Secular Totalitarianism

[Dave Ellis]

Exactly! the emboldened part is the point I am making. Dawkins has already made the final conclusion about our experience with God and has now launched a campaign to discredit religion rather than sticking with science.

Except you are completely wrong.

First off, he's a biologist, his scientific work has nothing to do with the existence of a god.

That being said, his argument is we have no evidence that a god exists, therefore it's irrational to believe that one does. If evidence should arise, then that would change things, however that does not describe things as they stand now.

He is not starting with a conclusion, he is taking the position that we should believe that which is evidently true, and we should not believe that which is not evidently true. That's not a final, set in stone conclusion, we should always remain open to new evidence.... however until we find that evidence, we can't justifiably believe the claim.

Had you ever read any of Dawkins work, you'd know full well that your claims about his position is laughably wrong.

In both of the examples I provided the Atheistic scientist and the religious scientist have wondered out of their fields of science. Neither one can continue to claim to be true scientist in the matters of the existence of God or the science of evolution, they have become philosophers.

There's a difference... The existence of god has no demonstrable evidence, so it can not be considered scientifically valid.

The theory of evolution on the other hand is one of the most well backed and strongest theories in all of science. It is the cornerstone of biology, biology literally makes no sense without it.

Philosophy doesn't even enter into the question there, the only people who think there's a controversy surrounding evolution are uneducated Christian fundamentalists and their scientifically illiterate followers. Not to be insulting, however in this discussion their opinions are completely irrelevant because they don't have any clue what they're talking about.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So has institutionalized communism. But you don't count the Christian Church against Christianity, and you count communism against secularism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

The irony is that the Soviet Union was not a secular nation.

 

[Colter]

So has institutionalized communism. But you don't count the Christian Church against Christianity, and you count communism against secularism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I see your point but I don't think you understand my position or are giving me credit for owning responsibility for the religion that I am, by association, affiliated with even though I don't believe in the terrible things that it is guilty of. I would say that Christianity as a religion departed almost immediately from the original gospel and practice of non-violence and even non-coercion of Jesus. But I will not use that as some sort of cop out for the rest of the deplorable history of the Christian church as an institution. That history is a fact. There are still Westborough Baptist types that we have to contend with by association.

Just as I don't believe in the behavior and practices of the Christian religion in the past, I feel certain that you don't believe in the actions of some of the secularist movements but they are factual. The OP was written before some of these terrible secularist-totalitarian movements of the 20th century.

"The complete secularization of science, education, industry, and society can lead only to disaster. During the first third of the twentieth century Urantians killed more human beings than were killed during the whole of the Christian dispensation up to that time. And this is only the beginning of the dire harvest of materialism and secularism; still more terrible destruction is yet to come."​

 

[Dave Ellis]

I see your point but I don't think you understand my position or are giving me credit for owning responsibility for the religion that I am, by association, affiliated with even though I don't believe in the terrible things that it is guilty of. I would say that Christianity as a religion departed almost immediately from the original gospel and practice of non-violence and even non-coercion of Jesus. But I will not use that as some sort of cop out for the rest of the deplorable history of the Christian church as an institution. That history is a fact. There are still Westborough Baptist types that we have to contend with by association.

Just as I don't believe in the behavior and practices of the Christian religion in the past, I feel certain that you don't believe in the actions of some of the secularist movements but they are factual. The OP was written before some of these terrible secularist-totalitarian movements of the 20th century.

"The complete secularization of science, education, industry, and society can lead only to disaster. During the first third of the twentieth century Urantians killed more human beings than were killed during the whole of the Christian dispensation up to that time. And this is only the beginning of the dire harvest of materialism and secularism; still more terrible destruction is yet to come."​

Name one totalitarian state that had a secular government.

 

[Colter]

First off, he's a biologist, his scientific work has nothing to do with the existence of a god.

That being said, his argument is we have no evidence that a god exists, therefore it's irrational to believe that one does. If evidence should arise, then that would change things, however that does not describe things as they stand now.

* Dawkins and all other scientist should remain within their felids with their facts when representing their disciplines. Religion isn't science and true science isn't religion, they are widely separated domains.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Exactly! the emboldened part is the point I am making. Dawkins has already made the final conclusion about our experience with God and has now launched a campaign to discredit religion rather than sticking with science.

In both of the examples I provided the Atheistic scientist and the religious scientist have wondered out of their fields of science. Neither one can continue to claim to be true scientist in the matters of the existence of God or the science of evolution, they have become philosophers.

Dawkins is not atheism's Jesus, I could care less about what he thinks, except theists keep bringing him up so I have to keep on mentioning exactly how little he really matters. Which is annoying.

Most atheists don't care enough about religion to even talk about it, so thanks for unfortunately basing your general perception of atheism on the loud and obnoxious antitheists who make up an extreme minority of atheism. Again. We've addressed this before, most atheists aren't like that.

True statement, here I note that, as much as I dislike Dawkins, he at least has the honesty to admit that while he sometimes does use scientific evidence to support his position on gods, he is in fact being a philosopher when he does it, not a scientist (although, not a particularly great philosopher).

 

[Colter]

Name one totalitarian state that had a secular government.

Secularism and religions are movements, belief's with fluctuating powers and influence within states, kingdoms and empires at various times within the history of the body politic of given nations. Their isn't a permanent sign at border crossings that says "welcome to the totalitarian state of...." In one age Rome was dominated by emperor worship, at another time Christianity. A secular state today may become a secular totalitarian or fascist state in the future. Once a secular state devolves into a totalitarian regime it's no longer a neutral entity, it has now determined its values are best for all, it seeks to assert its ideals against contenders.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Secularism and religions are movements, belief's with fluctuating powers and influence within states, kingdoms and empires at various times within the history of the body politic of given nations. Their isn't a permanent sign at border crossings that says "welcome to the totalitarian state of...." In one age Rome was dominated by emperor worship, at another time Christianity. A secular state today may become a secular totalitarian or fascist state in the future. Once a secular state devolves into a totalitarian regime it's no longer a neutral entity, it has now determined its values are best for all, it seeks to assert its ideals against contenders.

So I say again, name one secular totalitarian state.

 

[Gene2memE]

Secularism and religions are movements, belief's with fluctuating powers and influence within states, kingdoms and empires at various times within the history of the body politic of given nations.

Secluarism is not a movement in the same way religions are, it is a principle. It does not have power, it is an idea - that religions have no business in the activities of the state, and also that the state has no business in the activities of religion (beyond protecting citizens and their rights).

Religions have set doctrines and behaviours they expect of their members. They are group identifiers.

Secularism has no set of doctrines beyond the split between religion and the functions of governance. You can even have a secular state that has an official church.

Secularism is a description of a process, not an active movement.

 

[Colter]

So I say again, name one secular totalitarian state.

It's an ism, its like a pop cultural movement more than a rigidly defined state. In the context of how the UB uses the term secular totalitarian-ism it's more like secular humanism as a prevailing atmosphere in a given state.

The OP is purporting first an emerging North American society free from the dominance of a totalitarian Christian church as the prevailing force in Europe. Then it talks about "The complete secularization of science, education, industry....." So I would say America is leaning godless-materialistic in its prevailing culture. China is an Atheist State so that would be one where secular neutrality has been overridden in favor of a godless ideology and the suppression of region. North Korea is an insane Atheist nightmare where even the term secular starved to death. Most of Europe with the exception of the Vatican State is leaning godless-materialistic in its prevailing worldview. Those are the bigger ones.

The OP points out that most Christians are unwittingly secularist on the motivation of their lives.

 

[Dave Ellis]

It's an ism, its like a pop cultural movement more than a rigidly defined state. In the context of how the UB uses the term secular totalitarian-ism it's more like secular humanism as a prevailing atmosphere in a given state.

The OP is purporting first an emerging North American society free from the dominance of a totalitarian Christian church as the prevailing force in Europe. Then it talks about "The complete secularization of science, education, industry....." So I would say America is leaning godless-materialistic in its prevailing culture. China is an Atheist State so that would be one where secular neutrality has been overridden in favor of a godless ideology and the suppression of region. North Korea is an insane Atheist nightmare where even the term secular starved to death. Most of Europe with the exception of the Vatican State is leaning godless-materialistic in its prevailing worldview. Those are the bigger ones.

The OP points out that most Christians are unwittingly secularist on the motivation of their lives.

Ok, so since we don't have an example of any totalitarian state which has been decidedly secular, how are you attempting to make a case that secularism leads to totalitarianism in any way?

 

[quatona]

godless-materialistic

 

[Colter]

Ok, so since we don't have an example of any totalitarian state which has been decidedly secular, how are you attempting to make a case that secularism leads to totalitarianism in any way?

Because it has. When the old fears of religion faded away and mankind began to think outside of the box, the ideas he dreamed up in his new found freedom haven't always been a bucolic secular utopia. Today there are people on this forum who imply that religion is an insanity, a product of our imagination, that we are uneducated, illiterate etc. Its all about motive.

 

[Colter]

I think this excerpt hones in ot it better:

"At the time of this revelation, the prevailing intellectual and philosophical climate of both European and American life is decidedly secular — humanistic. For three hundred years Western thinking has been progressively secularized. Religion has become more and more a nominal influence, largely a ritualistic exercise. The majority of professed Christians of Western civilization are unwittingly actual secularists.​

So secular humanism as a movement would be a more appropriate term.

I have often wondered myself when certain political groups express their fear of religions influence on current western culture just where and what they mean? We could say homosexuality, gay marriage and abortion but my gosh, what? Creationism would be another but????

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because it has.

I've asked you twice for an example of secularism leading to totalitarianism, and you've failed to give an example.

So, if it has, where has it then?

When the old fears of religion faded away and mankind began to think outside of the box, the ideas he dreamed up in his new found freedom haven't always been a bucolic secular utopia. Today there are people on this forum who imply that religion is an insanity, a product of our imagination, that we are uneducated, illiterate etc. Its all about motive.

People criticizing your religious views on the internet equals totalitarianism? Is that really the argument you're trying to make?

 

[Colter]

I've asked you twice for an example of secularism leading to totalitarianism, and you've failed to give an example.

So, if it has, where has it then?



People criticizing your religious views on the internet equals totalitarianism? Is that really the argument you're trying to make?

No, you are pretending to be dence again. I've given you the explanation, if you don't agree then that's ok.

The anti religious meme is a prevailing attitude all across the spectrum of education, science, pop culture etc. you take acception to that because you are one of them.

 

[Gene2memE]

The anti religious meme is a prevailing attitude all across the spectrum of education, science, pop culture etc. you take acception to that because you are one of them.

I see no evidence of the prevailing attitudes in education, science or pop culture being anti religious, or anti religious attitudes even being commonplace.

Education teaches about religion. Public education doesn't (or shouldn't) explicitly favour one over the other. Private education can, and does, favour one religious view.

Science generally ignores religion (Gould's "non overlapping magisteria), unless its looking at specific aspects and how they relate to the nature of the world or man. For example, "what parts of the brain are most active when thinking about God?"

Pop culture ignores religion. When it does pay attention to it, its a wildly mixed bag, sometimes damming, sometimes praising, often completely misunderstanding.

Again, secularism is not anti-theism.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No, you are pretending to be dence again. I've given you the explanation, if you don't agree then that's ok.

The anti religious meme is a prevailing attitude all across the spectrum of education, science, pop culture etc. you take acception to that because you are one of them.

So where does totalitarianism enter into the equation?

Not giving your cherished beliefs any special standing (or viewing them with any credibility for that matter) again does not equal totalitarianism.

 

[Colter]

So where does totalitarianism enter into the equation?

Not giving your cherished beliefs any special standing (or viewing them with any credibility for that matter) again does not equal totalitarianism.

The total secular "totalitarian" enters the equation when a God centered society is replaced by a primarily secular society of mechanistic naturalism. A predominantly humanistic ideology pervades the culture, religion is greatly compartmentalized, neutered, ineffective as a guide. The formerly religiously interested demographic is diminished in such a cultural development.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The total secular "totalitarian" enters the equation when a God centered society is replaced by a primarily secular society of mechanistic naturalism. A predominantly humanistic ideology pervades the culture, religion is greatly compartmentalized, neutered, ineffective as a guide. The formerly religiously interested demographic is diminished in such a cultural development.

So in other words, unless your beliefs get special consideration, it's a totalitarian state.

Good to know.