Self-Torment and a Loving God

[Chris†opher Paul]

Salvation has to do with repentance, not predestination.

Hmmmm, you might be on to something there...

God knows we are all sinners...all worthy of Hell...but to escape it, the person must repent. You can't repent until you are born...

God also knows who will repent and who won't, so why let those that won't repent, to be born, if He loves them...or perhaps the question is nonsense....arrgh.

 

[Rising_Suns]

or perhaps the question is nonsense.

It's a good question. But it's not one that can be answered with any degree of certainty, since our bible doesn't touch on this issue directly. Should it? Well some things may be better left unknown. Jesus withheld a mountain of wisdom from His diciples because He didn't think they could handle it. It seems He gave them a basic framework to follow by, and so that's what we have today.

Any answers we give would be speculation, but hey, we're entitled to atleast that right?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
It's a good question. But it's not one that can be answered with any degree of certainty, since our bible doesn't touch on this issue directly. Should it? Well some things may be better left unknown. Jesus withheld a mountain of wisdom from His diciples because He didn't think they could handle it. It seems He gave them a basic framework to follow by, and so that's what we have today.

Any answers we give would be speculation, but hey, we're entitled to atleast that right?

True.  God has made me hunt after this knowledge for His own reasons, I just hope I can catch it one day!

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I believe that God loves us all and wants everyone to be saved.

(1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved, 2 Peter 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance, etc)

I do agree But not the way you think...I'll expand in a lower comment.

I believe that we have freewill and can reject the free gift of salvation.

(Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject and God's sovereignty includes our freewill, etc.)

Where did this definition or whatever come from? I don't have a book in MY Bible with the Sir. pre-fix I do not agree that we have the power to reject the irresistible grace of God almighty. We do not have even the positive volition to choose God's grace. We have nothing good in and of ourselves without God putting it there. Grace when translating form Greek (charis) means unmerited favor. This means that it is something that is given with out conditions or without us deserving it. If man were to deserve what God gave us then we wouldn't be getting grace at all, we would be earning what we get, and I don' deserve any of it. SEE 2 Tim. 1:9. So is God forcing us to be His? NOOO. He doesn't have to...He chose to give us the desire to want Him as our Master, just as the dead choose Satan as their master.

Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined, meaning God knows what we will do in advance, but does not determine it.&nbsp; He loves us enough to allow us to make the choice ourselves, even though He knows where we will end up, as He knows all things.

I call this the foreknowledge of God, it is easier to understand. Are you saying that we are good enough to make a choice for God? I don't suppose! I don't see a difference in the words you use up there. I have to point out that we are God's creation and He will do what HE WANTS, and though we may not understand it, it doesn;t really matter what we think. God put people,,,good and bad, where they are for a specific reason (ie. Pharoah, Judas, and even Mary, and Jesus). I used in another post an example of a chess game...God is on one side and Satan on the other...God created chess therefore HE knows the proper moves to make in order to win. Jesus is the broght white knight and Satan is the Dull Black Knight and we God's children are the white pawns and satans children are the black pawns and peices. Some of both sides will be lost along the way , but be sure that the devil is held in Check the entire time by God Almighty. So in other words we know who is going to win the entire time we are playing the game, but we must continue to play until God pulls the old check mate.

(Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God predestined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it, but it does not mean that God determines what we do, etc)

Why does God allow those that will freely choose to send themselves to Hell to be born, if He loves us all?&nbsp;

(Matthew 26:24 -&nbsp;The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."&nbsp; Jesus said it would be better for Judas to have never been born, for example. )

Who knows why God does the things HE does? I don't, but I could never question it, because I know that He has HIS children in mind and their best interest. We are God's fellow workers, and He loves us, but despite the fact that He is a God of love, we must not leave out that He is also a God of Wrath that will take his vengeance upon a rebellious people. The reason He is able to send us to Hell is because they were able to reject Him throughout their lives. IT's saf, but true. How could we do that to Him?

FOMWatts<><

 

[Dewjunkie]

God wants us to love Him by our choice. If God did not allow evil into the world, then we would all love Him because we didn't know any better. that wouldn't be personal, that would be default.

You could kidnap someone, hold them at gunpoint and force them to say "I love you". You could lavish them with gifts as long as they said "I love you". You could not pull the trigger to end their life as long as they said "I love you'. Would they really love you or just say it to receive the gifts and save their life? Would them SAYING "I love you" mean anything to you, or would you want them to truly love you because of who you are?

God wants us to love Him because of who He is. If He didn't give us the option to choose otherwise, it would be coerced, and untrue. I'm certain it breaks His heart any time someone goes to hell. But He does not send them there, they choose it. And to stop someone from being born because He knows they might not choose Him would completely negate His giving mankind free will. God knows all of our days, and He knows all of the opportunities we will have throughout our life to reach out and accept Him. He hopes we will take advantage of one of them, by our choice.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
God wants us to love Him by our choice. If God did not allow evil into the world, then we would all love Him because we didn't know any better. that wouldn't be personal, that would be default.

You could kidnap someone, hold them at gunpoint and force them to say "I love you". You could lavish them with gifts as long as they said "I love you". You could not pull the trigger to end their life as long as they said "I love you'. Would they really love you or just say it to receive the gifts and save their life? Would them SAYING "I love you" mean anything to you, or would you want them to truly love you because of who you are?

God wants us to love Him because of who He is. If He didn't give us the option to choose otherwise, it would be coerced, and untrue. I'm certain it breaks His heart any time someone goes to hell. But He does not send them there, they choose it. And to stop someone from being born because He knows they might not choose Him would completely negate His giving mankind free will. God knows all of our days, and He knows all of the opportunities we will have throughout our life to reach out and accept Him. He hopes we will take advantage of one of them, by our choice.

Ok, so the "bad" people are allowed to be born so that they can show the "good" people that there is a "bad" side, and thus, the "good" people will choose to love God?

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Are you calling God unfair or unjust? Just wondering! Why queation the reason that God does things? We aren't capable of understanding God, and we do not think alike (God and man).

FOMWatts<><

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by FOMWatts<><
Are you calling God unfair or unjust? Just wondering! Why queation the reason that God does things? We aren't capable of understanding God, and we do not think alike (God and man).

FOMWatts<><

I am calling Him neither, why do you assume such a horrible thing?

I am seeking wisdom, since He wants me to love Him with all of my MIND, as well.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I wasn't accusing I was trying to understand your post I am glad to hear that you aren't It's good to seek wisdom! I hope you find what you are looking for. I'm sorry if you thought I was assuming thoruhg my question, I promise that wasn't my intent.

FOMWatts<><

 

[Dewjunkie]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, so the "bad" people are allowed to be born so that they can show the "good" people that there is a "bad" side, and thus, the "good" people will choose to love God?

s0uljah,

I'm having a bit of difficulty seeing how you gathered your statement from the context of my&nbsp;post.&nbsp; Please elaborate, I'd be happy to discuss this further.&nbsp; Thanks.&nbsp;

&nbsp;