Self-Deceit and Legalism

[Soyeong]

The Apostle Paul pits faith against works. He doesn't allow for intermingling the two.

One *either* has faith in Christ's works — or his own.

Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31, that our faith upholds God's law, so while he pitted faith against works of the law, he never pitting faith against God's law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4, so he equated the righteous who are living by faith with those who are living in obedience to God's law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is what putting our faith in Christ's works looks like, which is also why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so it a presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that only God in the flesh could do. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. How can one be disciplined to do something that is not possible?

Do you sin?

 

[Soyeong]

Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-20 presents it as a choice and as a possibility, not as the need to be sinless. Thinking that we need to be sinless makes God out to be an unloving Father who essentially gave the law in order to curse His children when in reality, He is a loving Father who gave the law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that being without sin is not a requirement for us. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), but if we didn't still sin, then there would be nothing left to complete on that day. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so thinking that we need to be without sin denies that there is anyone who has ever loved God and denying that they are not burdensome.

 

[Hammster]

Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-20 presents it as a choice and as a possibility, not as the need to be sinless. Thinking that we need to be sinless makes God out to be an unloving Father who essentially gave the law in order to curse His children when in reality, He is a loving Father who gave the law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that being without sin is not a requirement for us. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), but if we didn't still sin, then there would be nothing left to complete on that day. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so thinking that we need to be without sin denies that there is anyone who has ever loved God and denying that they are not burdensome.

Again, do you sin?

 

[Soyeong]

Again, do you sin?

I've answered that.

 

[Hammster]

I've answered that.

Then you are in agreement with me.

 

[Soyeong]

Then you are in agreement with me.

No, I've demonstrated from Scripture that it is possible to obey God's law and that the issue of whether I sin is irrelevant to the point.

 

[Hammster]

No, I've demonstrated from Scripture that it is possible to obey God's law and that the issue of whether I sin is irrelevant to the point.

Then why aren’t you sinless?

 

[Soyeong]

Then why aren’t you sinless?

He who began a good work in us wi be faithful to complete on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), so the reason I am not sinless is not because I can't obey God's law, but because I have not yet been made to be sinless. Thankfully we are able to repent if we sin, so we don't need to be sinless.

 

[Hammster]

He who began a good work in us wi be faithful to complete on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), so the reason I am not sinless is not because I can't obey God's law, but because I have not yet been made to be sinless. Thankfully we are able to repent if we sin, so we don't need to be sinless.

What is your disagreement with me?

 

[Soyeong]

What is your disagreement with me?

You claimed that only one Person has obeyed the commands, which is contrary to verses that say that we can obey it and that God's commandments aren't burdensome. Only one person has been sinless, but countless people have obeyed God's law. Have you never loved your neighbor?

 

[Hammster]

You claimed that only one Person has obeyed the commands, which is contrary to verses that say that we can obey it and that God's commandments aren't burdensome. Only one person has been sinless, but countless people have obeyed God's law. Have you never loved your neighbor?

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
— James 2:10

It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned. What matters is the One who kept the law perfectly.

 

[Studyman]

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
— James 2:10

It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned. What matters is the One who kept the law perfectly.

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

The point of James isn't that we can't submit to the Righteousness of God, or that we shouldn't strive to be part of the Children of Obedience. His point is we are guilty if we judge one of God's Laws are worthy of our respect and honor, but Judge another of God's Law as unworthy of our respect and honor.

This is why it is important to post the context of the verses, as opposed to picking a verse here and there to promote a religious philosophy.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What James is saying aligns perfectly with 100% of the Holy Scriptures.

Your statement that James is furthering a certain religious belief, namely "It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned" is not what James is saying here at all. He is saying just the opposite.

We are to be God's Children in humility and Faith, not a Judge of HIS Word's.

 

[Soyeong]

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
— James 2:10

It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned. What matters is the One who kept the law perfectly.

In James 2:1-11, it says nothing about justification. James was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to be sinless because that would have already been too late, and he was not trying to discourage them from obeying God's law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying the law more consistently. Even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their justification by it because it was never given for that purpose.

In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through sinless obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for everyone who believes, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming justified. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was justified by grace through faith in the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming justified by obeying His law when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by grace through faith was already in place, so His law was never given for that purpose.

The one who kept the law perfectly set an example for us to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

 

[Hammster]

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

The point of James isn't that we can't submit to the Righteousness of God, or that we shouldn't strive to be part of the Children of Obedience. His point is we are guilty if we judge one of God's Laws are worthy of our respect and honor, but Judge another of God's Law as unworthy of our respect and honor.

This is why it is important to post the context of the verses, as opposed to picking a verse here and there to promote a religious philosophy.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What James is saying aligns perfectly with 100% of the Holy Scriptures.

Your statement that James is furthering a certain religious belief, namely "It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned" is not what James is saying here at all. He is saying just the opposite.

We are to be God's Children in humility and Faith, not a Judge of HIS Word's.

What was the context of my post?

 

[Hammster]

In James 2:1-11, it says nothing about justification. James was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to be sinless because that would have already been too late, and he was not trying to discourage them from obeying God's law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying the law more consistently. Even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their justification by it because it was never given for that purpose.

In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through sinless obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for everyone who believes, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming justified. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was justified by grace through faith in the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming justified by obeying His law when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by grace through faith was already in place, so His law was never given for that purpose.

The one who kept the law perfectly set an example for us to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

My point, in regards to the post I quoted, is that it doesn’t matter how well we keep the law. When we fail in one part, we fail in the whole thing. So it doesn’t matter how well you obey God’s law, unless you obey it perfectly. Which we cannot do. But we have Someone who has.

 

[Studyman]

What was the context of my post?

I was replying to your words from your post.

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
— James 2:10

It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned. What matters is the One who kept the law perfectly."

When one posts the next sentence from James, it is clear that he wasn't promoting the idea or religious philosophy that "it doesn't matter how much of God's law we keep, as far as justification is concerned". James was clearly speaking about judging God's Law.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

God's Children should not be "transgressors of God's Law", judging one any more relevant that another.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

We won't be judged by what Jesus did, but by what we do.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Soyeong]

My point, in regards to the post I quoted, is that it doesn’t matter how well we keep the law. When we fail in one part, we fail in the whole thing. So it doesn’t matter how well you obey God’s law, unless you obey it perfectly. Which we cannot do. But we have Someone who has.

If we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience, which was precisely what James was encouraging them to do. His point had nothing to do with saying that it doesn't matter how well we keep the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and do a better job of obeying the law more consistently because it does matter. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never an expectation or a requirement for us, so while our goal should be to obey the law perfectly because we love God and have faith in Him to guide us, there is nothing that we fail to earn if we fail to do that. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what Christ taught by word and by example even though we don't manage to do it perfectly.

 

[Hammster]

I was replying to your words from your post.

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
— James 2:10

It doesn’t matter how much law we keep, as far as justification is concerned. What matters is the One who kept the law perfectly."

When one posts the next sentence from James, it is clear that he wasn't promoting the idea or religious philosophy that "it doesn't matter how much of God's law we keep, as far as justification is concerned". James was clearly speaking about judging God's Law.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

God's Children should not be "transgressors of God's Law", judging one any more relevant that another.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

We won't be judged by what Jesus did, but by what we do.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

What was the context of my post? It wasn’t posted as an OP.

 

[Hammster]

If we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and to return to obedience, which was precisely what James was encouraging them to do. His point had nothing to do with saying that it doesn't matter how well we keep the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and do a better job of obeying the law more consistently because it does matter. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never an expectation or a requirement for us, so while our goal should be to obey the law perfectly because we love God and have faith in Him to guide us, there is nothing that we fail to earn if we fail to do that. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what Christ taught by word and by example even though we don't manage to do it perfectly.

They are possible to obey. And only One Person did it perfectly.