'Seminaries would be full, if celibacy was optional'

[Glorthac]

Here are some of the ways you can fix the problem:

- Priests should encourage vocations and spot potentials in the parish
- Nuns should ditch the pins on their vests, get back into habits. They need to spend a little less time in the social justice stuff and have at least a presence in schools
- Young people should be explained vocations at any age. Most teenagers have no idea what a priest does all day.
- There needs to be more focus on college campuses with GOOD priests.
- There needs to be more vocation events- retreats, dinners, etc
- Vocations offices need to be dramatically changed. Priests need to be put in them that have the skills and time for it.

- The mentality of the church needs to change. Bishops should make vocations a major priority. This is the future of the Church.
- They need to accept the fact that doing nothing will accomplish just that
- They need to accept the fact that men in seminary are men and not little boys anymore that went to minor seminary at 13-14 and know nothing of the real world.
- You should not be able to enter seminary until 20 and with 2 years of college
- They need to see single 20-something men, which there are a lot of today, as a major source of potential vocations. Yet, most parishes and diocese offer very little to get them in church, much less to become priests.


I could go on and on, but this is a general list of some of the major problems I see. I don't think people know just how bad the Church is with vocations today because they haven't caught up with the Vatican II era in terms of bringing them IN and keeping them.

Are you Roman Catholic?

 

[Fantine]

- Nuns should ditch the pins on their vests, get back into habits. They need to spend a little less time in the social justice stuff and have at least a presence in schools.

You might be surprised to learn that the orders of sisters who came to the United States from Europe in the 19th century were primarily monastic or contemplative (as sisters in Europe are today.)

When they came to the US, they were pressed into service running schools and hospitals because they were a source of free labor. If you read the histories of some of these groups (I've read two) the stories of how they were treated in the parishes in which they served would curl your hair.

And so the sisters of today, the ones with the "pins", have really returned to their original charisms of monastic and contemplative life, living and praying in communities, welcoming guests who want to share in their lives and charisms as they would Christ, offering spiritual direction and retreats to visitors. This is what they were doing for centuries before they were pressed into indentured servitude by immigrant populations wanting inexpensive Catholic schooling and medical care.

My own opinion is that Catholic sisters today should be like "salt" or "leaven." I have seen the impact of one sister in a parish in pastoral ministry and campus ministry.

But instead the new habited orders seem to be following the indentured servitude model. They pick a school and they all teach in the same one. Take the Nashville Dominicans, a conservative order. Imagine the impact they would have if two of them were a presence in each of the Catholic schools in their diocese instead of having one school taught entirely by sisters who are influencing 3-400 students tops...

They need to learn the leavening trick.

I think, also, that it wouldn't hurt for those conservative Dominican sisters to go out and do "internships" in other Dominican groups where sisters are older. They would be a blessed presence to the older sisters, and they would probably learn a thing or two or two-thousand...

And if they were a little temporary "leaven" in the other Dominican groups, it would be easier for them to attract a little bit of their own leaven.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Are you Roman Catholic?

You think I would post that if I wasn't?

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

You might be surprised to learn that the orders of sisters who came to the United States from Europe in the 19th century were primarily monastic or contemplative (as sisters in Europe are today.)

When they came to the US, they were pressed into service running schools and hospitals because they were a source of free labor. If you read the histories of some of these groups (I've read two) the stories of how they were treated in the parishes in which they served would curl your hair.

They came over to serve. They are like their brother monks who came to the US and had to get to work too. There weren't rich families here to support them financially.

And so the sisters of today, the ones with the "pins", have really returned to their original charisms of monastic and contemplative life, living and praying in communities, welcoming guests who want to share in their lives and charisms as they would Christ, offering spiritual direction and retreats to visitors. This is what they were doing for centuries before they were pressed into indentured servitude by immigrant populations wanting inexpensive Catholic schooling and medical care.

No, Sister Soupkitchens are often engaged in a particular social agenda. The communities can be incredibly closed and closed minded. I don't normally disagree with you this strongly, fantine, but your implication that they were slaves demeans them, the work they did and they Church's notion of religious life and devotion.

My own opinion is that Catholic sisters today should be like "salt" or "leaven." I have seen the impact of one sister in a parish in pastoral ministry and campus ministry.

But instead the new habited orders seem to be following the indentured servitude model. They pick a school and they all teach in the same one. Take the Nashville Dominicans, a conservative order. Imagine the impact they would have if two of them were a presence in each of the Catholic schools in their diocese instead of having one school taught entirely by sisters who are influencing 3-400 students tops...

Sister SocialChange isn't really being part of community if she is out of the community teaching in different schools. The habited orders follow the servant of Christ model, not the easy life, everyone has their own pantsuits and cars model.

Religious life is about dedication to one's community and their mission.

I think, also, that it wouldn't hurt for those conservative Dominican sisters to go out and do "internships" in other Dominican groups where sisters are older. They would be a blessed presence to the older sisters, and they would probably learn a thing or two or two-thousand...

And if they were a little temporary "leaven" in the other Dominican groups, it would be easier for them to attract a little bit of their own leaven.

I don't think you know this, but those older sisters don't want them. If there is one thing I know about religious and clerical groups in the Catholic Church, we form divisions of like-minded people and the input and presence of others isn't usually welcome. I hope I don't scandalize anyone with this (I'm oh so sure) stunning revelation... but all the groups will work together for the glory of God and for the service of people.... but some groups would really rather avoid others.

 

[Joshua G.]

In the Diocese that covers the Upper Pennisula of Michigan (or part of it?), a few years ago they re-instituted 24-hour Eucharistic adoration. In every area they have at least one Church open to anyone who wants to come by and pray before the Eucharist. Seminarian enrollment from that diocese rose a lot that very year and I cannot imagine that that was merely coincidence. I am not saying that it was the only cause, in fact, the decision to take on the task of planning and offering 24 Eucharistic adoration may be, rather, a symptom of a diocese that began to go back to basics, learn more from it's tradition about how to create holy communities. To focus on the spiritual health in ways that only Apostolic Churches are able and take focus away from trying to be "current" a problem so many Catholic diocese around the world have fallen into (I dread the day that happens to us!). Thankfully MANY diocese are waking up in what seems to be a renewal of Catholics wanting to be... Catholic The most poignant example to me is the Saginaw diocese of Michigan.

Lack of priests, in my opinion, is due primarily to people not valuing vocations. Everyone likes to see the cute nun and the serious monk and the hard-working priest and admire them from afar, but they just magically appear like any other furnishing in a Church. Obviously I am preaching to the choir here, but it seems to me that you are not the majority at all in your church, although I do think you are a growing minority, praise to God!

Josh

 

[Miss Shelby]

hell would be full if sin were optional. no that really doesn't work does it?

In any event, people put to much emphasis on being able to get laid. It's not a need. And celibacy is a discipline. We don't like discipline in this day and age, we like to get laid. which is sad, because 90 percent of the time it leads to problems.

 

[Fantine]

No, the sisters who came to the United States didn't have rich families who supported them, but for many years they weren't exactly "supported" by the schools and hospitals they worked for, either. Why do you think there's a religious retirement financial crisis today? Because so many sisters never got paid, never got pension contributions, and only qualify for minimal Social Security because the salaries that Social Security taxes were paid on (which they never actually received) were listed as minimum wage.

The orders that don't wear habits are every bit as dedicated to their communities and missions as the habited orders. They adjusted their missions to conform to Vatican II and to deal with their aging membership, but in many cases they went back to their original monastic and contemplative missions.

I think that most religious orders have dealt with many different personalities throughout their histories. Each member has her own ideas and philosophy. Since their common bond is their love of God, liberals and conservatives can live together in harmony if they allow one another the intellectual freedom to have their own ideas, and in this way they can live together productively.

 

[Joshua G.]

Miss Shelby. I would agree with that.

Just to offer balance (but seriously, in saying what I will, it is not to push for the lifting of the celibacy requirement in the West) many people put a lot of emphasis on having a biological family (i.e. kids) which necessitates "getting laid" (I love your "undisguised clarity" ). So, one can understand the difficulty and even sadness a man may feel when he feels called to be a dad and husband as well as a priest. Now, that's not to say God truly DID intend that for him. Even in the East, the calling he thinks he feels to be a priest may be mistaken for a calling to serve the Church in other ways. There was a time when I felt God was calling me to live in Spain. That would have screwed up EVERYTHING. But I felt it nonetheless. On the other hand, the feeling may be very genuine and frustrated only by temporal/spacial circumstances (temporal: born now rather than 1500 years ago when that could ahve been an option/ spacial: born in the Western Church) but even if this is true, even if the man could have been a wonderful husband AND a wonderful priest, the good in having this ban in the West may very well outweigh any of the "bad" (or better put, frustration) it SEEMS to create in the lives of a few individuals.

When I say I have no opinion in the Western Practice in the RCC, I really mean that. Not only because it's not my business (bc it's not) but because I recognize that our respective Traditions are built around and on top of smaller "changeable" (but still important) traditions. So, while having married and celibate clergy in the East is a true blessing to us, the West is built around the general expectation that a priest is celibate and tied to no one but his parish and, ultimately, to his bishop. While married clergy offer unmatched benefits, celibate clergy obviously has benefits offers unmatched benefits for the reason (although not limited to) mentioned in the last sentence.

As I said in another thread here, I see the Two traditons as big machines that have taken centuries to put together. Some cogs look like they could be taken out or replaced with ease and see as if such a change would actually be beneficial. MAYBE it would be. But it might be disastrous as well. So the engineers of this machine hired by God (the bishops and ultimately for you, the Pope) have to be VERY cautious about making any changes. And, it would seem to me, irresponsible, to take out this cog (ie lfiting the celibacy mandate) for the mundane (and really selfish, if I may be so bold) of filling seminaries.

I hope this isn't misconstrued as somehow debating Western Catholic practice. I don't know how it would be, but I apologize if I have offended the sensibilities of anyone's faith here. But I intend for it to actually be quite pro-Western Catholic. I hope that comes across.

Josh

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The priesthood is a calling, which comes from God. We can't attract people to the priesthood, only God can call them.

The problem is, so many young men have seen so many priest fail to live up to their vow of celibacy, that they pretty much know they could never do it and so never respond to the call.

Jim

I agree completely that it is a calling. The priesthood was never intended to be as common a "profession" (if I could borrow that word for a moment) as say, a Car Mechanic.

However, I think that by focusing on Spiritual Development among the youth (and I believe this to be true for both our Church's) it can help young people better discern whether or not a life serving the Church through the clergy or monastics is for them. Even if you don't have a plethora of clergy come out of it, you've still helped people with their walk with Christ, so it's a win-win.

Years ago life was literally built around the Church and family. In Europe villages were literally built around the Church with their economies based on the money made by the laborers needed to build the Church while the town established itself. When my great-grandparents came to this country in 1911, and founded the parish I was raised in, everyone lived within walking distance of the Church.

On Sundays after Church, you would go visiting family. To do anything else was unheard of.

Today, the average American commute to Church on Sunday is 40 min. Afterwards, we run off to "watch the game" and do whatever else it is we do. When parents come home from work, children come home from school, a quick dinner is thrown together then everyone sits in their own individual corners watching TV or surfing the internet.

We need to get "back to basics" of what is really important in life. I think when we do that, we will see more people considering the monastics and clergy.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

- You should not be able to enter seminary until 20 and with 2 years of college

In the US, in order for a man to be an Orthodox priest, he must have a Bachelor's degree before he can even enter seminary*, where he receives his MDiv.

Perhaps this would be a better alternative?





*Before I get lambasted, yes, I know there are exceptions, so no need to bring up Fr. so-and-so that you know from Just-South-Of-Somewhere who was ordained through an alternative, but rare, route.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

whenever anyone uses the word "outdated" it's obvious they're more concerned about appearing "progressive" than about truth.

 

[KatherineS]

whenever anyone uses the word "outdated" it's obvious they're more concerned about appearing "progressive" than about truth.

Whenever anyone refers to a discipline of the Latin church as a matter of "truth" it is obvious they are more concerned about conformity than the pastoral care of souls.

 

[Fantine]

Back to the nuns...didn't someone say something about nuns here?

About how they should stop being pastoral counselors wearing "pantsuits" and "driving cars."

What is the difference, I ask you, between a priest living in a rectory in a parish, praying the divine office by himself, ministering to his parish, and attending regular retreats and workshops with his fellow priests, and a nun who is doing the same?

Are you afraid that if a nun with a driver's license and a pantsuit works in a parish and lives in a nearby apartment she might actually develop a mind of her own? Do they need the protection of the other nuns to keep them from "falling out of line?"

I have never heard such patronizing, misogynistic fallacies in my life....

Yes, they are leaven when they minister in parishes. Many of us have developed close relationships with the sisters who minister in our parishes and are grateful that they are willing to live away from their communities to minister to us.

Hopefully our gratitude will make up for the ingratitude and disrespect of others.

 

[Athanasias]

My Seminary in St. Louis is busting at the seems and they had to add several additions on to it becasue of all the seminary students. These men want to be celibate. So no problem in St. Louis.

It is interesting that the orthodox communities of nuns and priest are growing and rapidly as Oprah has demonstrated with her Dominican nuns with a average age of 26 whose order tripled recently in number, but the Progressive orders are shrinking and made of predominantly gray haired women and men.

Seems like Orthodoxy(truth) is important to this young generation who also has studied Vatican II!!

 

[KatherineS]

the Progressive orders are shrinking and made of predominantly gray haired ... men.

You really don't like people with gray hair, do you?

 

[Athanasias]

You really don't like people with gray hair, do you?

LOL. Well not all, But then again he isn't exactly as progressive as many would like him to be. When he was made Pope the very progressive Loretto nuns at my wife high school scowled and a few of them protested.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Back to the nuns...didn't someone say something about nuns here?

About how they should stop being pastoral counselors wearing "pantsuits" and "driving cars."

What is the difference, I ask you, between a priest living in a rectory in a parish, praying the divine office by himself, ministering to his parish, and attending regular retreats and workshops with his fellow priests, and a nun who is doing the same?

Are you afraid that if a nun with a driver's license and a pantsuit works in a parish and lives in a nearby apartment she might actually develop a mind of her own? Do they need the protection of the other nuns to keep them from "falling out of line?"

I have never heard such patronizing, misogynistic fallacies in my life....

Yes, they are leaven when they minister in parishes. Many of us have developed close relationships with the sisters who minister in our parishes and are grateful that they are willing to live away from their communities to minister to us.

Hopefully our gratitude will make up for the ingratitude and disrespect of others.

This is more a point of curiosity then contention, if a nun is assigned to a parish as you describe, does she have to give up her habit? I mean, couldn't there be a happy medium with a Sister performing the ministries you mentioned while wearing the habit?

I ask, because some Orthodox parishes do have nuns affiliated with them and are assigned ministries, but the Sisters do wear a habit.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Back to the nuns...didn't someone say something about nuns here?

About how they should stop being pastoral counselors wearing "pantsuits" and "driving cars."

What is the difference, I ask you, between a priest living in a rectory in a parish, praying the divine office by himself, ministering to his parish, and attending regular retreats and workshops with his fellow priests, and a nun who is doing the same?

Nuns are counterparts to monks, not priests.... but I know the ones who wear pins and pantsuits often give that impression. If the priest is diocesian, that is the life he is supposed to live. There is a reason they are called "secular" priests.

Are you afraid that if a nun with a driver's license and a pantsuit works in a parish and lives in a nearby apartment she might actually develop a mind of her own? Do they need the protection of the other nuns to keep them from "falling out of line?"

It really has nothing to do with her sex. It has to do with commitment to religious life. I am disappointed that you immediately moved to play the sexist card. I think many monks are just as equally bad.

I have never heard such patronizing, misogynistic fallacies in my life....

What is funny is that you are actually the one being narrow-minded and sexist towards women. You have a very particular view on how religious women should live and work and basically insulted untold scores of them. From your mindset, the ones that are dedicated to obedience, community, poverty and simplicity are lesser women. It is the women that take those vows and then live in a completely different way that have a 'mind of their own'.

Hopefully our gratitude will make up for the ingratitude and disrespect of others.

Who is the one really showing that?
There is a reason that young women are flocking to religious orders that act like them- they don't want to be single women who live alone, work in parishes and whose only real affiliation with a religious order anymore is a pin and initials after their names.

They want to live in community and imitate Jesus' life of poverty and obedience. My issue has nothing to do with women, but religious orders that don't really mean anything.

 

[MariaRegina]

Winter;



Celibacy has always been a problem, in fact its been debated for centuries since is mandate.

There were more men entering the seminaries in the past, because families were larger, and also, it was a tradition in Europe and even the US, to have one son enter the priesthood. There was a lot of pressure placed on the son who didn't look like he had a chance of meeting anyone to get married. Same was true of girls. The daughter who didn't look good as a marriage prospect, was often coerced into joining a convent.

The result of course was that we had bitter men as priest and bitter nuns. Both hated their ministries and felt trapped. Leaving in the old days was mortal sin, and you were condemned to hell, but also ostracized by your own family. I'm talking a mere 50 years ago.


Jim

When I entered a Catholic convent in the mid 1960s, the reverse was true. Almost all the girls were beautiful teenagers who had just graduated from high school, and who had left very eligible boyfriends to enter the convent. They were not coerced. In fact, these ladies had to swear in a signed affidavit that they were not coerced in any way before being received into the Novitiate.

The same applied for the men who entered the seminary. Most were very handsome men.

I lived next to St. Albert's Dominican Seminary in Berkeley, California. The novices were also very handsome men and they had to sign papers saying that they were not forced into the seminary and that they were freely committing their lives to God.

I was taught, however, that rich girls entering convents in Mexico way back before the 1900s were often sent there if the parents could not find an appropriate suitor for their daughter or if the parents did not want to pay a dowry. This was taught as part of my Spanish culture class at a community college. Was that true or was this an anti-Catholic rumor started by the communist rulers in Mexico designed to free the nuns from the convents?

 

[DesertSky]

Celibacy has always been a problem, in fact its been debated for centuries since is mandate.

There were more men entering the seminaries in the past, because families were larger, and also, it was a tradition in Europe and even the US, to have one son enter the priesthood. There was a lot of pressure placed on the son who didn't look like he had a chance of meeting anyone to get married. Same was true of girls. The daughter who didn't look good as a marriage prospect, was often coerced into joining a convent.

The result of course was that we had bitter men as priest and bitter nuns. Both hated their ministries and felt trapped. Leaving in the old days was mortal sin, and you were condemned to hell, but also ostracized by your own family. I'm talking a mere 50 years ago.

What a load.