Self-Torment and a Loving God

[Chris†opher Paul]

I believe that God loves us all and wants everyone to be saved.

(1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved, 2 Peter 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance, etc)

I believe that we have freewill and can reject the free gift of salvation.

(Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject and God's sovereignty includes our freewill, etc.)

Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined, meaning God knows what we will do in advance, but does not determine it.  He loves us enough to allow us to make the choice ourselves, even though He knows where we will end up, as He knows all things.

(Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God predestined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it, but it does not mean that God determines what we do, etc)

If you agree with these premises, I have a question:

Why does God allow those that will freely choose to send themselves to Hell to be born, if He loves us all? 

(Matthew 26:24 - The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."  Jesus said it would be better for Judas to have never been born, for example. )

 

[fakemind]

would you really feel that we had a free choice if everybody born chose God? what if it was true - when you were born, everybody told you that you would choose God - because everybody who was ever born chose God, and so will you.

i think your question relates a lot to questions people have with "predestination". why does God allow a person to come into existance if He knows they will not choose Him? if we go back farther ... why did God choose to create the universe if He knew adam and eve would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sin would enter the world? -- and honestly i dont think we can come up with a good answer - because i think that the world couldn't have been any other way. how else could it be?

much Christian love

 

[Andrew]

"Why does God allow those that will freely choose to send themselves to Hell to be born, if He loves us all?"

I think there is something wrong with this statement. No one wants to knowingly send himself to hell. What is happening is that they simply dont want to believe there is a God or in Jesus saving work.

But to answer your question -- freewill. If a man and woman comes together, God is not going to stop the sperm and egg from fertilising, just as he is not gonna suspend the la of gravity shld someone decide to jump. Nor will he stop the bullet from leaving the gun shld a man decide to pull the trigger.

 

[Homie]

s0uljah, I agree with your 3 statements, and I think that they answear your question. If somebody asked me the question you did, I would probably answear using the three statements you wrote. If he were to kill or "unborn" someone because they didn't make the right choice it would not be free will.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Why does God allow those that will freely choose to send themselves to Hell to be born, if He loves us all?"

I think there is something wrong with this statement. No one wants to knowingly send himself to hell. What is happening is that they simply dont want to believe there is a God or in Jesus saving work.

But to answer your question -- freewill. If a man and woman comes together, God is not going to stop the sperm and egg from fertilising, just as he is not gonna suspend the la of gravity shld someone decide to jump. Nor will he stop the bullet from leaving the gun shld a man decide to pull the trigger.

Great post Andrew. While preventing evil sounds simple in the abstract, when one looks at what it would require, it becomes obvious that free will would be compromised.

For example, if everyone who tried to murder someone immediately fell into a seizure, could we still call our wills free?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I dont think you all have come to terms with my question. I will try and be more clear.

God knows us all before He forms us in the womb. The Bible states that, correct?

He _could_ only form those that would freely choose to love Him, couldn't He, since He knows the future? This would have no impact on their freewill in choosing Him.

The ones that He knows will eventually reject Him, freely, He could simply refuse to create, thus sparing them eternal torment, since He loves them, couldnt He?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I dont think you all have come to terms with my question. I will try and be more clear.

God knows us all before He forms us in the womb. The Bible states that, correct?

He _could_ only form those that would freely choose to love Him, couldn't He, since He knows the future? This would have no impact on their freewill in choosing Him.

The ones that He knows will eventually reject Him, freely, He could simply refuse to create, thus sparing them eternal torment, since He loves them, couldnt He?

I'm not sure whether we should interpret "form" as an active or passive action. God definitely knows everything about us before we are born, but does the passage imply that He picks and chooses who is born and who is not? I'm not so sure.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
I'm not sure whether we should interpret "form" as an active or passive action. God definitely knows everything about us before we are born, but does the passage imply that He picks and chooses who is born and who is not? I'm not so sure.

Oh quite definately brother, He does pick and choose.  Everyone is here exactly at the time in history that He chooses.  That is part of what makes people "lovable" to me, their chosen existence by God.  We are all special to Him and exist here as He chose.

This is the one aspect of Christianity that confuses me.  Why even bother to create those that would reject Him.  Omniscience and Omnibenevolence...hmmmm.

 

[Force]

Ok your a father.....

you have two kids one grows up and is a star athlete or something great...not bad at all...the other grows up and becomes a murderer.....you have an oppurtunity to go back in time if you want and prevent the murderer from being born...Do you?

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Force
Ok your a father.....

you have two kids one grows up and is a star athlete or something great...not bad at all...the other grows up and becomes a murderer.....you have an oppurtunity to go back in time if you want and prevent the murderer from being born...Do you?

 

That analogy fails because I didn't know what the child would become in the first place. God does.  If I did, I would certainly not conceive the child in the first place, if it were gonna go to Hell.

 

[Force]

Originally posted by s0uljah
That analogy fails because I didn't know what the child would become in the first place. God does.  If I did, I would certainly not conceive the child in the first place, if it were gonna go to Hell.

The analogy works because you do know what the child became so you get the choice.

Because you are not God, and with the small amount of understanding and knowledge that you have as a human that scenario is as close as your going to get.  Its the same general principle.

And you still didnt answer the question, what would you do?

 

[Wildfire]

Have you ever read the parable of the wheat and the tares? In this example, we are shown that God allows the good (wheat) to grow with the wicked (tares). God did not want the tares to be sown with the wheat, (satans work) and does not pull them up, because if he did, the wheat would be pulled up also. But he tells us that when it is time for the harvest (end of the world), they would be separated and judged.

To say to yourself, "why bother trying, since God already knows what path I will choose", is not the correct way to view your relationship with Him. Instead, say, "what can I do to show my love for Him." and you will be surprised at how good that feels.

The parable of the talents is another example of how your works in this life, will determine your future place with him: God gave talents to three men, according to their ability. And after some time, God returned to them. The first two men were willing and excited to show God what they had gained while he was away. And they were rewarded by their faithfulness; enter into the kingdom of heaven! The last man felt ashamed, because he did nothing and gained nothing; so he gave God back the talent that he had given him, saying what is yours is yours. And God was angry, and called him an unprofitable servant and cast him into outer darkness.

So the choice is mine and yours. The kingdom of God is given to those who seek for it. As we are told by Jesus; that we shall all be separated in the end. As a net is cast into the sea, the good vessels shall be kept and the bad shall be thrown away.

If it is in your heart to do good, and to seek God, then there will be no place for questioning ones destiny. That is where trust takes over; remember that Jesus did not leave any of us comfortless. Ask and you shall recieve. That is His promise to us. Read the book of John for love and ask the holy spirit to guide you into all truth and understanding.

Wildfire

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

became

That right, became, not become. The whole issue is God's foreknowledge.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Have you ever read the parable of the wheat and the tares? In this example, we are shown that God allows the good (wheat) to grow with the wicked (tares). God did not want the tares to be sown with the wheat, (satans work) and does not pull them up, because if he did, the wheat would be pulled up also. But he tells us that when it is time for the harvest (end of the world), they would be separated and judged.

To say to yourself, "why bother trying, since God already knows what path I will choose", is not the correct way to view your relationship with Him. Instead, say, "what can I do to show my love for Him." and you will be surprised at how good that feels.

The parable of the talents is another example of how your works in this life, will determine your future place with him: God gave talents to three men, according to their ability. And after some time, God returned to them. The first two men were willing and excited to show God what they had gained while he was away. And they were rewarded by their faithfulness; enter into the kingdom of heaven! The last man felt ashamed, because he did nothing and gained nothing; so he gave God back the talent that he had given him, saying what is yours is yours. And God was angry, and called him an unprofitable servant and cast him into outer darkness.

So the choice is mine and yours. The kingdom of God is given to those who seek for it. As we are told by Jesus; that we shall all be separated in the end. As a net is cast into the sea, the good vessels shall be kept and the bad shall be thrown away.

If it is in your heart to do good, and to seek God, then there will be no place for questioning ones destiny. That is where trust takes over; remember that Jesus did not leave any of us comfortless. Ask and you shall recieve. That is His promise to us. Read the book of John for love and ask the holy spirit to guide you into all truth and understanding.

Wildfire

I agree with all that, as I said in the first post.  My question is why would you create something that would choose to throw itself into Hell, if you love it?

 

[Force]

Originally posted by s0uljah
That right, became, not become. The whole issue is God's foreknowledge.

So basically you dont have an answer because you know that you are decent and would not choose to not concieve your own child because you know the outcome....Same with God.

Switch it around to if you know the future or something......The whole point is...that little bit that you love your kid is like 1% of how God loves us and your asking why would he not create something he loves....

It is 100% our choice to not love God, he is ALWAYS standing there with his arms wide open.  He cant help it if we are too pig headed.  Why is that his fault?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Sigh...

In fact, I said if I knew the outcome I wouldnt have the child, if was going to burn in Hell forever, because I love it. I can only imagine God loves us a lot more than I could.

Freewill has nothing to do with this. I said originally I believe in it. But we are talking about foreknowledge, which doesnt interfere with freewill.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Oh quite definately brother, He does pick and choose.  Everyone is here exactly at the time in history that He chooses.  That is part of what makes people "lovable" to me, their chosen existence by God.  We are all special to Him and exist here as He chose.

This is the one aspect of Christianity that confuses me.  Why even bother to create those that would reject Him.  Omniscience and Omnibenevolence...hmmmm.

So, if God did not choose whether or not an individual is born, they would be somehow less loveable to you?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
So, if God did not choose whether or not an individual is born, they would be somehow less loveable to you?

Kind of...I mean, take someone that acts in evil ways.  The only redeeming quality I see in them is that they are children of God, placed here by His will.  They are not accidents, so to speak.

But lets get back to the topic please.  Can anyone answer this for me?

 

[Rising_Suns]

I think He also allows them to be born to help others come to Him. These people who He knows will deny Him will bring more pain and suffering which will only strengthen the true believers in Christ. If everyone chose Christ, then there would be no need to spread the word of God. Evangelism would not exist. I'm sure there are better reasons, but I believe this is a part of it.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I would certainly not conceive the child in the first place, if it were gonna go to Hell.

God never intended for man to go to hell. He created hell for the angels who fell. Then man got caught up in the rebellion. So hell was enlarged:

Isaiah 5:14a Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,

If it were God's plan to send man to hell, then He would have created hell big enough in the first place.

Even though He created man with free will, still, mankind has the chance to repent. Salvation has to do with repentance, not predestination. God predestine those who believe to be saved. He did not predestine who would and who would not believe or put their trust in the Blood of Jesus.