Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

FreeGrace2 said:

It was from Scripture. Please answer my questions about what justification, sanctificataion and glorification are about, if not the 3 tenses of salvation.

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Could you first give me book, chapter and verses of where this is in scripture

Dan the deacon said:

Not completely. Not until we are free of this sinful flesh.

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I could inundate you with scriptures that say we have eternal life right now. That we are a new creation(which you don't seem to understand that that has NOTHING to do with our sin nature.) the new creation is what is saved, HAS eternal life and will never perish.

But just prove this one verse wrong. Ephesians 2:8.

"have been saved" is a periphrastic perfect. 2 verbs, formulated in a Greek phrase that gives all the information we need to know about 'have been saved' in a very forceful and emphatic way.

In the past, you were saved, those results are ongoing in the present, and will emphatically continue on forever!! It is a word construct in the Greek that has no loopholes. And is made to get our attention.

So if your right. The periphrastic perfect could not be used in this verse. Prove to me that it is not the periphrastic perfect in Ephesians 2:8.......and one more thing, the exact phrase and construct is used in Eph 2:4.

Dan the deacon said:

Yes I have clue. It is called Scripture and Tradition taught by the Church. Tenses of salvation is an an odd teaching I do not agree with. Now if you.can cite a scripture saying someone is saved rather than will be saved, post it. Please use a real translation not one of those new ones that change the meaning. KJV, ASV, NIV ,NASV will work fine.

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Ephesians 2:8 and 2:4 along with many others emphatically state that I am saved.......use the original language.

This is why the debate rages..........Carnal man cannot understand spiritual things. Get yourself saved RIGHT NOW and this will make sense.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If your not saved right now...........spiritual things are never going to get through.

Gr8Grace said:

I could inundate you with scriptures that say we have eternal life right now. That we are a new creation(which you don't seem to understand that that has NOTHING to do with our sin nature.) the new creation is what is saved, HAS eternal life and will never perish.

But just prove this one verse wrong. Ephesians 2:8.

"have been saved" is a periphrastic perfect. 2 verbs, formulated in a Greek phrase that gives all the information we need to know about 'have been saved' in a very forceful and emphatic way.

In the past, you were saved, those results are ongoing in the present, and will emphatically continue on forever!! It is a word construct in the Greek that has no loopholes. And is made to get our attention.

So if your right. The periphrastic perfect could not be used in this verse. Prove to me that it is not the periphrastic perfect in Ephesians 2:8.......and one more thing, the exact phrase and construct is used in Eph 2:4.

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In that version it does say that. That is not what the Greek version says. The KJV also does not translate it in that manner. So did you pick that version because of that translation or is it the one you use?

Dan the deacon said:

Yes I have clue. It is called Scripture and Tradition taught by the Church. Tenses of salvation is an an odd teaching I do not agree with. Now if you.can cite a scripture saying someone is saved rather than will be saved, post it. Please use a real translation not one of those new ones that change the meaning. KJV, ASV, NIV ,NASV will work fine.

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“And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

“He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭

In a sense salvation is eternally secure. Because the names of those who are saved are written in the book of life before creation. God has already foreseen who will be victorious and written them in the book of life. Since God has foreseen it the book is complete. There will be no alterations. God had foreseen all. Now this doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is written in the book of life because they believe. Someone could be on the path to being written in the book then later fall from grace. Because they didn’t abide in Jesus they were not written in the book of life. We are unfolding now what God has already foreseen. Our actions today and tomorrow we’re taken into consideration by God before creation. Because of this we still have free will and can control what God foresaw. We are still free at this moment to do as we please. We can decide to abide in God or reject Him. Whatever we choose is what God has already foreseen before creation. So in a sense our salvation is secure but then in another sense what we do affects what God has foreseen.

Dan the deacon said:

In that version it does say that. That is not what the Greek version says. The KJV also does not translate it in that manner. So did you pick that version because of that translation or is it the one you use?

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As a matter of fact, the Greek, at a quick glance says,"You are saved."

1510 [e]
este
ἐστε
you are
V-PIA-2P
4982 [e]
sesōsmenoi
σεσῳσμένοι
saved
V-RPM/P-NMP

But the way the Phrase is put together, It is a periphrastic Perfect. So We need to take that into account. We are saved(In the past) and those results are ongoing and will go on forever. The periphrastic is used to EMPHATICALLY state it. No loophole. So a loser believer cannot take away the winner believers assurance in Christ.

I don't care what translation you use. Prove to me the Greek language does not say this and does not use the periphrastic perfect......Hint..... You can't and won't. This single verse along with Eph 2:4 completely and totally refutes what you have presented.

FreeGrace2 said:

Gettin' kinda touchy, now, are we? What's actually rancid is being in direct opposition to what Jesus taught about eternal security.

As for the rest of your rancid post, just go ahead and continue in your Pharisee system of works salvation. And see how far it will get you.

But remember what Jesus told the Pharisees in John 5:37-40
37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

This passage is for you.

You think life is in commandments. So did the Pharisees.

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I know eternal life is in obeying the truth.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

This scripture is for you Freegrace, and all who teach the heresy of OSAS.
















JLB

BNR32FAN said:

“And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

“He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭

In a sense salvation is eternally secure. Because the names of those who are saved are written in the book of life before creation. God has already foreseen who will be victorious and written them in the book of life. Since God has foreseen it the book is complete. There will be no alterations. God had foreseen all. Now this doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is written in the book of life because they believe. Someone could be on the path to being written in the book then later fall from grace. Because they didn’t abide in Jesus they were not written in the book of life. We are unfolding now what God has already foreseen. Our actions today and tomorrow we’re taken into consideration by God before creation. Because of this we still have free will and can control what God foresaw. We are still free at this moment to do as we please. We can decide to abide in God or reject Him. Whatever we choose is what God has already foreseen before creation. So in a sense our salvation is secure but then in another sense what we do affects what God has foreseen.

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Scripture also says names can be blotted out of that book.

JLB777 said:

Does John 10:27 pertain to you.

Following Him is a life long commitment.

We will know if John 10:27 pertains to you at the end of your life if you have been faith to remain in Christ.

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Yes, John 10:27 pertains to me RIGHT NOW.
1 John 5:13~~
New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.~~ John 10:28.

You may think this is about who is right or wrong. It is not for me.

You cannot follow Him UNTIL you are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Your in dire straits JLB. We can try to emulate Him and His walk till we are blue in the face.............and It won't save ONE person. In fact, this is what easy believism really is. Set up our own subjective reasoning on 'following ' Him enough and we are good to go.

Gr8Grace said:

Ephesians 2:8 and 2:4 along with many others emphatically state that I am saved.......use the original language.

This is why the debate rages..........Carnal man cannot understand spiritual things. Get yourself saved RIGHT NOW and this will make sense.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If your not saved right now...........spiritual things are never going to get through.

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How could a man get himself saved? I think that is God's job. Man cannot get saved. God saves through Jesus Christ. Man can only believe
I do thank you for your concern for me and all Orthodox believers. But I can only speak for myself. I am being saved. Once I'm in heaven I'll say I am saved. I still wear sinful flesh and that will never see heaven nor God face to face.

Gr8Grace said:

Yes, John 10:27 pertains to me RIGHT NOW.
1 John 5:13~~
New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.~~ John 10:28.

You may think this is about who is right or wrong. It is not for me.

You cannot follow Him UNTIL you are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Your in dire straits JLB. We can try to emulate Him and His walk till we are blue in the face.............and It won't save ONE person. In fact, this is what easy believism really is. Set up our own subjective reasoning on 'following ' Him enough and we are good to go.

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If any of us were good enough to go then He died for nothing.

Dan the deacon said:

How could a man get himself saved? I think that is God's job. Man cannot get saved. God saves through Jesus Christ. Man can only believe
I do thank you for your concern for me and all Orthodox believers. But I can only speak for myself. I am being saved. Once I'm in heaven I'll say I am saved. I still wear sinful flesh and that will never see heaven nor God face to face.

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Believe and then Christ saves. That is pretty basic.
And you will keep skipping over Eph 2:8 and 2:4.......Because they refute your unorthodox beliefs.

Again, Show me that the periphrastic perfect is not used in Eph 2:8 And 4. Cause it cannot be used if you are correct.

Gr8Grace said:

Yes, John 10:27 pertains to me RIGHT NOW.
1 John 5:13~~
New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.~~ John 10:28.

You may think this is about who is right or wrong. It is not for me.

You cannot follow Him UNTIL you are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Your in dire straits JLB. We can try to emulate Him and His walk till we are blue in the face.............and It won't save ONE person. In fact, this is what easy believism really is. Set up our own subjective reasoning on 'following ' Him enough and we are good to go.

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I notice you use different versions of the Bible depending on what point you are trying to make. Can't you prove your point with a single translation?

Dan the deacon said:

If any of us were good enough to go then He died for nothing.

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Funny, Because that is what your trying to tell us.

Dan the deacon said:

I notice you use different versions of the Bible depending on what point you are trying to make. Can't you prove your point with a single translation?

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Yeah, Just keep ignoring Eph 2:8 And 4 IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE.
They completely debunk your theology.

Gr8Grace said:

Yes, John 10:27 pertains to me RIGHT NOW.

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And will continue to pertain to you throughout your life.

The following is a lifelong commitment, with the end result being given eternal life.


JLB

JLB777 said:

And will continue to pertain to you throughout your life.

The following is a lifelong commitment, with the end result being given eternal life.


JLB

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Interesting how you cut 1 John 5:13 out.


New American Standard Bible
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 10:28~~
New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Gr8Grace said:

Yeah, Just keep ignoring Eph 2:8 And 4 IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE.
They completely debunk your theology.

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I have read it in the Greek. It does not say what your chosen version says. Neither does the KJV.

I said:
"Are you actually going to argue against these 3 tenses (or senses) of salvation?

Well then, go ahead and refute these 3 tenses (or senses).

When one believes, have they NOT been saved from the penalty of sin?
When one believes, are they NOT being saved from the power of sin when they are filled with the Spirit and NOT grieving/quenching the Spirit?
When one believes, are they NOT going to be saved from the presence of sin in eternity?

Please answer these questions."

Dan the deacon said:

Seeing the new testament is written to and for the Church, why would this be written to those you say are saved(the Church)?
O agree the word saved is a tense (past tence)except that the words" will be" indicates a future event. I agree we have entered into salvation bit it is not complete here on earth. We are being saved. We are not saved. Not as long as you wear flesh. Your flesh is a great part of you and yet it will not see heaven. Your new body will. So how can you.be saved when a third of you is not even headed for heaven?

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This hardly refutes my points.

Each point relates to different parts of our salvation. Did you miss that?

And you did not answer any of my questions.

And a few more:

Please explain what justification means in reference to sin.
Please explain what sanctificaton means in reference to sin.
Please explain what glorification means in reference to sin.

Bingo!

Dan the deacon said:

Yes I have clue. It is called Scripture and Tradition taught by the Church.

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Well, there's a clue too. Tradition is "taught" by the RCC, and has NO PLACE in Christianity. It is the Word of God ONLY that we are to follow.

Mark 7
4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles. )
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Well, so much for "traditions". According to Jesus.

Tenses of salvation is an an odd teaching I do not agree with.

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Then please answer my questions to show that it is more than "odd" (meaning that you're simply unaware of it) but wrong. Otherwise, all you've got is an opinion.

Now if you.can cite a scripture saying someone is saved rather than will be saved, post it. Please use a real translation not one of those new ones that change the meaning. KJV, ASV, NIV ,NASV will work fine.

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My pleasure:

Luke 7:50 - Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Acts 16:30 - He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

2 Thess 2:10 - and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Heb 10:39 - But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

These all came from the NIV on biblestudytools.com.