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Selective Service

If the draft were instituted, what would you do?

  • Go to War

  • Go to Canada

  • Go to Jail

  • I don't know


Results are only viewable after voting.

fin

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"You seem to think that the robber is "evil" but saddam or bin laden or their conterparts around the world are not."

I never said that the robber is evil; nor did I say that Saddam and bin Laden are not evil. War and domestic violence are different, thus they have different solutions. That was my argument.

I believe that history argues the case for pacifism far better than I can. If you are convinced that it is hypocritical then that is fine. Hypocritical or not, pacifism has still proven to be far more effective then war and violence.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

This was a very big story here 2 days ago & I thought that you might find it interesting.
_____

This is from yesterday's Haaretz newspaper:

High Court rejects 'selective' refusal to serve in
territories

By Moshe Gorali and Jonathan Lis

The High Court of Justice yesterday rejected the petition of eight Israel Defense
Forces reservists, soldiers and officers, who refused to serve in the territories
for reasons of conscience.

A panel of three justices - including Supreme Court President Aharon Barak,
Dorit Beinisch and Ayala Procaccia - ruled that selective conscientious objection
could be recognized because "it would weaken the ties that bind us as a
nation."

The 12-page verdict said: "Yesterday, there was opposition to serving in
Lebanon; today, the opposition is to serving in Judea and Samaria; and
tomorrow, there will be opposition to evacuating settlement outposts."

The justices warned that "the people's army is liable to turn into an army in
which every unit acts according to its own particular conscience."

The eight petitioners - David Zonsheine, Rami Kaplan, Uri Fein, Ramah
Shaham, Maor Persa'i, Uri Meimon, Udi Elipentz, and Yaniv Itzkowitz - belong to
Courage to Refuse, a group of reserve soldiers who refuse to serve in the
territories. They are not classic conscientious objectors, as they are willing to
serve in the military inside Israel.

Indeed, all were called up for reserve service and appeared at their bases, but
refused to go across the Green Line into the territories.

Founded in January, the group has since grown to 512 members. The
signatories have vowed they will "not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders
in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people."

With the decision, lead petitioner First Lieutenant (res.) David Zonsheine will
return to jail for three weeks.

To return to prison "is the best and most important duty a soldier in the army can
perform today for Israel," Zonsheine said after the ruling.

"Our refusal to serve in the occupied territories is the most Jewish and Zionistic
ideal that can be upheld in this situation," he added.

Link: <http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y>
_____

Here is The Jerusalem Post's story:

Court rejects petition by soldiers refusing to serve in territories

Dan Izenberg
Dec. 31, 2002

The High Court of Justice on Monday rejected a petition by eight reservists who have refused to serve in the West Bank and
Gaza Strip on moral grounds, declaring that the defense minister had the right to order them to serve and to punish them if they
refused.

The petition was submitted by attorneys Avigdor Feldman and Michael Sfard on behalf of eight soldiers who have been
sentenced to jail by military disciplinary courts. The petitioners were David Zonshain, Rami Kaplan, Uri Fein, Romach Shaham,
Maor Parsai, Uri Tocker-Maimon, Udi Eliphantz, and Yaniv Itzkovich.

Zonshain was allowed out of military prison to attend the hearing. Afterward, he told reporters, "For 11 years I have served in
the IDF as a paratroop officer, and it is a great privilege for me to do so. In the light of today's court decision, I will have the
great privilege of serving in Military Prison No. 6. I think this is the best and most serious military service one can perform in the
army today. It is the most Zionist and the most Jewish act and the only right one under these circumstances."

The justices rejected the concept of selective conscientious objection, that is, the refusal to serve in specific circumstances as
opposed to pacifism, which is recognized as legitimate by the army.

Supreme Court President Aharon Barak and Justices Dorit Beinisch and Ayala Procaccia ruled that although both types of
refusal to serve are based on moral considerations and conscience, the impact of selective refusal is more damaging to the state.

"In a society as pluralistic as ours, recognition of selective conscientious objection might loosen the links that hold us together as
a people," Barak wrote. "Yesterday, the objection was to serving in southern Lebanon. Today, the objection is to serving in
Judea and Samaria. Tomorrow, the objection will be to evacuating the outposts in the territories. The army of the people might
turn into the army of [different] peoples, made up of different units, each of which has its own areas where it may operate and
other areas where, for reasons of conscience, it may not."

Barak added that if selective conscientious objection were allowed, it would be increasingly difficult to determine when a
soldier's refusal was based on moral considerations and when it had to do with his political or ideological point of view.

Asked why he believed his refusal was different from those of soldiers who will not obey orders to remove illegal outposts in
the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Zonshain replied: "There is a big difference. The refusal to remove outposts is based on
ideological and messianic considerations, whereas our refusal is based on universal values."

Link: <http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1041223904026>
_____

Comments?

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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lithium.

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I'm replying to the OP. I don't know what I do I'm not scared to fight for my country, but I don't think I could kill someone enemy or not I just don't think I could take a life. If I had a choice what branch of military I could join it would probably be the Air Force, or Navy. I have been thinking about joining the FBI. I have a friend that works for the FBI and I think I would like it.
 
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lithium.

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Originally posted by cenimo
seesaw

The days of relative safety in the Air Force or Navy are gone...

also, how could you feel you couldn't take a life but yet consider working for the FBI? - unless you're talking about accounting or something

Well the thing I would to do in the FBI is (I can't remember the name) where I would be helping find criminal hackers, and other bad people on the Internet.
 
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Wolseley

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That's the perfect career for a serviceman, too, cenimo, but you and I both know that's impossible. :)

You're right about the relative safety in the Air Force being gone. Even when I was in twenty years ago, we were seeing more and more Combat Controller-type training as the AF started to pull its own infantry-style deep-insertion security duties instead of depending on Army or Marine troops to do it for them. My nephew, who served in the Gulf War as a computer specialist (de-coding and re-coding fire orders for AWACS aircraft) was under constant threat of fire from Iraqi aircraft and missiles....and a computer specialist is about as un-infantry as you can get.

There seems to be a synthesis going on between various branches of the service; in previous wars, branches like the Navy and Air Force were seen as "safe" because ships were at sea and airbases were located in friendly areas.....but today, possibly due to advanced technology and rapid personnel transport, you're just as likely to see an airman or a SEAL involved in a land firefight as you are a soldier or a gyrene.
 
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cenimo

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Wols


One of the most demoralizing days in the entrie Viet Nam conflict was the day a B-52 got shot down...everytime they flew over, we'd be pounding the trail and as we all took our turns "hopping in a cascade fashion" from the reprecussions of their bombing runs, we'd think at least somebody is safe.... (you'd see an entire patrol "hop" up and down, one by one, as the bombs landed miles away)

I guess everything is indeed relative....I remember watching stuff from Desert Storm about a Patriot Missile crew and thinking they "had it made"...

That's for sure about the services Wols, diffeent kind of warfare... no one is "safe"...... imagine the IDF ....
 
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alonesoldier

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I am in the Army right now. I don't believe in bringing back the draft but I am in favor of mandatory service after highschool. In a democratic republic that is run by the people, I do not think an american citizen has the right to abstain from war unless it violates their religious beliefs.
 
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cenimo

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alonesoldier
I am in the Army right now. I don't believe in bringing back the draft but I am in favor of mandatory service after highschool. In a democratic republic that is run by the people, I do not think an american citizen has the right to abstain from war unless it violates their religious beliefs.

...and if the draft comes back, the JW's and Mennonites,Amis, &nbsp;Quakers&nbsp; and others will get lots of new membrs, not out of any religious convictions, either...
 
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Gunny

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I enlisted in the USMC during the Vietnam War when the draft was active. I served my country in the USMC for a period of ten years three of which I spent in Vietnam.

I would have stayed in the Corps longer had not I suffered a back injury.

I believe some individuals are well suited for the service and many, many are not.

I didn't agree with college students being deferred from the draft during the Vietnam War.

I have two sons who chose not to serve in the military and I supported their choice.

I come from a long line of men that seved these United States in the USMC.


GySgt James
 
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troodon

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My friends and I discussed the draft at school today. One kid and I decided if we felt America was actually in danger we would enlist before being drafted but otherwise we would merely go along with the draft. My 5 other friends in the discussion decided they'd bail to Canada and if we were at war with them then Switzerland...
 
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IslandBreeze

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Originally posted by alonesoldier
I am in the Army right now. I don't believe in bringing back the draft but I am in favor of mandatory service after highschool. In a democratic republic that is run by the people, I do not think an american citizen has the right to abstain from war unless it violates their religious beliefs.

Well, as an American living in a Democracy, I don't want to be in the military. I respect those who serve, and hold them in the utmost, but I don't want any part of it. Forcing people to serve in the military? Ever hear of Hitler? The Communist party? It's just a bad idea.
 
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Blindfaith

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ocean ~ are you being serious?

Do you not think that America is being threatened with terrorism?&nbsp;

I'm flat-out speechless right now.&nbsp; **bf shakes her head in wonderment**

By the by ~ I voted I'd 'go to war', meaning I'd serve.&nbsp; I'm not sure what they'd do with a 36 yr old female, but I'm sure there's something I could do to help.&nbsp; And I would.&nbsp;&nbsp;I enjoy the freedoms of this country, and feel it's only right to give something back.&nbsp; What did JFK say?

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".

Perfect.
 
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