Seems Pretty Clear

[PinkTulip]

While we're at it — must I also believe that the world was created in seven literal days; in a literal Adam and Eve; that Eve got into a conversation with a talking snake who persuaded Eve to eat some fruit and that's how sin arrived in the world; and that the reason we have so many different languages today is because a windstorm blew down a 480 foot ziggurat in the Middle East?

Should I believe in dragons, as described in Isaiah and Revelation? How about sea monsters? A flat Earth? That the sun and the moon and the stars were hung in the sky? That the sun and the moon stopped moving for an entire day (because, of course, we all know the Earth does not rotate on its axis, but the sun and moon go around the Earth) so Joshua could win a battle?

You tell me. After all, I'm the "heathen liberal."

Uber,

How do you decide what is literal or not? You know, men usually do not rise from the dead, walk on water, etc etc...

 

[Polycarp1]

OK, bypassing all the Talmud, Early Church Fathers, quotes from Helminiak and Boswell, arguments about literalism, and all the other stuff that has been posted a thousand times over, let me ask this, DMagoh:

Why did Paul write the words he put in Romans 1:27? What was his purpose in saying what he said? That "it's true" is not an acceptable answer -- so is "Elijah went down to Mount Horeb" and "Jesus calmed the waters" but they're not appropriate to Paul's argument. That he's condemning the sin of homosexuality is literally "begging the question" -- assuming as true what you set out to prove. I want to know, specifically, why Paul wrote that particular verse in that particular context in that particular part of that particular letter.

And I'm not asking that question out of an intent to indulge in one-upsmanship on you -- I suspect we might just be able to get further towards a mutual understanding if we explore the question of context -- one of the few parts of this argument we seem to be in agreement on.

So please, kindly play along with that approach to exegesis here.

 

[DMagoh]

While we're at it — must I also believe that the world was created in seven literal days; in a literal Adam and Eve; that Eve got into a conversation with a talking snake who persuaded Eve to eat some fruit and that's how sin arrived in the world; and that the reason we have so many different languages today is because a windstorm blew down a 480 foot ziggurat in the Middle East?

Should I believe in dragons, as described in Isaiah and Revelation? How about sea monsters? A flat Earth? That the sun and the moon and the stars were hung in the sky? That the sun and the moon stopped moving for an entire day (because, of course, we all know the Earth does not rotate on its axis, but the sun and moon go around the Earth) so Joshua could win a battle?

Just a question. Not saying He did, but IF God can raise His Son from the dead, dont you think He COULD do all those things you just described above?

You tell me. After all, I'm the "heathen liberal."

You just put that label on yourself, I have NEVER said that and NEVER will.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Polycarp1,

Why did Paul write the words he put in Romans 1:27? What was his purpose in saying what he said? That "it's true" is not an acceptable answer -

Why not? Of course its acceptable if one believes Paul received his revelation from Jesus and not from man Galatians 1. It is as true as Jesus sermon on the mount, we trust the accounts; unlike Paul, Luke perhaps never encountered the risen Lord.

I want to know, specifically, why Paul wrote that particular verse in that particular context in that particular part of that particular letter.

I dont quite see your point, Paul says that God gave them over to idolotry, and God gave them over to same-sex sex, and Paul also writes that God gave them over to greed, malice etc. There are no condictions on any of these. I might listen if you said Paul was only condeming same-sex sex, idolotry, greed and malice etc, under certain circumstances, but as it doesnt say anything about certain circumstances anyway the least I would want to see is where scritpure countennaces idolotry, same-sex sex, greed and malice.

So please, kindly play along with that approach to exegesis here.

I think your question is eisegesis as there is no mention of any condition in the sins listed in Romans 1

 

[UberLutheran]

Just a question. Not saying He did, but IF God can raise His Son from the dead, dont you think He COULD do all those things you just described above?

You tell me, DMagoh.

Do you believe the world was created in seven literal, 24-hour days?

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Do you believe that Eve got into a conversation with a literal talking snake who convinced Eve to eat some fruit and that's how sin entered into the world?

Do you believe that a 480-foot ziggurat crashed to the ground during a windstorm and that's why we have a plethora of languages?

Do you believe in dragons?

Do you believe in sea monsters?

Do you believe that the sun, the moon and the stars were hung in the sky?

Do you believe the earth has four corners?

Do you believe the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars revolve around the earth?

Do you believe that the sun and the moon stopped revolving around the earth for a day so that Joshua could win a battle?

You just put that label on yourself, I have NEVER said that and NEVER will.

Maybe not using those exact words, but here are some things you HAVE said:

YOU have not attempted to carry on a discussion with these people or you would know what I am talking about. They are not questioning and wondering - they are militant homosexuals that are trying to convince young men who ARE questioning and wondering that homosexual sex is great in God's eyes.

What I suggest is what the Bible suggests, and that is do everything in my power to turn him/her from the error of their way, even if it takes rebuking....

It HAS been discussed over and over with the same people and they keep making the same comments...

• that verse is only talking about homosexual rapists
• that verse is only talking about homosexual sex in pagan worship
• that verse is only talking about heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex
• that verse is only talking about inhospitality
• that verse is only talking about uncleanliness

They dont want to know the truth.

I know you think you are clever, but Satan was clever in the Garden when he was deceiving Eve, so I wouldnt be particularly proud of that fact.

Typical liberal, you think that just because someone says that homosexual behavior is sin that we dont welcome homosexuals at our church. We call sin what it is, sin...but we welcome everyone. However, they will hear the Truth preached from the pulpit, not some watered down "if it feels good do it" gospel.

 

[DMagoh]

[/color][/b]You tell me, DMagoh.

Do you believe the world was created in seven literal, 24-hour days?

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Do you believe that Eve got into a conversation with a literal talking snake who convinced Eve to eat some fruit and that's how sin entered into the world?

Do you believe that a 480-foot ziggurat crashed to the ground during a windstorm and that's why we have a plethora of languages?

Do you believe in dragons?

Do you believe in sea monsters?

Do you believe that the sun, the moon and the stars were hung in the sky?

Do you believe the earth has four corners?

Do you believe the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars revolve around the earth?

Do you believe that the sun and the moon stopped revolving around the earth for a day so that Joshua could win a battle?
[/color][/b]

Well, you never did answer the question. If He raised His Son from the dead, COULD He do those things?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Well, you never did answer the question. If He raised His Son from the dead, COULD He do those things?

I don't remember the bible saying a lot of these things. Literal Adam and Eve must be true since they are of the line of Jesus. But as far as the young earth position, I certainly don't hold that position or the existence of dragons or monsters I don't see any verses saying anything about that. The speaking of the skane certainly is possible since possesion of an animal can lead to super natural phenomena. The bible says nothing about the earth being flat or the starts and sun being hung of the sky. Where are these liberals getting these things?

Why must they mix the truth with a bunch of misrepresentations?

 

[DMagoh]

Maybe not using those exact words, but here are some things you HAVE said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
YOU have not attempted to carry on a discussion with these people or you would know what I am talking about. They are not questioning and wondering - they are militant homosexuals that are trying to convince young men who ARE questioning and wondering that homosexual sex is great in God's eyes.

The person I was refering to ISNT questioning and wondering, he IS militant, and IS TRYING TO CONVINCE OTHER YOUNG MEN TO GIVE INTO TEMPTATION. If he chose to live his life as a homosexual, that would be one thing, but if he is going to try to make others stumble and sin, then I have no choice but to get involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
What I suggest is what the Bible suggests, and that is do everything in my power to turn him/her from the error of their way, even if it takes rebuking....

So I guess you are criticizing James too, since I quoted him:

19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
It HAS been discussed over and over with the same people and they keep making the same comments...

Is that statement NOT true?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh

• that verse is only talking about homosexual rapists
• that verse is only talking about homosexual sex in pagan worship
• that verse is only talking about heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex
• that verse is only talking about inhospitality
• that verse is only talking about uncleanliness

I am only quoting what he said. Did he NOT say that? If it's not true, just let me know!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
Typical liberal, you think that just because someone says that homosexual behavior is sin that we dont welcome homosexuals at our church. We call sin what it is, sin...but we welcome everyone. However, they will hear the Truth preached from the pulpit, not some watered down "if it feels good do it" gospel.

If you remember, this was in response to your very judgemental and condemning stereotyping of my church. Pot calling kettle?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]You tell me, DMagoh.

Do you believe the world was created in seven literal, 24-hour days? [Maybe, maybe not, A 1000 years is as a watch in the night to God!]

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve? [Why not?]

Do you believe that Eve got into a conversation with a literal talking snake who convinced Eve to eat some fruit and that's how sin entered into the world? [Bible doesn't say snake! It was some kind of creature that stood & was later forced to crawl!]

Do you believe that a 480-foot ziggurat crashed to the ground during a windstorm and that's why we have a plethora of languages? [I have personally seen the wind, i.e. tornadoes, destroy buildings! If memory serves, God who created men and language confounded the language, NOT the wind or the tower!]

Do you believe in dragons? [No! Do you know what the Hebrew word is?]

Do you believe in sea monsters? [No! Do you know what the Hebrew word is?]

Do you believe that the sun, the moon and the stars were hung in the sky? [Verse? Context?]

Do you believe the earth has four corners? [Colloquial expression?]

Do you believe the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars revolve around the earth? [Language of simple observation by men! The Bible is not a treatise on science!]

Do you believe that the sun and the moon stopped revolving around the earth for a day so that Joshua could win a battle? [/SIZE]

I wonder if the God who created the heavens and the earth could refract light? Shoot, I have seen HS kids do that in lab. And the event was observed and recorded by simple unsophisticated men NOT 20th century Physicists.

Speaking of wind destroying things. Not long after, and near where, I was born a bridge know as "Galloping Gerty" was vibrated to pieces by harmonics caused by the wind. There is a video online. Go figger.

I wonder how all this hemming and hawing, bobbing and weaving is supposed to prove that God does not condemn homosexuality?

 

[Brieuse]

I wonder if the God who created the heavens and the earth could refract light? Shoot, I have seen HS kids do that in lab. And the event was observed and recorded by simple unsophisticated men NOT 20th century Physicists.

Speaking of wind destroying things. Not long after, and near where, I was born a bridge know as "Galloping Gerty" was vibrated to pieces by harmonics caused by the wind. There is a video online. Go figger.

I wonder how all this hemming and hawing, bobbing and weaving is supposed to prove that God does not condemn homosexuality?

How does your post address the concepts of a literal view of the Scripture?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,
Surely you mean a literal interpretation of scripture. A literal view would be to see what scripture literally says.
In fact if one doesnt start by reading what scripture literally says, one's interpretation may have nothing to do with the scripture one is supposed to be interpreting.

 

[*Starlight*]

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

Seems like this verse would be prety clear to anyone who didnt have an agenda to justify their lifestyle. Even the great liberal preacher Tony Campolo agrees this verse condemns homosexual behavior. To recap:

• They abandoned natural relations with women;
• They are inflamed in lust for other men;
• They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
• They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.

How can that NOT be clear?

Well, it's clear that it's about people going against their natural sexual orientation.

 

[DMagoh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

Seems like this verse would be prety clear to anyone who didnt have an agenda to justify their lifestyle. Even the great liberal preacher Tony Campolo agrees this verse condemns homosexual behavior. To recap:

• They abandoned natural relations with women;
• They are inflamed in lust for other men;
• They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
• They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.

How can that NOT be clear?

Well, it's clear that it's about people going against their natural sexual orientation.

I dont see any mention of "sexual orientation" in that verse. I dont see any loopholes, any exceptions, any reason for any misunderstanding.

All I see are people who desperately want to live they want to live and wil do anything to justify it, even if it means finding all kinds of wierd ways to reinterpret, eliminate, or make complicated explanations for scripture.

I love you brother, but homosexual sex is sin. It is not a "special" sin, it is a sin just like any other sin. If a brother tried to tell me premarital sex was not sin I would disagree with him as well. Just because you desire something, doesnt make it okay. If sin was not desirable, it would be not be tempting, and it wouldnt be called temptation.

 

[*Starlight*]

I dont see any mention of "sexual orientation" in that verse. I dont see any loopholes, any exceptions, any reason for any misunderstanding.

Well, it's about people who abandon their natural relations. People abandon their natural relations when they try to go against their sexual orientation. For example, a heterosexual having homosexual sex (like in that example from the Bible), or a homosexual having heterosexual sex, is abandoning their natural relations. If a person has always been homosexual, then they haven't abandoned anything.

 

[DMagoh]

Well, it's about people who abandon their natural relations. People abandon their natural relations when they try to go against their sexual orientation. For example, a heterosexual having homosexual sex (like in that example from the Bible), or a homosexual having heterosexual sex, is abandoning their natural relations. If a person has always been homosexual, then they haven't abandoned anything.

So, since I am a man who is attracted to other men, I am sinning because I have sex with a woman?

 

[*Starlight*]

So, since I am a man who is attracted to other men, I am sinning because I have sex with a woman?

Well, since you're married to a woman, then I guess you're bisexual. If you and your wife love each other, then I don't see why it would be a sin.

 

[MrPirate]

Well, it's clear that it's about people going against their natural sexual orientation.

LOL!

You are right…this verse means its wrong for gays and lesbians to pretend or try to be straight

 

[DMagoh]

LOL!

You are right…this verse means its wrong for gays and lesbians to pretend or try to be straight

I wonder how many people will be "LOL" when they are standing before the Great White Throne and trying to explain this concept to the Creator of the Universe?

 

[MrPirate]

I wonder how many people will be "LOL" when they are standing before the Great White Throne and trying to explain this concept to the Creator of the Universe?

I’m wondering how you will explain why you ignored the commandment of Jesus

 

[*Starlight*]

I wonder how many people will be "LOL" when they are standing before the Great White Throne and trying to explain this concept to the Creator of the Universe?

Even if you're right, do you think that God is going to be evil towards people just because they were wrong about something?