Secure Salvation Vs. Losing Your Salvation

[onebit]

Hi to all,

I have an important debate to bring up, and I am looking, not to argue, but to reason with those seeking the Righteousness of God and not the glory of flesh. I am facing frustration: mainly for the reason that I believe the Lord has taught me one thing and good brother and teacher seeks to teach me different. The case is the security of the believer. Many profess one thing and have many scriptures to prove there point and many the other. I will start by stating what I believe the Lord has shown me.

It started when I when I went on a fast for three days in the mountains seeking God. The Holy Spirit came to me and said "Worship God". I obeyed and then listened after brief worship as the Spirit began to lead me. This went on for two days. I awoke the following day and God continued to lead me. He began to show me by reminding me of scripture that it is his will that I be saved and who can resist the will of the Lord (Romans 9). He then went on to chasten me that I must except the righteousness he has accomplished for me. He showed me that Righteousness is to be completely foregiven of all iniquity (past, present, and future), so that I would stand in his presence in the day of judgement with boldness, blameless before him. He went on to show me that if I had one sin that was not atoned for that I would not enter into heaven, therefore necessitating his Righteousness is needed to clothe our sinfullness. I agree with this. He then went on to show me that we are sealed unto the day redemption (Ephesians 1) and that we cannot lose our salvation during our lifetime. He then cautioned me that I donot neglect my salvation through unbelief for he showed me that if those who denied the salvation of Christ did not excape how shall I excape judgement (Hebrews). Then He showed me that a man can lose his Salvation only if he rejects his birthright as Esau did by trading it for something lesser such as a life of sin (Hebrew 12). He showed me that it is not the life of sin that results in losing our salvation but rather a hardened heart that rejects Christ. He showed me that alike the Prodigal Son his hand is always outstreched which gives us the understanding coupled with Ephesians that he never gives up on us. He showed that he is always seeking to guide us and correct us and keep us. But that it is those who harden there heart and will not listen to the holy spirits correction, and reject Christ, all the way unto their death, that face being rejected of God. Note that I didn't say that he rejects us during our life time, because he will never leave us nor forsake us. But rather it is a person who does not heed to the correction of God and rejects Christ and does not turn back that in the end loses his salvation. He then went on to show me that this is concidered blaspheming His Holy Spirit that is sent to convince us of rightiousness and that these are the ones that are thrown forth as branches and are burned because they treated the message of salvation as a lie.

This all took place in two days of major shaking in my life. I heeded the correction.

Now I have faced much resistance from the devil and loved ones. I have feared that I may not have heard God and that I heard a seducing spirit. I also have a loving brother who is an elder in the church that has been disagreeing with me and he is someone that I respect in authority. Yet everything that I heard the Lord speak to me lines up with all the scripture. Some say that Paul doesn't teach that you can lose your salvation. Yet he makes statements like ... if you continue in the faith... Some claim that they are Pauline in doctrine and that Hebrew was written only to Hebrews. Yet you have me that claims that God has shown me different. Needless to say I want to hold to what I believe God revealed to me- because He chastened me and I walked away stronger having a deeper understanding of his long suffering.

My conclusion is that I believe that it is nearly impossible for someone to lose their salvation unless they reject Christ's long suffering and the endless conviction of righteousness by the Holy Spirit. I still think it is impossible to restist his will except if you blaspheme his Holy Spirit.

Please share your imput as I seek to hear others in their conviction. Ultimately I seek the confirmation of God that my doctrin would be wrough in Christ.

Love Billy

 

[jlujan69]

My exactly two cents worth is that what you've hit upon is what the OSAS brethren don't acknowledge--Scripture teaches both truths. A contradiction? Even with election, Scripture teaches us both competing viewpoints--that of God's sovereign election of the saints and man's responsibility to not reject so great a salvation. In human history, the Bible again shows two realities--human free will operating and God sovereignly operating. As "Greeks", we're hard pressed to reconcile the two seemingly contradictory positions, so we insist on one or the other, to our misfortune. We need to overcome our tendency to conform God to our understanding and instead "release" Him from the theological box we like to stuff Him in.............My apologies if this post isn't deep enough for this particular forum! Like, sometimes I can be so shallow. Like, ya know!

 

[johnd]

The scriptures indicate that the only ones who can ever walk away from faith are those who never truly believed and therefore never were truly saved in the first place.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

Further, if we are so set on not giving up a particular sin (in this case a sex sin):

1 Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the denial or lack of belief in Jesus Christ either in death or at the point of last chance (as was the case with the Pharisees in Matthew 12:22-32).

The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There are many other scriptures teaching the security of salvation. Chiefest among them are:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is nothing "iffy" about eternal life. It's like there is no such things as being a little bit pregnant. Either you are or you are not.

Regards,

 

[johnd]

Furthermore, the Law was given to teach man of the utter hopelessness of his ability to save himself. It was and is meant to drive us beyond our limits to the One who can save us.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

It is just about our having faith in the genuine Jesus. Why would God go to such lengths to prove our inability only to require us to depend on our works to remain saved? He wouldn't. And thankfully he doesn't.

Regards,

 

[johnd]

We LOVE him because he first LOVED us.

Our devotion to God is not from a sense of obligation but from love.

 

[onebit]

I actually have a part of me that I would like confirmed by God... That is along the same lines of what you are talking about. That God is Sovereign "and" we have free will. Like you were saying there is evidence for both.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Then we read in Hebrews about Esuas choice:

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I beleive that it is because of God's foreknowledege, which we humans do not have, that he actually hates someone before they are born. Simply because he knows that person before they are even born. Yet he also loves. For he so loved the world. I find it interesting that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. As if he hates them for their wickedness yet loves them because they are his creation. God even shows us in Romans that it is not our will but rather his mercy that is extended to us that saves us:

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not being shallow to think that God is Sovereign and that He gave us free will. I look at it as limited free will. He gave us the free will to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which he had foreknowledge of, and yet he is Sovereign too, because he could have prevented it. He too shows how he is Sovereign over our will in the scripture above showing that we did not choose him, rather he chose us. Yet he still gave us the opportunity to respond to his call and is just to judge us either way we respond. Even the tower of Babel shows us where God intervened and exerted his will over the people's will of building the tower to heaven. So he gives us free will yet our will cannot resist his will if it comes into conflict as to something being performed by God. Who has resisted the will of the Lord? (Again Romans).

I see the love of God in this verse:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The love being that he who has been chosen by God cannot resist his will. He is loved wether he likes it or not.

That was my case; I had built a wall around me and would not accept love, even God's love till the Lord showed me his goodness and severity. His will won out over mine. His goodness softened my heart. That is why I hold to my experience in the mountains while on that fast.

I welcome others to comment and discuss the glory of God. Post questions and concerns if you have any. God loves us and desires us with a great passion!

--Billy

 

[onebit]

I think you are basically agreeing with me JohnD as I agree with your quoting of scripture. I hear your heart as well. It is not of works but of faith and that a gift of God. We are saved both by Christ's faith and the faith which he gave us! If you understand what I mean by that.

About Galatians I disagree with the translation of the text simply because the words "bring us unto" are not in the original Greek scripts.

But I do know that the law was great burden and impossible to fullfill except by Christ our redeemer.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law has been our tutor to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I like the next verse:

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You have basically confirmed my position about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that I believe God revealed to me by opening the scriptures to me!

Let's keep chatin I love God and His Son!

--Billy

 

[onebit]

Col 1:21 ... yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled ...

I bring up this scripture to further support that it is important and vital to continue in the faith for even Paul said that we must continue in the faith if we are to remain reconciled. Do you see that. I am not in fear of losing my salvation as much as I want to take care and make sure I remain in faith.

--B

 

[Noteye]

Hi to all,

I have an important debate to bring up, and I am looking, not to argue, but to reason with those seeking the Righteousness of God and not the glory of flesh. I am facing frustration: mainly for the reason that I believe the Lord has taught me one thing and good brother and teacher seeks to teach me different. The case is the security of the believer. Many profess one thing and have many scriptures to prove there point and many the other. I will start by stating what I believe the Lord has shown me.

It started when I when I went on a fast for three days in the mountains seeking God. The Holy Spirit came to me and said "Worship God". I obeyed and then listened after brief worship as the Spirit began to lead me. This went on for two days. I awoke the following day and God continued to lead me. He began to show me by reminding me of scripture that it is his will that I be saved and who can resist the will of the Lord (Romans 9). He then went on to chasten me that I must except the righteousness he has accomplished for me. He showed me that Righteousness is to be completely foregiven of all iniquity (past, present, and future), so that I would stand in his presence in the day of judgement with boldness, blameless before him. He went on to show me that if I had one sin that was not atoned for that I would not enter into heaven, therefore necessitating his Righteousness is needed to clothe our sinfullness. I agree with this. He then went on to show me that we are sealed unto the day redemption (Ephesians 1) and that we cannot lose our salvation during our lifetime. He then cautioned me that I donot neglect my salvation through unbelief for he showed me that if those who denied the salvation of Christ did not excape how shall I excape judgement (Hebrews). Then He showed me that a man can lose his Salvation only if he rejects his birthright as Esau did by trading it for something lesser such as a life of sin (Hebrew 12). He showed me that it is not the life of sin that results in losing our salvation but rather a hardened heart that rejects Christ. He showed me that alike the Prodigal Son his hand is always outstreched which gives us the understanding coupled with Ephesians that he never gives up on us. He showed that he is always seeking to guide us and correct us and keep us. But that it is those who harden there heart and will not listen to the holy spirits correction, and reject Christ, all the way unto their death, that face being rejected of God. Note that I didn't say that he rejects us during our life time, because he will never leave us nor forsake us. But rather it is a person who does not heed to the correction of God and rejects Christ and does not turn back that in the end loses his salvation. He then went on to show me that this is concidered blaspheming His Holy Spirit that is sent to convince us of rightiousness and that these are the ones that are thrown forth as branches and are burned because they treated the message of salvation as a lie.

This all took place in two days of major shaking in my life. I heeded the correction.

Now I have faced much resistance from the devil and loved ones. I have feared that I may not have heard God and that I heard a seducing spirit. I also have a loving brother who is an elder in the church that has been disagreeing with me and he is someone that I respect in authority. Yet everything that I heard the Lord speak to me lines up with all the scripture. Some say that Paul doesn't teach that you can lose your salvation. Yet he makes statements like ... if you continue in the faith... Some claim that they are Pauline in doctrine and that Hebrew was written only to Hebrews. Yet you have me that claims that God has shown me different. Needless to say I want to hold to what I believe God revealed to me- because He chastened me and I walked away stronger having a deeper understanding of his long suffering.

My conclusion is that I believe that it is nearly impossible for someone to lose their salvation unless they reject Christ's long suffering and the endless conviction of righteousness by the Holy Spirit. I still think it is impossible to restist his will except if you blaspheme his Holy Spirit.

Please share your imput as I seek to hear others in their conviction. Ultimately I seek the confirmation of God that my doctrin would be wrough in Christ.

Love Billy

If we must maintain or keep our salvation by our righteousness, then how is this not works?

I believe the only righteousness we receive, have and ever will have is HIS; it is who He is. Our righteousness is in Him and of Him and by Him, He is the only righteousness that counts, and it is His righteousness that (by faith) is accounted to us/our account when we receive Him.

If we reject righteousness by grace through faith, then we do dispite the Spirit of grace and trample the blood of the Son of God underfoot of men. This is what I personally believe it means for a believer to turn from Jesus Christ.

I also believe that except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit there is no sin, nor lapse of or failure of righteousness that is not covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ, as it is written in 1John 1:9, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Failure to acknowledge and repent of sin does bring us under the corrective judgment of our merciful Heavenly Father who chastens and scourges every son whom He receives. If we do not live according to the grace He gives us then I believe we will be called to give an account to Him for not doing so. I believe that many forfeit blessings in this life and lose rewards in the life to come, as a result. However, I do not believe we lose our salvation by our failure to walk as we ought.

I believe that God's measure of righteousness is that of a sinless and spotless life and that measure or standard of rightourness is only met in and accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ, through His life which He lived and gave for us in our place.

Jesus Christ and His Righteousness is the standard of righteousness, a standard of righteousness that we cannot attain neither can we maintain. I do not therefore believe that our failure to neasure up, or our failure to know and confess all of our sins, or our failure to keep ourselves from sin (which, in effect, is a failure of righteousness on our part) could separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do believe that many believers who do not live a godly life in Christ will suffer loss of their rewards but still their souls shall be saved for they have been purchased by the shed Blood of Jesus. Those [He said] who come to Him have been given to Him by the Fatger. The souls of all those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ are His [very own] for Him to keep; He has lost NONE of all the Father has give Him but the son of perdition. He also said that those who are His belong also to the Father and there is none can take them out of my Father's hand. (I don't know about you, but that sounds like secure salvation to me!)

Those whose works are wood, hay and stubble will see their works burned up but their souls will be saved; and some will be saved yet so as by fire.

Once we have committed the keeping of our souls to Him, the keeping of our salvation is His work. We can neither save ourselves nor maintain a level of righteousness or holiness sufficient to keep ourselves. The LORD is our Redeemer and He Himself is our Keeper.

I believe therefore, that we are saved by His works and hallowed by His merit, (we stand) by His virtue not by our ours, as it is written, [those] whom He has justified, He [has also] sanctified.

God knew from the beginning those who would choose Him and according to scripture, those whom God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [i.e., to be hid in Christ] To me, this means that He has promised upon all that He is to keep those who are His because they have committed the keeping of their souls to Him and that I believe this is very much a part and parcel of that salvation AND righteousness that is by grace through faith, not of works, not of ourselves lest any man will boast.

And finally, I am reminded that it is written that no flesh will glory in His presence. I believe that no one will ever be able to stand before God and say, I am still saved (or kept saved) because I maintained the righteousness You gave me. Likewise no one will ever stand before Him and boast of their holiness or that they kept themselves righteous and/or holy. It is true that without holiness no man shall see God, but [to me] that holiness is Jesus Christ who is our holiness unto the Lord. No flesh will be ablle to boast of any thing except in and of the LORD Himself.

All that pertains to redemption, salvation, holiness, sanctification, righteousness etc. are all the gift of grace, worked for us by Him, in Him, of Him and through Him (in whom we live and move and have our being!) To Him be the glory and the praise now and forever, Amen!

Noteye

 

[grateful heart]

Hi All

So are you saying that once we are saved the ONLY way we cannot be saved to to willfully reject Christ in out lives? if this is so what about Paul saying the adulterers and fornicators will not inherit the kindom of God(Heaven)???

 

[Noteye]

Hi All

So are you saying that once we are saved the ONLY way we cannot be saved to to willfully reject Christ in out lives? if this is so what about Paul saying the adulterers and fornicators will not inherit the kindom of God(Heaven)???

I believe there are many religious people in this world who believe they are saved and even many who believe themselves to be Christian, but are not --God is the Judge. And I believe that there are many in these last days who have received another Jesus and another gospel and they also believe they are saved, but are not --again, God is the Judge. I think this does account at least in part for those who CONTINUE in such things as Paul mentions. In this respect, Jesus Himself told us that in that day, many will say to me, Lord Lord but not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom of heaven. I believe there is a great deal of difference between committing the sin of adultery versus remaining so and there is also a difference between committing the sin of fornication and being a fornicator. I do not believe that those who are saved can remain adulterers or fornicators, and that it is this latter (remaining in this) condition to which Paul was referring.

In Christ,

Noteye

 

[Stinker]

Imagine if you heard a non-Christian ask a Christian: "Do you believe that you are 100% saved right now?" And the Christian answering; "No one can know if they are 100% saved until after the Judgement day. Christians just have a better chance because non-Christians have no chance."

This is what many Christians actually believe.

Just imagine a Christian being on their deathbed with this belief on their mind. Horrifying!

 

[onebit]

Noteye,

You misunderstood me. I believe that the gift of righteousness is of him and through him by his work. What I am saying is that if we have received the gift and turn to sin, and live a life in sin, we risk the hardening of the heart due to the deceitfulness of sin. This hardening of the heart can result in rejecting Christ's gift of righteousness, rejecting Christ himself, and ultimately "if" their is never a response to the Holy Spirit's conviction of the Righteousness of Christ unto death you make the Holy Spirit a liar by saying his message of Righteousness is not true. Therefore the serverity of God. A person in this case has rejected his birthright as Esau did and does not recieve the blessing that was rightfully his. (Hebrews 12)

People who live a life of fornication, adultery, idolatry, after their salvation donot enter in to the Kingdom of God, not because of those sins, but because their hearts have been hardened unto the truth and they die refusing the truth thus they donot enter in because of their blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The only case for losing your salvation.
There is goodness to God as you have mentioned and severity of God as I have mentioned. You can't choose which one exists. They both exist. He fortunately has chosen me and you. And I donot choose to repent of it. For I do not want the severity of God.

That is what I am saying. Can you see, where scripture applies?

 

[onebit]

I know I am Christian by the revelation I received when I was born again. Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. I also believe that I have been delivered from wrath as Paul states in Thesolonians and saved by Christ's life in me. I have no problem with that. I also believe that it is nearly impossible for anyone to lose their salvation because of the goodness of God. Yet the only case for rejection is if one rejects their birthright and denies Christ and his righteousness unto their death, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[jlujan69]

I know I am Christian by the revelation I received when I was born again. Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God. I also believe that I have been delivered from wrath as Paul states in Thesolonians and saved by Christ's life in me. I have no problem with that. I also believe that it is nearly impossible for anyone to lose their salvation because of the goodness of God. Yet the only case for rejection is if one rejects their birthright and denies Christ and his righteousness unto their death, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Well put, onebit. A preacher who believes in OSAS once compared this to Noah in the ark saying that since God shut the door, there was no way that Noah could have jumped out into the water had he wanted to. Now I'll grant you that it would have been mighty stupid for Noah to want to jump in the water and drown, but to say it would have been impossible is stretching it. As long as Noah kept believing God, he wouldn't have wanted to jump out, but what if he had stopped believing God? Scripture certainly doesn't rule out this possibility. Personally, I do embrace that wonderful promise that no one can snatch me out of the Father's hand, but I don't just assume that it'd be impossible for me to jump out. As long as I'm striving to obey my Lord, then the thought of jumping out of His hand is a mighty ludicrous one. But who's to say what my state of mind and spirit would be if I were to continuously harden my heart to His promptings and refuse to even deal with the convictions and continue in rebellion. I might be just insane enough to stop believing Him and jump out of His loving hand. I endeavor to stay alert because of the adversary who walks around as a roaring lion.

 

[grateful heart]

how many times do you have to commit adultery to be an adulterer? or fornication a fornicator?there are many instances that say if you do certain things you can lose your salvation, by grace and works not by one along will assure your salvation

and what on earth is this OSAS???

 

[Runsdeeper]

Once saved always saved simply means that once you enter into new birth and receive eternal life it can never be taken away from you since it is eternal. God had the foresight to see that you would abide in Him so that through that foreknowledge He could see that you would never fall so far as to forsake faith, making new birth authentic. That is the gift of being born-again and entering into the new creation.

 

[Ave Maria]

You can lose your salvation. That's why it's important to go to confession and to repent!

[BIBLE]Philippians 2:12[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Hebrews 6:4-6[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]2 Peter 2:20[/BIBLE]

 

[grateful heart]

Once saved always saved simply means that once you enter into new birth and receive eternal life it can never be taken away from you since it is eternal. God had the foresight to see that you would abide in Him so that through that foreknowledge He could see that you would never fall so far as to forsake faith, making new birth authentic. That is the gift of being born-again and entering into the new creation

ahhhhhhhh Once saved always saved , oh ok. you actually believe that? hmm interesting. What about the epistles? there are plenty of instances that can take salvation away from you, unless you beleive Paul was wrong but that is another debate

 

[grateful heart]

You can lose your salvation. That's why it's important to go to confession and to repent!

Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Peter 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Amen i agree totally Holly