill them. Husband and wife are commanded to be intimate. If they aren't, tempation arises.​

According to what you are saying, in summary, I am a man with these desires with no means left of satisfying them. I am to go live with my wife or forever be single. I spent my one chance and it is gone forever. Here are my choices:​

Single:​

- Collapse under sexual and emotional strain.​

or​

Married:​

- Collapse under sexual and emotional strain.​

I understand God not only as the author of moral ideals, but also one who is reasonable in implementing rules that serve to better our lives. What happens when these two concepts clash?​

Are we called to peace? The simple answer is not so simple. Once again, someone please clarify.​

 

[tanelornpete]

[FONT=&quot]I am very glad you came back to clarify! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No, it's not a special case any more than anyone else's special case of an unresolvable marriage. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I don’t think there is such thing as an un-resolvable marriage. A marriage is a contract between a man and a woman to commit to one another permanently, no matter the circumstances – until death parts them. The issues of a contract are resolved when both parties agree to it.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]What can be un-resolvable are problems that arise between both parties [/FONT][FONT=&quot]could CHOOSE to resolve the conflict—but instead choose to remain in conflict rather than take the steps necessary to fix things. This is where you find yourself, right?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Reaffirmation: How many of you can fully deny yourself, give away all that you have, take up your cross, and follow Jesus? How would you react if God told you you must reconcile with the worst of your wives or spend the rest of your days in celebacy? I am acutely aware of the commandment. I am asking for clarity, not the same vague answer of "just do it."[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I offer no ‘just do it’ – I’ve been told things like that in the past and it’s foolish. What happens here I hope results from a reasoned and careful consideration of all angles that ends in a God-honoring decision you make on your own.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]We are all sinful beings and none of us is perfect (any one who claims to be needs to read 1 John 1: 8-10) We do what we think is best for us at the moment and quite often that tends to be in contradiction to what God wants us to do. Often the things He asks us to do seem painful, boring, counter-intuitive, or counter-productive – and sometimes just not fun! If you think about it, God does not call us to a life of “happiness” (especially as defined by the world). The apostles found themselves suffering because they obeyed God, God does call us to a life of peace. In layman’s terms, sometimes it may be painful to learn the lesson we need to learn, but God loves us and wants us to learn to be more like Him.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]In answer to your question ‘how would you react if God told you that you must reconcile with the worst of your wives or spend the rest of your days in celibacy?’ I’d have to answer that first, I only have one wife; I attempted reconciliation with the other two ex wives – who both were living with other men at the time, and I didn’t look forward to a life of celibacy. A of celibacy is not the worst thing that can happen! This life is very short we have an eternal future, incomparably better than this life. People get caught in pleasing themselves so much that they forget we, as Christians, have an eternity of awesome wonder awaiting us. In that eternity, the fact that your toe once hurt when you stubbed it will seem inconsequential. Celibacy in a single life has its difficulties and temptations, but you’re wholly dedicated to serving God—celibacy in a married life is very painful and extremely frustrating, but once again we are promised peace when we obey—not “happiness.”

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]One final note here – celibacy is a ‘gift’ from God – those of us who do not have that gift don’t really understand it. It is extremely rare. There’s a difference between being celibate and refraining from sex by choice because you are not married.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As to the command not to divorce, and interpreting scripture with other scripture, according to Corinthians, I am not only required to reconcile, but to engage in sex as well. Anyone else see the difficulty?[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]You are also required to love your wife – as Christ loved the church – dying for her even when she hated him and was as unlovely as anything could ever be. I would suggest separating the idea of sex and marriage. Marriage is the covenant between you and your wife. Sex is one of the benefits of that covenant. Suppose you were happily married to a woman that you ‘felt’ love for (that will come up later, God willing this conversation continues) – and due to some accident she becomes unable to have sex. Does that then mean the marriage is over? There are other aspects to that relationship. If all you married your wife for was sex, then you set yourself up for bad times in the first place because it is not the end-all and be-all of marriage.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not familiar with the provision that I am still bound if she stops being unfaithful. Please clarify, because I am heartily under the impression that a singular act is grounds for divorce.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]I don’t want to get too deeply into debating the meaning of Christ’s refutation of the Pharisees – in essence the command was that a man was free to divorce a sexually unfaithful wife. The things to consider: is your wife repentant? Has she truly turned from her sin? If so, we are at least commanded to forgive. Consider the example of Hosea in the Old Testament and Jesus as the example of a Husband to His wife, the CHURCH. In both examples, the wife was a prostitute, selling her love to someone else and sexually impure. BOTH had the ‘grounds for divorce’ then, but in both examples, when the wife truly repents and seeks her Husband, despite the fact He has grounds, He forgives her and welcomes her back. My argument is simple: divorce does not solve any problem. It just changes the parameters. The problem remains.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]You can use the letter of the law to divorce your wife – but consider Paul’s argument: “…a husband must not divorce his wife. (1 Cor. 7:11) ” The problem I have with this kind of approach is the fact that it emphasizes LAW over GRACE, and I don’t like that approach. What I am hoping for is a reasoned, God-honoring decision that YOU make. All I ask is that you consider all aspects first!

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don't hate my wife. She is a good person. Otherwise, the statement is correct. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]If you don’t hate your wife, and she is a good person, why are you committing adultery and seeking divorce? Why would you back out on a contract you made with a good woman you love? Just to let you in on a little secret: every marriage has problems – usually the same problems – you don’t get away from them by changing partners! In fact, unless you face your own problems and deal with them, when you go to your next partner you’ll have the same problems! Changing partners doesn’t change YOU.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Point to consider here: you agree with my understanding of your statement. In this instance then, you are admitting that the problems you have are irreconcilable because you do not want to fix them. In other words, you are the impediment to healing the rift in your life-long agreement with your wife. And it seems that you wish to use your resolute insistence on refusing to work on problems as justification for divorce.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Modern Christians have almost completely abandoned the real definition of love and substituted a version that originated near the early 1800’s. True Christian love is ALL action. It is a choice you make, not a sensation that sweeps over your helpless self. Christ loved the Church by ACTING on her behalf. He CHOSE to act the way He did for her at a time when she did not deserve it and she was being unfaithful! God showed His love by dying in our place (John 3:16) Husbands are required to ACT on their wives behalf. I think one of the reason’s Paul wrote that the way he did was because he understood that men tend to become so self obsessed that they neglect their wives – he tells us to act how Jesus did toward us. Easy? No way! Toughest thing there is! That’s what being a man is all about, isn’t it?[/FONT]

 

[tanelornpete]

[FONT=&quot]How many losing battles have you fought? What if you were required to fight them all over again?

[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I wouldn’t choose to fight them in the first place. The key is in the term fight. It is not wrong to argue, it is wrong to fight. In any circumstance where conflict arises, there is an underlying issue that has to be found and fixed. The fighting occurs because the parties involved would rather strong-arm their own way rather that find a different way that pleased both partners. My wife and I have an agreement between us that if any conflict arises, we stop all we are doing and find what the underlying issue is – and fix it, before we go about any other business. This means we don’t eat, sleep, go to work, anything, till we fix the problem. Because we keep our accounts short, it usually doesn’t take long to resolve the issue. When you are facing years of self-inflicted damage (on the part of both parties) the process is longer. But is it possible. ‘Nuff of my soapbox…

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]If I were presented with the same circumstances now, I would make different choices, especially if I had the opportunity to face the same challenges again. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I want to point something out – I was responsible for how my marriages started and ended. I should NOT have married unbelievers. But in my marriages, I was stubborn, selfish, and unreasonable. Instead addressing a conflict, getting to the root problem, talking it over with her, and finding a compromise solution, I would often just walk away, or demand my way, or just be mean. I did not make a kind of environment where a marriage could thrive. Our job as husband is to make an environment that is safe for our wives to be themselves. Note: I am not excusing our wives – they have similar responsibilities – for example, they are commanded to respect their husbands. But this is a man-to-man post and I’m here posting to you, not posting to her.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I should burn, no question. I should be made to fix all the damage I've done, or otherwise pay for it. Grace or accountability? Which law am I under? [/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]Grace and accountability are not negating of each other – they have different functions. Grace is not a law – nor is it a cancellation of law. It is God treating undeserving people with love. Accountability is also not a law – it’s the result of being rational – we have an answer to give to the judge for everything we have done. The term responsibility means one thing only: response – ability. You are able to respond to question. Should you burn? We all should! Thank God, we have Christ, who ‘burned’ in our place. Any time I realize that I should burn for something, and then I realize that Jesus burned for me caused me to praise Him even more.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]However, being a man requires that you act responsibly – that is, to do the right thing. In this case, what I suggest you do – even if you do end up divorcing your wife – is to do what you can to fix the damage you did. Ask forgiveness for the hurt you caused – and the unfaithfulness you inflicted on her. Yes, she did it to, but that never gives us the right to respond with evil!
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I could accept the idea of waiting for the financial burden to lift so I can change this. Or, if it doesn't lift, what shall I do? The burden of waiting has become unbearable.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]I hear a lot of hurt in your words. I am very sorry this has happened to you – my prayers are with you, my brother. I know that God has a separate plan for every one of us, and the pain He puts us through ends up making us better in the end – you don’t find beautiful diamonds in the soil – you find strangely shaped chunks of rock that have to have pieces broken off. The end result is that beautiful stone. Keep reading your Bible and praying – God is there for you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not stating that to be self-righteous. I am stating that people have choices and many do not choose God.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]I would like to respectfully point out two things:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No Christian woman worth marrying would date a married man.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sex outside of marriage is also wrong.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]If you are serious about pleasing God, the place you start is with yourself. This is not a good time for you to be with a woman – your wife, or a new one if you divorce. You are carrying a bomb strapped to your chest that will go off in the face of whatever woman you are with. Past issues do not simply disappear – they go dormant till the best opportunity to spring out again. My suggestion is to deal with the issues first – then set yourself up with a companion.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9 ...it is better to marry than to burn with passion. - 1 Cor. 7:9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul evidently understood the difficult situation presented to young people who are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] sexually healthy. Of course, in context, he simply said [get married, problem solved.] Is it that easy in this era?[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]Paul was talking about a COUPLE here – not a hormonally charged male. His suggestion: don’t wait - get married. He [/FONT][FONT=&quot]understood that there are some people who are sexually healthy and desire sex—and others for whom sex is a portion of life but not quite so bit a deal—so for those who DO have desire, he said it’s better to be married and express that area than to be single and burn with desire… when you’re single you can dedicate yourself to serving God, and when you are married, you voluntarily take on other responsibilities.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Is it that easy, in this era? Yes, it is. The difficulty is the same now as it was then – the relationship you have with that person after the honeymoon is over. When all the baggage from the past starts jumping out, irritating patterns start to develop and resentments start to cloud judgment. The difficulty has to be overcome by hard work.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. - 1 Cor.7:5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He also understood that people have desires and God provides a means to fulfill them. Husband and wife are commanded to be intimate. If they aren't, temptation arises.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]Very true! You can speak for that from first-hand experience, eh?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]According to what you are saying, in summary, I am a man with these desires with no means left of satisfying them. I am to go live with my wife or forever be single. I spent my one chance and it is gone forever. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]All I can say is that your view of the situation limits you at this time. It’s as if you were standing at a counter looking at various shirts and limiting yourself to only two choices and then complaining about the two choices you picked. There’s no one to blame for your discomfort but you. You have stated that the only two options you have for the rest of your life are: 1) stay married to this wife and be sexually miserable, or 2) be single with no sexual outlet and be miserable. Maybe there are other possibilities. Keep your options open – or, reopen your mind – might surprise you.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]It seems that you consider marriage a ‘chance’ rather than a decision. When you take that oath, you are declaring, in public, that you give your word. Regardless of how weak most men are today, a Christian man should (how I hate that word!) try to make his word good. If people can trust you at your word, you will go a lot farther in life.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I understand God not only as the author of moral ideals, but also one who is reasonable in implementing rules that serve to better our lives. What happens when these two concepts clash?[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]If you believe that God knows what is best for us, and loves us, then you should be able to detect the problem you are facing here.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If what you want and what God wants conflict, then one of you is wrong. The solution is that one of you must change his mind.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are we called to peace? The simple answer is not so simple. Once again, someone please clarify[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]Could you go into what you mean here? I don’t understand…

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]My final comments here (sorry for the long post) – people have the idea that marriage is designed to fill our sexual appetites and that sex is the driving force behind all else (thank the behaviorists for that anti-Christian philosophy.) We tend to think that we can get married to have sex, and when that gets boring, we can jump ship and find another partner to use till the excitement wears off, and so on and on. That’s a cultural thing, it’s a modern philosophy, and it is wrong. Marriage is a display to the world of the relationship between Christ and His bride. It is a display of the truthful and dependable word of people who take vows. Your word is an indication of how trustworthy you are. Christian should take a firm stand and say to the world “the lies and deception stop here. We made a vow, and like it or not, we determine to stick to it.”

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Not that that is likely to occur – just something to ponder.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]David

[/FONT]

 

[altruist80]

Your response has been helpful and well-measured. Thank you for your prayers and your insight.

I would suggest separating the idea of sex and marriage. Marriage is the covenant between you and your wife. Sex is one of the benefits of that covenant. Suppose you were happily married to a woman that you ‘felt’ love for (that will come up later, God willing this conversation continues) – and due to some accident she becomes unable to have sex. Does that then mean the marriage is over? There are other aspects to that relationship.

Looks like a gray area to me. Looks to me like some things can become impossible. So... is this verse in a command context or a suggestive context? And seriously not trying to twist your words, but you seem to be focused on sex as being more of a suggestion rather a command, yet Paul is stating this in an imperative form. There is my personal clarification on this which I will get into later.

I attempted reconciliation with the other two ex wives – who both were living with other men at the time, and I didn’t look forward to a life of celibacy.

I attempted reconciliation as well. This was after she left me while I was in the navy and moved in with another man.
The man abused her, and afterwards when I provoked her to anger, she hit me on two separate occaisions. I don't think it was abuse, because it didn't break me or anything, and I defended myself the second time. I don't think she would do this again, which is the reason I didn't mention it, but it was one of the key things that drove tensions out of control the final time.

I didn't leave the first time. I was her first and she was mine. She broke that while I was away. I gave her reasons certainly, so I don't fully blame her for that. I was not attentive to many of her needs, and was quite an anchor in her life. When we tried to reconsile, I made sure that she felt the emotional pain I was under when dealing with this. It was terrible of me to do that because there is nothing she could have done about it then. I should have let it go. Instead, I pressed into it over and over, unable to control myself, making her feel as guilty as I was disgusted. It hurt. When we finally hashed all this out and regained some stability, we started fighting over ridiculus things. That's when the violent confrontations began. I provoked her, and she hit me. It wasn't the hit. It was the pure unadulterated contempt in her eyes. I left 3 days after it happened the second time. I knew we were broken. I ammended this paragraph after I wrote my post. I just wanted to clarify our equal share in this, because I focused on her wrongdoing so much. We both had our part.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I am about to say may confuse some people. I was confused and almost into full-blown spiritual meltdown when I first heard it. I actually tried to write this out earlier and it failed to post earlier because I included a link without having rights to post links yet. I thought it may been God telling me to reserve this for my own understanding considering the potential misunderstanding it might convey. I still don't even know if I should go into the theological breakdown, but I did pray about it and ask God to guide me here. As Paul would say, it is I that speaks and not God on this matter.

There are many gray areas in which the bible is silent. Abuse, neglect, abandonment... Following a literal concrete translation here denies reason. There are many people who believe in God who's actions suggest otherwise. There is an article I found that stated that divorce for "any cause" was epidemic in Jesus's time, and his reply on the subject should be taken with that in consideration... I don't know how true that is.

Paul then goes on to say, that someone given a very raw hand with no choice but to divorce, must bear the yoke of their ex's sin by remaining celebate. Is it possible that Paul was as confused on the matter as we are today? If Jesus's command was taken out of context, it would stand to reason that Paul's interpretation might have been skewed. David Instone-Brewer's article touches on this. Google Christianity Today and the guy's name to find. I can't post links or I would.

To clarify, I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. I don't blindly trust the council of Laodecia, but I do trust God to deliever His word in such a way that we have something concrete to go by. I think context is very important though, and here is an example:

Most churches kind of skip arond the fact that Paul commanded women to be silent in the churches. In context, women were being disruptive in those days, so Paul's intention was more of a call to order rather than a literal command that a woman should not speak at all in the church.

We can also compare Paul's "I will not suffer a woman to preach", with the unbelievably successful fruit-bearing ministry of Joyce Meyer. Some of these things lead me to believe that some of Paul's writings may have been more suggestion-oriented than command-oriented. This was very common among Jews, and we also have translation issues to overcome as well.

Paul states quite a few times that he is not speaking for God on a given subject. If the church were to follow Paul's writings in the most literal sense (which they don't), there would be radical reformation and a major falling away of the female population. I'm not saying Paul is wrong. The era demanded some things to be the way they were. It is very possible that a woman who preached in that day would have been stoned or worse.

Just like the "harsh" judgements in the old testament, so may of these things come to light, in context, with consideration for the era, bearing the reason and infallible truth of God.

The question is, in the words of Pilate, "What is truth?"

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. - Pro. 25:2

 

[tanelornpete]

Your response has been helpful and well-measured. Thank you for your prayers and your insight.

[FONT=&quot]Looks like a gray area to me. Looks to me like some things can become impossible. So... is this verse in a command context or a suggestive context? And seriously not trying to twist your words, but you seem to be focused on sex as being more of a suggestion rather a command, yet Paul is stating this in an imperative form.[/FONT]


Thanks for asking for clarification! In response: marriage is a contract between man and woman that God considers binding. Sex is to be contained within the marriage covenant. Actually, the bible doesn’t specifically command sex – although it does tell us to produce children. The imperative in the verse shows that neither spouse can deny sex to the other, unless both agree to the fact. I think the principle involves the idea that you do not belong to yourself when you enter the marriage contract – you belong to your spouse.


[FONT=&quot]I attempted reconciliation as well. This was after she left me while I was in the navy and moved in with another man. The man abused her, and afterwards when I provoked her to anger, she hit me on two separate occasions. I don't think it was abuse, because it didn't break me or anything, and I defended myself the second time. I don't think she would do this again, which is the reason I didn't mention it, but it was one of the key things that drove tensions out of control the final time.[/FONT]


In response to how the other man treated her when she left you, I can only say she chose that path and the problems that went with it. However the violence your wife inflicted on you causes some intense anger issues in you – part of that baggage-bomb that I referred to earlier. That is an unresolved problem between the two of you. You cannot save your marriage without addressing and resolving that anger. But more importantly, you would be wise not to remarry until you find a way to deal with it. It will just come back. Regardless of your decision about your marriage, this is something that you should face.


[FONT=&quot]I didn't leave the first time. I was her first and she was mine. She broke that while I was away. I gave her reasons certainly, so I don't fully blame her for that. I was not attentive to many of her needs, and was quite an anchor in her life. When we tried to reconcile, I made sure that she felt the emotional pain I was under when dealing with this. It was terrible of me to do that because there is nothing she could have done about it then. I should have let it go. Instead, I pressed into it over and over, unable to control myself, making her feel as guilty as I was disgusted. It hurt. When we finally hashed all this out and regained some stability, we started fighting over ridiculous things. That's when the violent confrontations began. I provoked her, and she hit me. It wasn't the hit. It was the pure unadulterated contempt in her eyes. I left 3 days after it happened the second time. I knew we were broken. I amended this paragraph after I wrote my post. I just wanted to clarify our equal share in this, because I focused on her wrongdoing so much. We both had our part[/FONT].


Thank you for acknowledging your part in the troubles – as men, we need to own our own and work at bettering ourselves. I’d like to re-iterate that the issue was never resolved. The resentment and anger is still there, and will remain with you until you are willing to turn away from it. I do want to point something out. When you found out about your wife’s infidelity and learned of her violent tendency, you had a right to be angry. Moreover, she would have needed to earn back your trust and you had a right to be wary of her motives and moves until she proved herself to you. We all tend to respond to things inappropriately when we are hurt – not to excuse it – you still need to ask for her forgiveness for wronging her - but it is understandable.


My point is that the anger has never abated – it’s just stashed itself away. Most likely it is controlling you more than you think – one reason you find your wife repulsive (I’d argue the only reason). Don’t let it become a god to you – that’s not one you want to worship!


David

 

[tanelornpete]

[FONT=&quot]There are many gray areas in which the bible is silent. Abuse, neglect, abandonment... Following a literal concrete translation here denies reason. There are many people who believe in God whose actions suggest otherwise. There is an article I found that stated that divorce for "any cause" was epidemic in Jesus' time, and his reply on the subject should be taken with that in consideration... I don't know how true that is.[/FONT]
​

Could I point out that even if the issue was epidemic in Jesus’ time doesn’t make it irrelevant in our time? On top of that, divorce is epidemic now, too. Since that holds true, whatever consideration we give it might be: hey, guess what! Things haven’t changed a bit!

You are right; people who say they believe in God do not act in ways that point this out. This seems to me to prove the Scriptural passage: “Many will say they did things in my name – but I never knew them!” (David’s translation) It’s easy to use the name of a deity to justify things. Faith without works is dead.

However, I am not sure what you are questioning with the rest of your paragraph. I don’t find these things to be gray areas, but that is because I have a rather tight view of Scripture – what is not clear in one are becomes clear in examining other areas.

[FONT=&quot]Paul then goes on to say, that someone given a very raw hand with no choice but to divorce, must bear the yoke of their ex's sin by remaining celebate. Is it possible that Paul was as confused on the matter as we are today? If Jesus's command was taken out of context, it would stand to reason that Paul's interpretation might have been skewed. David Instone-Brewer's article touches on this. Google Christianity Today and the guy's name to find. I can't post links or I would.[/FONT]
​

I am kind of familiar with Instone-Brewer’s work – and I’d love to suggest another author to flesh out the issue. I don’t agree with him on everything, but it seems in regarding marriage and fidelity he does a good job: Douglas Wilson’s “Fidelity” and “Reforming Marriage”. In any event the issue that Instone-Brewer writes on would not come about had not modern theologians come up with the “New Perspective” theology that classifies Paul’s work culturally limited and therefore less applicable to us. I deny this with all my being. If their theology holds true it means that our ability to read scripture must be dictated by specialist who ‘really understand’ the Bible. We head right back into the Dark Ages. In some ways, though Instone-Brewer’s book is helpful.

I hold that Scripture is God’s Word, inerrant and true. Because of my understanding of the word ‘truth’, this means that all statements, or any conclusions built on those statements are also true.

Divorce is not a legal issue with sexual consequences. In most cases it is a sexual issue with legal and covenantal consequences. (Also, see Mal. 2:16). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus pointed out that marriage is not absolute – it’s not a metaphysical bond – it’s a covenantal bond. According to Christ a man can only divorce his wife for uncleanness (not going to go into that any farther here.) If he does so for any other reason he causes both himself and his now ex-wife to commit adultery. In your instance this is a fairly clear issue.

Paul expounds on it for what I see to be a different reason. He isn’t changing what Jesus said –the Bible is God’s word, and that is always consistent, regardless of the author of each book. He points out the issue of forgiveness: it is a choice to make a marriage work, not a stroke of luck. Marriages don’t work because people chanced to marry ‘the right person.’ They work because the partners within the marriage choose to honor God with their decisions, and God blesses that.

In this case, if a wandering spouse sees the error of their ways and wishes to come back, Paul encourages the betrayed partner to act as Christ did and forgive the offender – no matter how unlovely they may seem at the time. Again that is because Christian love is a behavior – not an emotion.

[FONT=&quot]To clarify, I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. I don't blindly trust the council of Laodecia, but I do trust God to deliever His word in such a way that we have something concrete to go by.[/FONT]
​

“…All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work…”

How much of Scripture? “All of it.” For which good works? “Every one of them.” Scripture is the only place we can turn to learn how to be ‘good’ – which should be our response of gratitude for the immense work of Jesus on our behalf.

Women silent in churches, meat for idols, haircuts, etc: I don’t think it’s context at issue there – I believe it is principle, such as order in church services, men differentiating from women (and the reverse) etc. Paul addresses the cultures of his day, but the propositional principles are universal – addressed in very short form under your question:

[FONT=&quot]The question is, in the words of Pilate, "What is truth?"[/FONT]
​

Truth is a function of logic. It is a function of propositions: you can say the word ‘dog’ but it is neither true nor false. You have to make an argument ABOUT the dog, and the conclusion is either true or false: ‘Spot is a canine, all dogs are canines: therefore Spot is a dog.’ The conclusion is true.
The Bible is God’s word; God speaks the truth, therefore, conclusions based upon VALID propositions found in Scripture are also true.

The problem is, what do we do with that truth?

This brings it back to the issue: divorce. Paul writes that if an unbelieving spouse leaves, the betrayed spouse is free to divorce – with no consequences. That is because there should not have been a marriage in the first place. He holds that it is wisest to get out of it. But he does not command this! His preference is that if the unbeliever wishes to come back the believer is free to take them back. An unbeliever is blessed in a Christian marriage. Not only that, but the believer may be instrumental in their salvation.

The situation is similar with two believing spouses: if the wandering spouse leaves, the betrayed spouse is certainly free to divorce: if there is uncleanness. However, there is a principle that is involved here: what happens if the wandering spouse wants to come back? How many times are we to forgive one another? There is that issue to consider. Another to consider, the one I think is much more important, is the fact that there are personal issues that have to be dealt with before you get into any relationship with anyone else. If you do decide to divorce your wife, consider the work you do on personal issues protection for your future mate. If you decided to forgive your wife, consider it an investment in a very profitable future.

Here’s an assumption I am working under: you are in your 20s, sexually near your peak, and alone. You want to have sex, but also wish to please God. If I know men right (and I am one), if moral restraints are removed, just about any woman would be fine for a sexual partner – if only on a temporary basis. Since you admit your wife is a good person and you don’t hate her, it is hard to find a reason why you don’t want to have sex with your wife (if she were willing). There can only be one answer: there is an unresolved issue that lies between you two that causes you to make this decision. My advice, as an old man, is to resolve the issue first, and then find out where your mind rests resolving your marriage after that. The work on yourself pays off to your benefit in the end.

David

 

[altruist80]

I think I see somewhat where you are going with this. It seems that in my situation, to be ideal, I should adhere to the higher principle. That's the thing though. People are not always ideal, and according to the doctrine of total depravity (which I do adhere to, albeit I'm not a Catholic), we are fully incapable of being ideal. I used to hammer it out with the aetheists in some other forums, and it taught me a lot. It actually strengthened my faith by searching the meaning of the matters they propose.

The one thing I learned is that before one can follow a higher calling, they must understand it. They must recognize the concept of "perfect" and "ideal", or their views will be fully reprobate and deny all reason. There is no doubt in my mind that reconciliation adheres to a higher principle than retreat, in my case, and in most other cases.

You have stuck to your guns for better or worse, and there is virtue in this. I, in contrast, feel discretion is the better part of valour, and mostly, reason superceeds blind obediance unless one knows for certain that GOD COMMANDS them to do something. I couldn't love God as deeply as I do had I not searched him out and found his word pleasing to my spirit (still, all credit to God for his grace in choosing me as one who could find Him). I think both mentalities have their strong points.

I don't neccesarily agree with everything you have said on a personal level, but we aren't all expected to, of which Paul's scripture you are familiar with concerning detailed beliefs.

There may have been some pain and hurt, but mostly now, it's only neutrality. The very fact that I can look back to my own failures without magnifying hers can attest to this. Hurt is very personal when people are deeply involved, but tends to diminish with emotional distance. That is the main reason I can't suffer an illogical reunion. There is no emotional charge to justify it. It's all said and done, and nothing remains but lessons.

Therefore, while reconciliation (victory) may be the higher principle, in light of my lack of morale to continue the battle, only defeat can be expected. Maybe it's the low road, but it's the only acheiveable choice.

That is why I'm so confused with the negative momentum my life has picked up. Shall a man be made to tilt against an impossible opponent, and then suffer the consequences for failure? The God I know wouldn't do this. It must be something in my heart I think. Something I've failed to acknowledge.

I did consider your advice, and made attempt to re-examine God's apparent message to me concerning these things. I prayed about it. I saw my ex yesterday. I tried to imagine rebuilding. It was no good. I guess I just have to wait for God to speak.

 

[SnowBelle]

awwwwwwwwwww sooooooo sad!

All I can say is to turn your entire life to God...surrender it all!!

I know that it is hard ...I am trying to totally surrender to God everything...but some things are so hard to give up!

God is there for you ...and He will see you through ...He loves you totally ...God is the only one that we can get that true love from...no person can fulfill that need!

So run to God ...He is waiting with open arms!!

I will be praying for you!!
Love and HUGGLES!!!

 

[SnowBelle]

Here is a great song that is has been encouraging to me through this hard time!!

Hope you enjoy it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS6ZiYA1Y8I

 

[tanelornpete]

The direction I’ve taken in our exchange is pretty simple: before making any decision that will affect your life (and a divorce remains with you for the rest of your life, and affects it drastically) I urge you to step back and work toward removing the stress from your life before moving onwards. Since you are at the moment effectively single, this is the opportunity of a lifetime to dwell on God.

As for a high road or a low road, the ideal and it’s opposite, the undesirable: We should always adhere to ‘the higher principle’. In the case for a Christian, this would be the desire to please God in all that we do – Phil. 4:8-9 is a great place to start. I am not a Catholic either, but I do hold fast to the doctrine of total depravity. Total depravity means that we are sinful creatures and cannot, in our unregenerate state (that is, if we are spiritually dead) do anything that pleases God. But we are not spiritually dead:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
​

Also:

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
​

Finally check out Hebrews 12!

It is one thing to acknowledge that we cannot come up to the ideal – that’s impossible for any of us in this life. It’s something entirely different to say, ‘well, since I can’t be perfect, I’m going to do whatever I want, sinful or not.’ Should we sin so that Jesus’ death has more value? Our calling is not easy – it’s tough – and we fail all the time.

Could I point out that one thing many people miss is the fact that it isn’t only Jesus’ death and resurrection in our place that is important for us? His perfect life was also lived in our place so that we have the opportunity to offer to God a life without sin.

How do we show God gratitude for that?

You have stuck to your guns for better or worse, and there is virtue in this. I, in contrast, feel discretion is the better part of valor, and mostly, reason supersedes blind obedience unless one knows for certain that GOD COMMANDS them to do something. I couldn't love God as deeply as I do had I not searched him out and found his word pleasing to my spirit (still, all credit to God for his grace in choosing me as one who could find Him). I think both mentalities have their strong points.
​

I would like to make a stronger statement than yours: discretion is the better part of valor and reason ALWAYS supersedes blind obedience. If one knows for certain one of God’s commands, there is no ‘blindness’ involved. The guns I stick to are simple: I am a saved sinner, who wants to please God as a response of thanks for what He has done for me. Since I am not always sure what pleases God – and sometimes what pleases me does not please God, I need to turn to Him to find out what he would like.

There may have been some pain and hurt, but mostly now, it's only neutrality. The very fact that I can look back to my own failures without magnifying hers can attest to this. Hurt is very personal when people are deeply involved, but tends to diminish with emotional distance. That is the main reason I can't suffer an illogical reunion. There is no emotional charge to justify it. It's all said and done, and nothing remains but lessons.
​

I have never argued that you must remain married no matter what the cost. As we agreed earlier, both you and your wife have Biblical grounds for divorce. What I have consistently argued is that before you make any decision, learn what the good and perfect will of God is, and work toward being able to please Him. I disagree that there is only neutrality. That is just numbness from continued anger. Like I said, you have a right to be angry at what you wife did. The problem is that the anger, if not dealt with, consumes you. And, I am trying to give some advice here: it will resurface its ugly head on some unsuspecting person in the future. God tells us that if there is anger in us, to drop what we are doing and resolve the issue before doing anything else.

In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.
​

As for the final bit of that paragraph: I urge you to drop the idea that there must be emotional charge in order to justify actions. That’s why there is so much divorce in our society, why there is so much adultery, so much sin. People think that their emotions are the guide to making decisions – and the result is always failure. Let your emotions be secondary to doing what you know is right.

Therefore, while reconciliation (victory) may be the higher principle, in light of my lack of morale to continue the battle, only defeat can be expected. Maybe it's the low road, but it's the only acheiveable choice.
​

I disagree that it’s the only achievable choice: it’s the easiest to achieve. Life is made up of many difficult decisions. Where would we be if we always chose the easy way out? Regardless: reconciliation, in my mind, is not the higher principle. Pleasing God is. The low road is to choose your desires in contradiction to God’s will.

That is why I'm so confused with the negative momentum my life has picked up. Shall a man be made to tilt against an impossible opponent, and then suffer the consequences for failure? The God I know wouldn't do this. It must be something in my heart I think. Something I've failed to acknowledge.
​

I posit that the negative momentum in your life is a direct result of two things: living a life in direct conflict with what you know is right and the anger you have buried as a result of the spouse of your youth betraying you. On top of that we life in a nation that has become an over-taxed virtual police state. It’s hard for most of us to get anywhere in life when the government runs every aspect of our lives for the benefit of a very few. Nuff of the politix!

I did consider your advice, and made attempt to re-examine God's apparent message to me concerning these things. I prayed about it. I saw my ex yesterday. I tried to imagine rebuilding. It was no good. I guess I just have to wait for God to speak.
​

What you said in your last sentence! God does not comply with our time constraints very often.

David

 

[Demi4God]

Our faith will lead us through this dark time. I am in the midst of my divorice as well. God is there,just ask.
So many of us going through this,what's going on in our world? I meet so many dealing with similar fears.