Sedevacantist Heresy

[Ave Maria]

Hey everyone. We all know that Sedevacantism is a heresy in which all popes since Vatican II are rejected as invalid. Basically they reject the entire post-Vatican II Church. If what they say is true then Jesus is a liar (which we know He isn't!) because Jesus promised that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against the Catholic Church but if what they claim is true then the Gates of Hell did prevail! We know that the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church.

So anyway, I am just wondering, how can one refute this insidious and evil heresy?

 

[RKO]

I think the sedevancantists say that the church is tiny and "underground" for the time being. Sort of a one pman inter-regnum. So they do not believe the gates have prevailed. In fact, they believe that they are saving the "true church" from the gates of hell.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

They are not heretics, but they are in schism. It's like how the Eastern Orthodox are not heretics but are in schism with Rome.

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

So anyway, I am just wondering, how can one refute this insidious and evil heresy?

You should not even attempt to do so, your efforts will be fruitless. The situation is complicated on so many levels.

First you'll have to establish that the most minute statements from the Roman Pontiffs, even those that amount to mere hearsay, do not constitute heresy. Then you have to go through a point by point defence of the Second Vatican Council. Then you have to get into the nitty-gritty of magisterial authority, when and where the Church is infallible or fallible (and this is not as black and white as you may think at first). Then you have to completely tackle the thesis that an heretical pope would lose his office. If you had the time and the patience then you could just cut to the heart of the matter and dismantle Saint Robert Bellarmine's opinions on heretical popes losing office. That is pretty much the foundation of Sedevacantism. If you concede that a pope ceases to be pope when he embraces heresy, then you basically give them all that they need to hold obstinately to their beliefs.

Honestly, the best thing to do for sedevacantists is to pray for them. They are an odd combination of extreme ultramontanism, clericalism, and a paradoxical mix of astounding ignorance and genius. They've intellectually pinned themselves into a corner and they live by the letter of the law, as it were. Only grace can move their hearts now.

Many of them are simply confused. They see how the Church is in today's age, and they see the glaring disparity and discontinuity between the bishops and popes of yesteryear and the bishops and popes of today. They're scared. We have to be gentle with them.

They are not heretics, but they are in schism.

I'm not sure, I think you can make an argument for the fact that they might indeed be heretics. It is an article of the faith that the local Church of Rome can never fall in to corporate error. The local Church of Rome will never embrace heresy. But according to the Sedevacantists, the local Church of Rome has done just that. If the Diocese of Rome has fallen and no long exists as a visible and orthodox institution, then the entire Church has fallen. If they deny this doctrine, of the impeccability of the local Church of Rome, then they're heretics.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.

 

[Tallguy88]

I believe they are heretics. It is one thing to say one particular Pope is not the Pope, like if there is a popular Anti-Pope and people aren't sure which one is legit.

But to say that ALL Popes since Pius X, or whenever, are invalid is a different matter entirely. It is saying that the gates of Hell have prevailed. I don't see how anyone can say that and still call themselves Catholic.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think it is so weird that some people seem so harsh on the heresies of the Sedevacantist sects and are so mild on the numerous heresies of the Protestant sects

which one has done more harm to entire societies and nations?
which one has led more people away from the true religion?
which one has led to more Catholics being killed as martyrs for the Lord?

 

[Christiancounseling]

Sedevacantism is not equal to our Orthodox brothers

First off, the Orthodox church is not in schism but shares in the true faith--albeit not in union. They have legitimate apostolic Sees which are equal to the See of Rome and not under Rome's legal jurisdiction.

The Sedevacantists are under legal authority of Rome since they are Latin Catholics and have rejected their Patriarch. They are true examples of schism.

The schism, or so called mutual schism of Orthodoxy and Catholicism is not a true schism because neither must bow before each other, but it is a division between equal apostolic brothers who must re-embrace each other---the only kicker is the Patriarch of Rome is the successor of Peter and us Catholics are blessed with the fullness of faith not 99.9 percent of it.

The sedevacations are no better than Henry the 8th--denying papal authority and accepting Catholic teaching----

They are extreme traditionalists and pharisitical and judgemental lot who equates Catholicism with Latin---they dare say the pope had no right to alter the Mass---when the Patriarch of Rome has every right to alter the traditions of the mass--and they also insult the Eastern Church by proudly proclaiming the Old Mass as the only valid expression of the Liturgy---I am quite sure St Basil and St John C would have something to say of that

In my few encounters, I find them to be narrowminded, proud, bigoted lot---no love loss whatsoever---may God have mercy on their souls for their schism and disobedience to their Patriarch---


Mark Moran, MA
Christian Spiritual Counseling Certification | AIHCP.org

 

[Christiancounseling]

Rhamiel

I think the reason why we look at them harder is because they are first generation---the first generation protests who revolted against the church died 500 years ago---those pushing the heresy and schism of the sedevacantists are living now

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I believe they are heretics. It is one thing to say one particular Pope is not the Pope, like if there is a popular Anti-Pope and people aren't sure which one is legit.

But to say that ALL Popes since Pius X, or whenever, are invalid is a different matter entirely. It is saying that the gates of Hell have prevailed. I don't see how anyone can say that and still call themselves Catholic.

They would argue that it's not unprecedented for there to be a long gap between Popes where the chair is vacant. Or course, I don't agree with them that the Popes have been invalid. I'm just saying how they would argue it.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Sedevacantism is not equal to our Orthodox brothers

First off, the Orthodox church is not in schism but shares in the true faith--albeit not in union.

The split between East and West was called the Great Schism. So it was a schism that took place.

 

[Tallguy88]

They would argue that it's not unprecedented for there to be a long gap between Popes where the chair is vacant. Or course, I don't agree with them that the Popes have been invalid. I'm just saying how they would argue it.

But during those gaps there was not one man universally recognized by all the Bishops as Pope. Most Sedes seem to believe that there is no true Pope, no true Bishops, and no true Priests. I can't fathom how they square all that with Holy Teadition and the history of the Church.

 

[Christiancounseling]

It was called that---you are correct

but upon deeper investigation, a study of ecclesiology, an understanding of patriarchs and their roles, and recent movements towards each other--including the removal of mutual excommunications----the schism in the true sense was manmade--not a theological schism in the true sense of the word---at least that's my opinion and its growing--especially as we push towards reunification---but hardliners on both sides will continue in their hate and pride and call each other names----not saying you--you rightfully posted what it was called historically---but as I pointed out---its not truly a theological schism---but a manmade schism----much to our Divine Lords anger--as per say his approved apparitions to myrna in syria

 

[Tallguy88]

I think it is so weird that some people seem so harsh on the heresies of the Sedevacantist sects and are so mild on the numerous heresies of the Protestant sects

which one has done more harm to entire societies and nations?
which one has led more people away from the true religion?
which one has led to more Catholics being killed as martyrs for the Lord?

I think it is basically a question of when. In 1500s certainly most of the Protestants were heretics. But now 99% of Protestants were never Catholic, they were born into it. So they are not true heretics. They believe heresy, but they are not guilty of willfully committing heresy. Most Sedes are baptized confirmed Catholics who have fallen into heresy.

 

[Christiancounseling]

Tallguy

Correct observation--a difference between confusion in history and a arbitrary and purposeful and malicious denial of the popes, bishops and leadership of the church as heretical----

I really cannot stomach them or their idealogy

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I think it is basically a question of when. In 1500s certainly most of the Protestants were heretics. But now 99% of Protestants were never Catholic, they were born into it. So they are not true heretics. They believe heresy, but they are not guilty of willfully committing heresy. Most Sedes are baptized confirmed Catholics who have fallen into heresy.

Although it's true that a lot of Protestants were born into it, a lot of today's Protestants are also fallen away Catholics. That's why the Church needs the "New Evangelization," an attempt to try to get them back and to teach the Catholics who haven't left why they should stay.

 

[Ave Maria]

Well, it looks like my thread has become quite interesting.

That said, I really do hope that the Sedevacantists will return to the Catholic Church in repentance.

 

[Tallguy88]

Although it's true that a lot of Protestants were born into it, a lot of today's Protestants are also fallen away Catholics. That's why the Church needs the "New Evangelization," an attempt to try to get them back and to teach the Catholics who haven't left why they should stay.

I agree about evangelization.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, it looks like my thread has become quite interesting.

That said, I really do hope that the Sedevacantists will return to the Catholic Church in repentance.

As do I. I also hope the SSPX (who are NOT heretics) accept Vatican2 and are fully reconciled. We need more faithful Traditional Catholics in the Church!

 

[Tori_12345]

I grew up in the sedevecantist community. By the grace of God, I am no longer a sedevecantist. And let me just say that you have little to no chance of ever trying to have at least a dialogue with a sedevecantist. They are stuck in their ways and mindset. Having a dialogue with them is like talking to a brick wall.
This may sound harsh, but I grew up with sedevecantism and that chaotic community, so I know. I have experienced so many unpleasant things from sedevecantists that finally I have come to realize that their fundamental ways cannot be the ways of Jesus, who promised Saint Peter that the gates of hell SHALL NEVER prevail against the Church, the Bride of Christ, our Ark of salvation. Yes, I may not agree with everything that Pope Francis says and does, but he is still the true Pope, selected by God. I, for one, refuse to go back and be stuck in 1958.

 

[Michie]

This thread is from 2014.