Selective Service

If the draft were instituted, what would you do?

  • Go to War

  • Go to Canada

  • Go to Jail

  • I don't know


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fieldsofwind

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What is so interesting is how so many don't understand the sacrifices that were made for them. And, if they don't think it was for them, then they may just want to visit an encampment of troops one day. Ask them why they are there. Now, the man in the fire of combat is fighting for the men with him, but the overall purpose isn't to just go on a trip to some foreign land and meet the locals.

Also, the double-standards are incredible

FOW
 
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Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Posted by strathyboy: "And on a side note, why should you care only for the needs of your friends? Should you love your enemy, or blow him up? I think that's the point people are trying to make here: that loving one's enemy seems to be blatantly contradictory to war."

Loving one's enemies does not mean that one should allow them to rape, pillage, and kill the citizens of one's country or another's country just because they feel like invading. (Or flying planes into buildings, etc.)

I agree. But the issue we are discussing is hardly a black and white one. Iraq is not raping and pillaging other nations, most especially America. The US is proposing War against Iraq for something they haven't done yet with something nobody can prove they have. That is not loving anyone.
If it were a simple matter of one country invading another, where one nation is clearly the "bad guy" and the other clearly the "good guy" then I would agree with you, but unfortunately life is rarely that simple.

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
The perfect example of this is how God loves all (including his angels of the past, I presume!) and yet His justice is very prevalent concerning men and angels. Justice is not absent intertwined with love. You may not understand it, but think of it this way: If I see a man being beaten in an alley, and yet do nothing to stop his attackers with whatever means necessary, then how much do I really care about that victim?

Yes, if I see someone being beaten in an alley, I will help that person. In the case of the war on Iraq, that analogy is not relevant. Iraq isn't beating on anyone. Whether or not invading Iraq is justice depends on where you live and how you view things. It is not black and white in this case.

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Also, those cops should just let the criminals roam the streets because they are suppose to love them, no? See, and I guarantee that the cop that shows up at your door will have a side-arm with him. He won't come with a box of chocolates.

You seem to be implying (A) that the United States can and should be the world's police and (B) that the issue of Iraq is black and white, cut and dry, they are bad, we are good. Unfortunately neither is necessarily true.
A police officer arresting a criminal is justice. What the US is doing right now does not seem like justice to me. Perhaps you should choose a better example, since the police one is not really applicable.
 
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coastie

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It's amazing how topics regarding the US government always turn into US vs. Iraq.

Let's try and get back on topic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About Selective service, I was honored to sign up for SS when I turned 18, but my mom was adimately against it.

THere hasn't been a draft in effect in thrity years, and with the size of the military right now, it would be quite a jump to say that it's coming back anytime soon.

I can see where it would appear to some that it is a violation of our rights, however, the back bone of our rights is our ability to uphold them. It's really give and take to maintain your rights in this Country. However, in other countries that some consider to be more progressive than the US, a two year obligation to serve in the military regardless of sex is a reality to many young adults.

I pray that we never need to draft in this country again, and I pray that those of you who object to the selective service requirement are never put in a position in which you must be drafted to do something that you object to.

It's a mean ol' world out there, and selective service is the first realization for many young adults that there are things, bad things, that will happen in your life that you cannot control.
 
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Originally posted by coastie
It's amazing how topics regarding the US government always turn into US vs. Iraq.

My apologies. Since part of this discussion was on the present day, and any draft today would likely be for a war in the middle east, I simply used those as examples to try to demonstrate my point.
 
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coastie

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Originally posted by strathyboy
My apologies. Since part of this discussion was on the present day, and any draft today would likely be for a war in the middle east, I simply used those as examples to try to demonstrate my point.

No worries. I wasn't pointing the finger at you personally. I was just trying to get the conversation back on track. :)
 
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fieldsofwind

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Posted by strathyboy: "Iraq is not raping and pillaging other nations, most especially America."

Strathyboy, come on. So, you don't think that Iraq has attempted to invade other countries that were unable to defend themselves before? And, if they have (and they have), then in what way is that different from the criminal that breaks into your home. I think that they are very much the same, and in that case, the U.S. coming to the rescue is very much like the police officer coming to stop the criminal after being called.

Posted by strathyboy: "The US is proposing War against Iraq for something they haven't done yet with something nobody can prove they have."

Strathyboy, once again, if you are recieving the intelligence briefs gathered by very courageous peolpe on the ground all over the world, then I would love to hear about them. Also, if you work at the NSA building in Maryland(?) then I would enjoy hearing about that too. You see, you have no idea whether Iraq or others have or are in the process of planning death and destruction for U.S. assets around the world. (Assets always mean lives.)

Posted by strathyboy: "You seem to be implying (A) that the United States can and should be the world's police and (B) that the issue of Iraq is black and white, cut and dry, they are bad, we are good."

Well, yes, we have been the "police" there twice now with Afghanistan and Iraq. And, yes, there was a good guy, and a bad guy. It was very obvious, at least I think most people saw it that way. If you think that we were beating up on helpless nomads in the mountains, then you should read some of the stories pertaining to the fire-fights there. If you think that it served no purpose, well... I have no proof for you... but I wouldn't be suprised if there would have been other nasty things in store for the U.S. coming from that way if we hadn't intervened.

No, the world is not always black and white. However, if you always wait until it is, then you will most likely end up getting the short end of the stick. I will do everything I can to make sure that the children, families, etc. throughout America do not get the short end of the stick again. Especially if it means WMD's.

take care

FOW
 
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coastie

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FYI you may choose to continue this discussion on this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/28942.html

but not in the selective service thread. Selective service is a great topic, but let's not allow it to be hi-jacked by US vs. Iraq discussion.

Please, let's get back on track.


Zach
 
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cenimo

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Having reread every post here, and considering the OP and the poll, what we are seeing is a few, "Yes, if called I'd serve my country" , or. "I served my country" answers overshadowed by a whole bunch of trying to dig for examples from history and present day situations as to why people think they shouldn't have to go.

A true conscientious objector serves in a non-combatant role, as many have done.


As for the Bible references to this, look up "oppressed" on a bible search, both OT and Nt tell us to assist, to come to the aid, to defende the oppressed...

gee, just imagine, De Opresso Liber - free the oppressed...is the motto of U.S. Army Special Forces
 
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fin

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"A true conscientious objector serves in a non-combatant role, as many have done."

I do not agree. Some may but certainly not all. I refuse to participate in war in any way. My objection comes from being pacifist. I posted it before but here it is again, a quote from Einstein on pacifism:

"There are two ways of resisting war: the legal way and the revolutionary way. The legal way involves the offer of alternatinve service not as a privilege for a few but as a right for all. The revolutionary view involves an uncompromising resistance, with a view to breaking the power of militarism in time of peace or the resources of the state in time of war."

I feel it is my ethical, moral, and religious responsibility to stop war and violence.
 
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Evangelion

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Wolseley -

The two who served in Europe were both of the opinion that while the British troops were valiant soldiers, Bernard Montgomery was bumbling fool who couldn't fight his way out of a paper sack.

Monty was loved and respected by his men, and he showed himself to be a cautious, methodical and positively brilliant commander. Historians have found little fault with him, and I certainly have no quarrel with the man.

BTW, just for the record, the man I admire most out of all the WWII commanders, is Rommel. If Hitler had not weakened him by starving him of supplies and equipment, I believe that the Germans would never have lost Africa. In his own theatre, Rommel was arguably the most dangerous man of WWII.

My father had high regard for the Australians in India, but lesser regard for the British.

I appreciate your father's esteem for the Aussies, but I do think he's selling the Brits a bit short. Still, that is his prerogative.

Considering the state of public education in the United States these days, the average American is unlikely to know that World War II happened.

Yes, well... say no more. ;)

None. At the time, if you recall, there were only 48 stars.

Nope, I don't recall. I'm not familiar with the finer points of US history, so you have the clear advantage here. Thanks for the correction. :)

I submit that battles such as Peleliu, where the United States incurred more than 10,000 casualties in less than two and a half months (on a tiny island 7 miles long and 2 miles wide), Okinawa, where 36 American ships were sunk by kamikazes and 400 more were damaged, and 9,724 U.S. sailors were killed or wounded---while advances on shore were measured in yards per day, say otherwise.

Sad statistics indeed; but still a drop in the ocean when compared with Europe.

And those war crimes might be...????

Hiroshima & Nagasaki. (But I accept that you don't see them as war crimes.)

Rather than tougher, much, much more lenient. The Treaty of Versailles was a master stroke of stupidity on a gigantic scale. Germany never should have been required to carry the full cost of WWI, and they certanly never should have had the economic retraints placed on them that they did. The resulting hardship virtually guaranteed that the next generation of Germans were more than willing to listen to the first nut who promised to improve their lot---and that nut just happened to be a little Austrian Gefreiter with a funny mustache.

As for America's "negligible contribution" in World War II, we'll have to agree to disagree about that.

I think we'll have to argee to disagree on quite a lot of it. ;)

But I thank you for the discussion, and I apologise for having roused your ire. :cool:
 
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Angel75

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Originally posted by chickenman
I don't understand why you'd automatically obey the government of your country if it told you to go and fight for it in a war.
I think every citizen has the right to question whether the war is just or neccessary - i'm not suggesting that war isn't ever neccessary - and I agree that you should help to defend your country - but unquestioning patriotism is a dangerous mindset that hitler exploited to instigate WWII. If you were a german in the 1930s, would you have objected to fighting in the war the german government started?

&nbsp;

my opinion exactly chicken man. Blind patriotism is irresponsible and well, moronic. If it is a just war, that I believe in, I may fight. But justdoing it because I owe it??nope.
 
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Gunny

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"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protestor to burn the flag."
- Charles M. Province
 
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Evangelion

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Mr Province is living in fantasy land.

It is the government which grants all of these rights, and it is the government which has the power to repeal any or all of them at its own discretion.

Just a reality check, for those who believe otherwise... :cool:
 
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Wolseley

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Monty was loved and respected by his men, and he showed himself to be a cautious, methodical and positively brilliant commander. Historians have found little fault with him, and I certainly have no quarrel with the man.
Many historians have found him to be too cautious and too methodical; the long, drawn-out, costly, and eventually ineffectual Operation Market-Garden in 1944 was Monty's brainchild, and it was not much....oddly, to give him his due, it was the exact opposite of his brilliant campaign at El Alamein. By and large, however, his style of strategic management would have caused more casualties and lengthened the war considerably. That is my opinion, and the opinion of various other historians; your mileage may vary.
BTW, just for the record, the man I admire most out of all the WWII commanders, is Rommel. If Hitler had not weakened him by starving him of supplies and equipment, I believe that the Germans would never have lost Africa. In his own theatre, Rommel was arguably the most dangerous man of WWII.
If Rommel had been given free reign, there is no doubt he would have caused some damage. Hitler (who was almost as poor a strategist as Montgomery) insisted on micro-managing things from Berlin, however, and therein lay his mistake. In my own humble opinion, the most brilliant strategist in the entire war was undoubtably Isoruku Yamamoto; the man was a naval genius, a Japanese Nelson.
Nope, I don't recall. I'm not familiar with the finer points of US history, so you have the clear advantage here. Thanks for the correction.
The war, of course, ended in 1945; the United States then consisted of 48 States and ergo 48 stars. The 49th and 50th stars were added in 1960 with the admission of the Territories of Alaska and Hawaii as full-fledged States. :)
Hiroshima & Nagasaki. (But I accept that you don't see them as war crimes.)
You're correct. I wrote a rather lengthy paper on this when I was in college. Some pertinent points:

1. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of war, which were preceeded by warnings and notifications of impending action by the United States. We warned the Japanese by every medium available that we were going to use a drastic new weapon unless they agreed to surrender.

Pearl Harbor, on the other hand, was done without notification and without a declared state of war.

2. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are considered by some to be "war crimes" simply because they involved the use of atomic weapons. The yield of the weapons was relatively small (about 14 to 20 kilotons) and in fact caused fewer casualties than the conventional firebombings of Tokyo, Yokohama, or Dresden.

3. Hiroshima was not without military value; it was the headquarters of the Japanese 2nd Army, which was vaporized in the explosion. Nagasaki was only hit because it was a secondary target; the primary target (Korkura, site of a large army base and weapons-production facility) was clouded over, and another site had to be chosen. The bomb had to be dropped because at that point, nobody had ever attempted to land with an atomic bomb in the bomb bay before, and in the event of a crash, nobody was quite sure what would happen. Ditching it was also out of the question---it was way too expensive and way too effective to just throw away; and at that point, it took months to build the things.

As it turned out, Nagasaki also was clouded over by the time the aircraft got there, but they were low on fuel and didn't have any options left. The run was made by radar and the bomb missed its aiming point by two miles. The destructive effectiveness was primarily due to the plutonium bomb's greater yield (20 kilotons) as opposed to the Hiroshima bomb's uranium yield of 14 kilotons.
But I thank you for the discussion, and I apologise for having roused your ire.
Oh, I'm not ired at all. I may disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I'm angry, or anything close to it. :)
 
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