Self-Torment - Part 2 (Revised)

[Chris†opher Paul]

Regarding my earlier question:

I did come up with an answer, and I think it has to do with Relativity. Time is a function of space, as Einstein demonstrated to us. Without space, there is no time. God is outside of time, since He made space, and is the Eternal. Therefore, the whole question, did God have (pre)knowledge of whom would go to Hell is actually illogical, since the (pre) has to do with linear time, which doesn't exist, except from our perspective.

Of course, I wonder, is that answer limiting God? Saying that He couldn't see the future seems limiting at first, but since He lives in an eternal "Now," then there is no (pre). He can see the future only in terms of there being a future, ie, inside our universe, which He can certainly predict, but only AFTER creating us.

Thoughts?

I guess I agree with Stormy on this one, but its a hard topic which I had to revise a bit over the weekend.

 

[Josephus]

I like it soul, because it means that when God is WITH us, he too has limited himself to this time-space continuum. Outside of this time-space continuum, God also exists. But since neither the past, nor the future exists, God is only able to enter the present, and see the present.

It's not limiting God to say that he's not where something doesn't exist.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks brother. I think I am right and I appreciate your feedback.

 

[Neo]

Time is just a concept of the passage of events. If God moved, or did anything at all.. then the concept of time applies to him, he can't exist 'outside of time'.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Neo
Time is just a concept of the passage of events. If God moved, or did anything at all.. then the concept of time applies to him, he can't exist 'outside of time'.

Time is a function of space, as Einstein showed. Anything outside of space is not subject to time as we know it.

If God exists, He created space, and He is certainly outside of time, by definition. You believe that the Universe is eternal and infinite, so there can be no outside of the Universe for you.

We have different axioms, and as such, it is pointless to argue about our beliefs in this area.

 

[Neo]

Originally posted by s0uljah


Time is a function of space, as Einstein showed. Anything outside of space is not subject to time as we know it.

If God exists, He is certainly outside of time.

Action requires time, and if God acted, then the concept of time applies to him. He can't exist 'outside' of time.

You believe that the Universe is eternal and infinite, so there can be no outside of the Universe for you.

That's because by definition, there is no 'outside' of the universe. The universe is everything that exists, anywhere. If God exists, anywhere, then he is a part of the universe.

 

[Neo]

"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live."
--Albert Einstein

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

If time is all in your head Neo, then I suppose you will not age. Great for you.

 

[Neo]

Originally posted by s0uljah
If time is all in your head Neo, then I suppose you will not age. Great for you.

Time is not biological changes that take place in the human body, time is a concept of the passage of events.

 

[bartleby]

souljah,
i'm sorry to intrude but i think what you've posted on this thread is very interesting but i'm not entirely sure i've got my head round it. with that in mind please go easy on me...

i think i understand the point that to ask "did God have (pre)knowledge of whom would go to Hell" is illogical because God cannot have known 'before' because being outside of time (as he is (was? will be?)) there was no 'before'.
forgetting for the moment the complications that follow regarding 'in the beginning' and the further complications that whilst the occaisions of God's intervention seem to be temporally distinct for us they in fact all must have occured simultaneously for God (being outside time) there are two things that really confuses me.
this is that if we accept that God is in this way outside of time and space then it is also must be true that He did not exist before its creation (as there was no 'before' the creation)

the second confusion i have as is with regards to your statement "He can see the future only in terms of there being a future, ie, inside our universe, which He can certainly predict, but only AFTER creating us."
surely if God is outside of time and space then not only is it illogical to ask what He knew before the creation but also to state what He knew afterward, as both concepts are only relevant within the context of time which God is outside. and so the only answer must be not that he knew before or knew afterwards but that if he knows at all, he has always and will always know.

am i understanding this right?
thanks
bb

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by bartleby
souljah,
i'm sorry to intrude but i think what you've posted on this thread is very interesting but i'm not entirely sure i've got my head round it. with that in mind please go easy on me...

i think i understand the point that to ask "did God have (pre)knowledge of whom would go to Hell" is illogical because God cannot have known 'before' because being outside of time (as he is (was? will be?)) there was no 'before'.
forgetting for the moment the complications that follow regarding 'in the beginning' and the further complications that whilst the occaisions of God's intervention seem to be temporally distinct for us they in fact all must have occured simultaneously for God (being outside time) there are two things that really confuses me.
this is that if we accept that God is in this way outside of time and space then it is also must be true that He did not exist before its creation (as there was no 'before' the creation)

the second confusion i have as is with regards to your statement "He can see the future only in terms of there being a future, ie, inside our universe, which He can certainly predict, but only AFTER creating us."
surely if God is outside of time and space then not only is it illogical to ask what He knew before the creation but also to state what He knew afterward, as both concepts are only relevant within the context of time which God is outside. and so the only answer must be not that he knew before or knew afterwards but that if he knows at all, he has always and will always know.

am i understanding this right?
thanks
bb

Hey-

Your not intruding man, its all good.

I have a meeting in a few minutes, but I will get back to you later.

But real quick, your second point is correct, I shouldn't have stated it in terms of "AFTER" since that is temporal, we well. Thank you.

ttyl

 

[Stormy]

Are you stating that God does not know the future?

 

 

[Stormy]

You do not have to understand to except that God is who he says he is.

If you place the importance of human understanding on God then you reduce him greatly.

I will leave this debate. See you around the forums

 

[Josephus]

"If you place the importance of human understanding on God then you reduce him greatly."

On the contary, for if we did not have the means by which to understand him, then we would not have the desire to trust Him.

 

[Stormy]

A child does not understand the world of his Father. But he knows him...loves him...and trusts him. Because his father loved him first.

We will always remain children to God.

 

 

[Josephus]

Let me bold an emphasis on what I meant, for Stormy, I think we are both agreeing on the same issue, but we're talking apples and oranges:


On the contary, for if we did not have the means by which to understand him, then we would not have the desire to trust Him. 

If God did not clearly set himself apart as being able to be understood by us in the simplest of terms, then there wouldn't be a way to truly find out if God is any more real than any other god.

No, we need something a little more real.  If God is God, then He would appeal to our hearts, our spirit, and our intellect. We need truth, and all truth in this universe as we have come to know it, can be found to begin in the simplest of terms, and if God is God, then Truth would beging to be understood and experienced by our hearts, our spirit, and our minds.

What I am hoping to be teaching readers to do here, is to not leave out the intellectual truth of the simplicity of Who God is, rather than just preaching to others that God is a "feeling, or experience."  I believe the Truth can be found to be related to not just the feelings and experience of God, but also the rational understanding that even a simple child can grasp; for in that, many questions can be answered if we truly have one to give for the hope that we have.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by Neo
Time is just a concept of the passage of events. If God moved, or did anything at all.. then the concept of time applies to him, he can't exist 'outside of time'.

 

I think time only applies to physical or natural movement...

 

With that, "GOd moving" on the "face of the waters" for exmaple would mean that God, in that action, limited himself by acting within time, but that does not mean that God is always fully within time.

 

[Neo]

Originally posted by ZoneChaos




I think time only applies to physical or natural movement...

The concept of time applies to any action. God could not even exist without the concept of time applying to him.

With that, "GOd moving" on the "face of the waters" for exmaple would mean that God, in that action, limited himself by acting within time, but that does not mean that God is always fully within time.

Time isn't something that you can exist in and out of, it's just a concept.

 

[bartleby]

on a similar topic to Neo's i'm not sure how meaningful it is to say that God is "outside space and time" because 'outside space' implies a spatial relationship which would be impossible for something that wasn't in space in the first place.

on a topic identical to Neo's i think the only way you can maintain that God exists 'outside time' is if you conceive that for him everything he has ever done and ever will do was performed simulataneously though from our perspective it seems to occur sequentially. if it appeared to god that he thought one thought before another then he must exist in time. besides if he exists outside of time this would make various of God's actions as reported quite senseless and would also mean quite literally that god did not exist before the creation of time and space, which would then force the question "what made God come into existence?"

hope this helps
bb

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by bartleby
on a similar topic to Neo's i'm not sure how meaningful it is to say that God is "outside space and time" because 'outside space' implies a spatial relationship which would be impossible for something that wasn't in space in the first place.

on a topic identical to Neo's i think the only way you can maintain that God exists 'outside time' is if you conceive that for him everything he has ever done and ever will do was performed simulataneously though from our perspective it seems to occur sequentially. if it appeared to god that he thought one thought before another then he must exist in time. besides if he exists outside of time this would make various of God's actions as reported quite senseless and would also mean quite literally that god did not exist before the creation of time and space, which would then force the question "what made God come into existence?"

hope this helps
bb

Exactly.  From God's perspective (in Heaven), everything is in an Eternal Now.  We see it as sequential, but from His, it just IS.

He can enter our world, of course, from which He can be seen as acting in a linear timeframe. 

Neo does not believe in anything outside of the Universe.  He defines the Universe as everything that exists...anywhere, hence, he does not accept this idea.