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Secular Totalitarianism

Paradoxum

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There's alot of words in the OP, but not alot of substance. It most seems like alot of unexplained claims.

What is a secular totalitarianism, and why is it coming?

What is the 'devastating influence of twentieth-century secularism'? Women's rights? Less racism? Crime reduction? Increased life expectancy? Less poverty? Higher education? Space-travel? Gay people treated humanely?

'Without God, neither freedom and liberty, nor property and wealth will lead to peace.' Why? Europe is at peace now... it was at war when Christianity had more influence.

Alot of atheists are liberals... and liberalism is the opposite of totalitarianism.
 
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Colter

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There's alot of words in the OP, but not alot of substance. It most seems like alot of unexplained claims.

What is a secular totalitarianism, and why is it coming?

What is the 'devastating influence of twentieth-century secularism'? Women's rights? Less racism? Crime reduction? Increased life expectancy? Less poverty? Higher education? Space-travel? Gay people treated humanely?

'Without God, neither freedom and liberty, nor property and wealth will lead to peace.' Why? Europe is at peace now... it was at war when Christianity had more influence.

Alot of atheists are liberals... and liberalism is the opposite of totalitarianism.

The OP was written in 1934. See 20th century Communism and other godless political movements. North Korea is a good example of a current failing totalitarian state. 60,000,000 people died in WWII as the result of Nazism and it's totalitarian ideals.

The OP also addressed the ongoing effort by Atheist to discredit religion.
 
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Paradoxum

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The OP was written in 1934. See 20th century Communism and other godless political movements. North Korea is a good example of a current failing totalitarian state. 60,000,000 people died in WWII as the result of Nazism and it's totalitarian ideals.

What does this have to do with the liberal democracies we live in though?

Some atheists are murderers, some aren't. Some godless movements were totalitarian, and some aren't. You can't point to one type, and say that all are like that.

The OP also addressed the ongoing effort by Atheist to discredit religion.

What about it? I agree with atheists trying to discredit religion.
 
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bhsmte

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For one who is so free to think for yourself you sure do think a lot like Rand.

Altruism

"Altruism or selflessness is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious traditions and secular worldviews, though the concept of "others" toward whom concern should be directed can vary among cultures and religions. Altruism or selflessness is the opposite of selfishness."​

To be rattled, one would have to take the Urantia book seriously. I don't.
 
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Colter

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What does this have to do with the liberal democracies we live in though?

Some atheists are murderers, some aren't. Some godless movements were totalitarian, and some aren't. You can't point to one type, and say that all are like that.



What about it? I agree with atheists trying to discredit religion.

The totalitarian label doesn't fit "liberal democracies" however Atheistic secularist aren't content to coexist with the religious, today they join Christian forums and try to discredit peoples faith.
 
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quatona

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What did the 20th century teach us about absolutism and totalitarianism?
Until the 19th century it was unheard of that you could establish an absolutist/totalitarian regime (or even only wagering a war) without claiming to have a God supporting you. Political power was not to be had without the support of religion. The two went hand in hand.
Which lead many to the (as we see now: false) conclusion that the two are necessarily linked.
This view needed to be corrected in the 20th century: We learned that establishing an absolutist/totalitarian regime became even possible without a supporting religion and appeal to a transcendent power.
That much is conceded.
However, the idea that secularism is somewhat linked to totalitarianism (and religion is the cure of absolutism) is absurd in view of thousands of years of history of totalitariamism.
 
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Colter

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What did the 20th century teach us about absolutism and totalitarianism?
Until the 19th century it was unheard of that you could establish an absolutist/totalitarian regime (or even only wagering a war) without claiming to have a God supporting you. Political power was not to be had without the support of religion. The two went hand in hand.
Which lead many to the (as we see now: false) conclusion that the two are necessarily linked.
This view needed to be corrected in the 20th century: We learned that establishing an absolutist/totalitarian regime became even possible without a supporting religion and appeal to a transcendent power.
That much is conceded.
However, the idea that secularism is somewhat linked to totalitarianism (and religion is the cure of absolutism) is absurd in view of thousands of years of history of totalitariamism.

Thank you, that's a real contribution in rebuttal to the OP as well as a good point. We certainly don't want to return to the ecclesiastical totalitarianism which, as you rightly pointed out, was dominant for thousands of years in all cultures. The ideal embodied within the original gospel of Jesus was God as dominant in the heart of the individual believer. Collectively, such believers, each formulating their own understanding of God, were what Jesus referred to as "the kingdom of heaven." In the failure for Jesus's early followers to live up to his ideals, the institutional church became a destructive and even evil substitute.

And so once again we essentially had the reestablishment of the Sanhedrin inside of Christianity. Jesus had stretched the thinking of his followers as far as he could away from fasts and forms but unfortunately a gallon won't fit into a quart. All the same negative influences reasserted themselves in what would become the totalitarian Christian church.
 
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Gene2memE

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This has been said before, but secular is not the same as atheist.

I'm an atheist, but I'm all for people being able to believe and worship as they fit.

As long as they/their representative institutions don't believe that their beliefs also give them the right to tell me what I can and cannot do.

Secular----->totalitarianism

Nope. Not even close.

Secular states - those that espouse a non-overlap between the public (government) spheres and personal/religious spheres - generally have greater degrees of personal freedom than states that are less secular or overtly religious.

Officially atheist states, exemplified by Cuba and North Korea, aren't secular, as the religious sphere doesn't official exist, or is officially suppressed.

Generally, suppression of beliefs is also correlated with suppression of freedoms in other areas and authoritrian or totalitarian regimes.

Secularism is generally attributable with open regimes with classical Liberal governmental structures. If you look at countries that have the highest degrees of personal freedom, they also tend to be among the least religious or most secular states. This is particularly true for Western, Liberal democratic nations.

Nations that top freedom indexes - such as New Zealand, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, Australia - are closely correlated with a low importance of religion in the country.

Many of the most religiously repressive countries - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Burma, Somalia, Sudan - are also among those where religion is the most important.

Religion is also important for authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, if only as a competing power structure, or a convenient scapegoat for their own failures.
Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan
Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan

Communism is the result of secularist eliminating the guidance of religious ideals resulting in a totally secular ideology.

Communism is an economic and social movement, first and foremost. Marx and Engles could have eliminated the enforced atheism from the communist ideology with very few implications for the rest of the system.

Unfortunately, their particular formulation of communism was essentially a conversationalist ideology that couldn't suffer competing power structures within the society, so elimination of the power of religious institutions was deemed necessary for the survival of the 'revolution'. If communist philosophers and ideologues had been more accommodationist and less confrontational, its interesting to speculate how different Russian and indeed global history could have been.

Communism is the result of eliminating capitalism in the economy and class distinctions in society, resulting in a command economy that centralises power in the hands of an a few, leaving the entire edifice open to strong-arming and authoritarian exploitation.
 
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Colter

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This has been said before, but secular is not the same as atheist.

I'm an atheist, but I'm all for people being able to believe and worship as they fit.

As long as they/their representative institutions don't believe that their beliefs also give them the right to tell me what I can and cannot do.



Nope. Not even close.

Secular states - those that espouse a non-overlap between the public (government) spheres and personal/religious spheres - generally have greater degrees of personal freedom than states that are less secular or overtly religious.

Officially atheist states, exemplified by Cuba and North Korea, aren't secular, as the religious sphere doesn't official exist, or is officially suppressed.

Generally, suppression of beliefs is also correlated with suppression of freedoms in other areas and authoritrian or totalitarian regimes.

Secularism is generally attributable with open regimes with classical Liberal governmental structures. If you look at countries that have the highest degrees of personal freedom, they also tend to be among the least religious or most secular states. This is particularly true for Western, Liberal democratic nations.

Nations that top freedom indexes - such as New Zealand, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, Australia - are closely correlated with a low importance of religion in the country.

Many of the most religiously repressive countries - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Burma, Somalia, Sudan - are also among those where religion is the most important.

Religion is also important for authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, if only as a competing power structure, or a convenient scapegoat for their own failures.
Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan
Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan



Communism is an economic and social movement, first and foremost. Marx and Engles could have eliminated the enforced atheism from the communist ideology with very few implications for the rest of the system.

Unfortunately, their particular formulation of communism was essentially a conversationalist ideology that couldn't suffer competing power structures within the society, so elimination of the power of religious institutions was deemed necessary for the survival of the 'revolution'. If communist philosophers and ideologues had been more accommodationist and less confrontational, its interesting to speculate how different Russian and indeed global history could have been.

Communism is the result of eliminating capitalism in the economy and class distinctions in society, resulting in a command economy that centralises power in the hands of an a few, leaving the entire edifice open to strong-arming and authoritarian exploitation.

Agreed, however I think you are not understanding the context of the term "secular totalitarianism." It's not saying that anything secular is totalitarian, rather it's distinguishing between the coexistence of the secular and religious. When either one asserts it's dominance then we have an unhealthy dominance.

In the OP those who had achieved liberation from ecclesiastical domination weren't content with mere coexistence, now they work to eliminate or discredit religious people.
 
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quatona

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In the OP those who had achieved liberation from ecclesiastical domination weren't content with mere coexistence, now they work to eliminate or discredit religious people.
In which, of course "eliminating" and "discrediting" are two entirely different things - seeing that the latter isn´t in conflict with coexistence, but part of it.
So lumping the two together and discussing them in the same breath is the kind of lazy thinking I was referring to earlier.
Religion has just lost its former special status of being sacrosanct, and while you may wish back the good ol´ days, I definitely welcome this development. "Elimination" is something completely different.
 
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Colter

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In which, of course "eliminating" and "discrediting" are two entirely different things - seeing that the latter isn´t in conflict with coexistence, but part of it.
So lumping the two together and discussing them in the same breath is the kind of lazy thinking I was referring to earlier.
Religion has just lost its former special status of being sacrosanct, and while you may wish back the good ol´ days, I definitely welcome this development. "Elimination" is something completely different.

Are you so accustomed to rebelling against anything a religious person has to say that you don't take the time to read??????

We certainly don't want to return to the ecclesiastical totalitarianism which, as you rightly pointed out, was dominant for thousands of years in all cultures.
 
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quatona

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Are you so accustomed to rebelling against anything a religious person has to say
Look, this kind of rhethoric isn´t helping your case or credibility.
that you don't take the time to read??????
I did read that, and I since I didn´t say nor mean to say nor imply you wanted to return to religious totalitarianism, it seems more like you didn´t read or understand what you quoted and replied to.
The actual point, in a nutshell, was: Being contradicted, having your views scrutinized and or attempted to be discredited doesn´t amount to "elimination" and is not in conflict with coexistence but part of it. Apparently that´s a comparably new experience for religious people (because else they wouldn´t lump it together with "elimination"), but I am sure you guys will get used to it and learn to handle it without letting it feed persecution complexes and such.
 
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Colter

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Look, this kind of rhethoric isn´t helping your case or credibility.

I did read that, and I since I didn´t say nor mean to say nor imply you wanted to return to religious totalitarianism, it seems more like you didn´t read or understand what you quoted and replied to.
The actual point, in a nutshell, was: Being contradicted, having your views scrutinized and or attempted to be discredited doesn´t amount to "elimination" and is not in conflict with coexistence but part of it. Apparently that´s a comparably new experience for religious people (because else they wouldn´t lump it together with "elimination"), but I am sure you guys will get used to it and learn to handle it without letting it feed persecution complexes and such.


Oh, this must have meant something that it didn't say and I missed the parabolic intent "while you may wish back the good ol´ days, I definitely welcome this development."

I will just take your reply's with more of a grain of salt and not assume you mean what you say. ;)



>
 
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Paradoxum

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The totalitarian label doesn't fit "liberal democracies" however Atheistic secularist aren't content to coexist with the religious, today they join Christian forums and try to discredit peoples faith.

You know there's a difference between disagreeing with something, and banning it?

I'm against religion, but I'm in favour of freedom of religion. That's part of what it means to be liberal. You let other people do what they want with their lives, as long as it doesn't violate others (roughly put).
 
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Colter

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You know there's a difference between disagreeing with something, and banning it?

I'm against religion, but I'm in favour of freedom of religion. That's part of what it means to be liberal. You let other people do what they want with their lives, as long as it doesn't violate others (roughly put).

I bet that after a couple generations the kids that live in those nutral, mostly White, Euro-Atheist countries begin to rebel against their parents doctrines of doubt. In another 100 years, if those nations still exist some of those young people may be on this site promoting personal faith in the Heavenly Father.
 
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Colter

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They join Christian forums and try to discredid peoples faith!

OH MY NOT-GOD!!! The horror!!!

How dare they! Next step will be public executions!

Or herd them into cattle cars, where everything is going to be ok PaPa, off to the "showers" .
 
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quatona

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Oh, this must have meant something that it didn't say and I missed the parabolic intent "while you may wish back the good ol´ days, I definitely welcome this development."

I will just take your reply's with more of a grain of salt and not assume you mean what you say. ;)
A better idea would be to assume I mean what I say, and to not assume that I mean something that the context makes clear I don´t mean.
Like, in the given example, the part you quoted was preceded by:

Religion has just lost its former special status of being sacrosanct, and while you may wish back the good ol´ days, I definitely welcome this development

It was not preceded by a statement like "Religion has supported totalitarianism, and while you many wish back the good ol´ days", in which case your call "Are you so accustomed to rebelling against anything a religious person has to say that you don't take the time to read?????? [:We certainly don't want to return to the ecclesiastical totalitarianism which, as you rightly pointed out, was dominant for thousands of years in all cultures.]" would have addressed my statement.
In the given context not so much.
 
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quatona

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Or herd them into cattle cars, where everything is going to be ok PaPa, off to the "showers" .
gott-mit-uns.png
 
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