Secular Morality

[Voegelin]

Internet forums, like this one, are infiltrated by those who wish to spread their beliefs about their version of morality.

Welcome to Christian forums.

Finding a lack of mainstream, traditional Christian ethics and morality in "Ethics and Morality?"

 

[Voegelin]

Imagine you were living in ancient Rome and the typical Roman mistakenly thought you ate human flesh. Imagine now what actually happened -- Christians wrote Apologetics to open up a dialog with Romans and show that Christians actually had some decent morals after all, and were merely misunderstood.

That is the situation atheists and other non-Christians who live in America find themselves in today.

Oh really. Misinformation that bad?

I haven't seen atheists be the target of books such as the recent ones below which demonize Christians:

“American Fascists--The Christian Right and the War on America” by Chris Hedges

“Religion Gone Bad: Hidden Dangers of the Christian Right” by Mel White

“Why the Christian Right Is Wrong” by Robin Meyers

“The Left Hand of God: Taking Back Our Country from the Religious Right” by Michael Lerner

“Theocons: Secular America Under Siege” by Damon Linker

“American Theocracy” by Kevin Phillips

“The Baptizing of America: The Religious Right’s Plan for The Rest of Us” by James Rudin

“Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism” by Michelle Goldberg.

New York Times and others in the liberal media have given all these books great PR. In fact, "American Fascists" was written by the New York Times former Bureau Chief for the Middle East.

You know, right now in China, atheists are tossing Catholic priests in prison for being Catholic. The 20th century saw the most brutal regimes in world history. And who did we see lead them? Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Bela Kun, Pol Pot--all atheists. Over 100 million people murdered by their own governments in the 20th century--governments which were officially atheist. But where does the New York Times see fascism and oppression raising its ugly head? Not in Caracass where Chavez, finally declaring he is a communist, just got the power to rule by decree and where he is going after the churches, not in China where atheists have dynamited thousands of Buddhist churches of hillsides, imprisoned Christians and tortured and executed Falun gong members, not from Al Qaeda, not from Baathist dead enders....no...the New York Times ...the paper of record...sees the greatest threat as coming from....Christians.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Oh really. Misinformation that bad?

I haven't seen atheists be the target of books such as the recent ones below which demonize Christians

You're kidding, right? Christians don't demonize atheists? Not at all?

I never said that atheists don't fight back. But if you can't see that atheists are demonized, even at CF, then I don't know what will open your eyes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JohnLocke]

Secular Morality:

Ethics and Morality both generally deal with codes of behavior, but what distinguishes Morality from Ethics is the value that the behavior has in relevance to some extra-ethical thing.

Most Secular Morality is not based upon "experts" but upon Ideals: Reason, for example, was the great guiding principle of Enlightenment Morality (though arguably better understood by Kant and Hume than Berkeley and Mill).

Communism, Fascism, Socialism, Anarchism all had there own "First Principles" (generally and respectively, the social collective, the State, and individual freedom).

It is without doubt that certain individuals possessed of talent, wit, connections and/or inclination did on occasion express these ideals and the implementation of these ideals in more or less practical terms (that is to say ethics) but these explications never claimed, to my understanding, the total encapsulation of the First Principle, rather they were incomplete works on the application and/or nature of the First Principle.

As far as your "infiltrated" comment. Two observations:
1. It is wrong to say one "infiltrated" when you sent a general invitation.
2. Should you not be gladdened that the "unbelievers" are readily accessible here, so that you might minister to them and show them the error of their ways, that they may delight in the grace of God? Does not your Christian sect profess that it is the duty of all to minister? You would think the savings in travel time alone would be sufficient benefit.

 

[Mickey1953]

Sad,
That the fantasy of non christians supposedly having no moral or ethical principles is still around.

Being a non-believer at one time, there were many times I visited Christian Churches and found I could not accept what I was experiencing. Not, until I saw the love of God in a neighbor, who was a Chrisitan, and loved as Jesus. She could see my face and heart without condemnation.

I was lost. I discovered as time went on, there would always be Chrisitians that did not love like Jesus. I am thankful for the ones that do, and I have tried to live my life as such now. My life changed because of her testimony. Not by words always, but actions. Most of the congregation was not happy with a red dance- skin dressed, single - mom. But, she saw me differently. Over time, I came to the Lord. Through my neighbor’s love, by the power of the Holy Spirit... and simple love like Jesus – I decided I wanted what she had in her life. I wanted to know that kind of love. Unlike your statement I was one that was lost with low morals and sincere love was not anywhere near me…

I know people that have high morals that are not believers. We converse. We share. They have lived a life better than me. It is not up to me to convert, only share. I do it, because I know how my life has changed. Are they interested? Not always.


All I know is what I did not have before Jesus Christ. He saved me, and my life is better. Not without burdens or troubles, but better, because I am better, thankfully my family is better. Perfect? No. But, I choose Jesus as my life belief, my Savior, to make it through this world. No one can prove to another God is or God is not. God exists for me. I can share why I believe. And I do when I can with all that I am.
One of the neatest things about Jesus of the Bible is, He hung out with persons like me - people with sin. He loved me before I loved Him, and before I committed my life to Him. My belief in Jesus is simple. He is. And I believe I am a better person and a person of peace and love because of knowing Him. Jesus saved a woman from stoning - that could have been me.

And I am grateful for this forum so I can share. But, again all I can do is share. Choice is up to each of us. I cannot walk in anyone elses’ shoes, but I can share mine.


A Believer in the way Jesus loved and lived
Mickey

 

[CrusaderofReason]

Secular morality is nearly the same as theist morality. The ten commandments aren't anything special. I don't need a god to tell me that killing a man is wrong. I don't need a god to lay down the basic rules of society. These are just basic human drives. Self preservation of a species makes it so you don't want to kill your own species.

 

[dad]

..deleted

 

[crazyfingers]

Without God as a guide, secular morality relies on experts to proceed.

It takes no expert to behave by the golden rule with empathy for others.

Man, not God, becomes the basis for the rule of law.

Like it or not, believe in a god or not, it's still people who make the laws. And note how little even religionists agree on what their god wants.

Like it or not, humans make the laws. And if religionists tried to make laws based on their holy books, they would still never agree and a lot of people would suffer under religious persecution.

And whatever knowledge men may have gained in the past 2000 years, they have not shed the corruption, greed and dishonesty.

I suggest that religion is no cure. Look at all the religious wars.

Internet forums, like this one, are infiltrated by those who wish to spread their beliefs about their version of morality. To cause confusion among Christians and to "change minds."

Actually, the main reason why I post here is to protect my rights and to defend the separation of church and state.

And separation of church and state is extremely important because people still try to impose their religions onto others.

Do you not know that Jesus Christ died for everyone so that sins would be forgiven? That He said, "No one comes to the father but through me."?

I know of no reason to believe that.

If what I just wrote isn't true then it doesn't matter. But what I just wrote IS the truth and nothing else matters.

Pascals wager has been refuted many times.

<Removed>

 

[crazyfingers]

Then why do unbelievers bother coming here? I have no interest in cars so I don't go to any forums about them.




God bless,
Eddie

To defend my rights and the rights of others and to defend the separation of church and state.

 

[Valgaav]

Do you not know that Jesus Christ died for everyone so that sins would be forgiven? That He said, "No one comes to the father but through me."? If what I just wrote isn't true then it doesn't matter. But what I just wrote IS the truth and nothing else matters.

You appear to be against secular morality, but this quoted portion here shows that apparently we can do what we want, as we've been forgiven in advance.

So if it wasn't for secularists, god knows what would happen.

 

[DArceri]

Secular morality is nearly the same as theist morality. The ten commandments aren't anything special. I don't need a god to tell me that killing a man is wrong. I don't need a god to lay down the basic rules of society. These are just basic human drives. Self preservation of a species makes it so you don't want to kill your own species.

What about guilt? Ok, so you know that killing is wrong due to rules of society but, you are not addressing the issue of why we feel the emotion of guilt. If you accidently killed someone you loved with all your heart (another emotion that needs an explanation) in a car accident while you were drunk, wouldn't that tear you up for the rest of your life. You would feel the pain and guilt forever.

 

[Eudaimonist]

What about guilt?

What about guilt? Why wouldn't this exist in a nontheistic universe?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DArceri]

What about guilt? Why wouldn't this exist in a nontheistic universe?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Please explain.

 

[DArceri]

What about guilt? Why wouldn't this exist in a nontheistic universe?


eudaimonia,

Mark

I agree with you by the way. I was just pointing out to CrusaderofReason that his explanation fell short.

 

[TooCurious]

What about guilt? Ok, so you know that killing is wrong due to rules of society but, you are not addressing the issue of why we feel the emotion of guilt. If you accidently killed someone you loved with all your heart (another emotion that needs an explanation) in a car accident while you were drunk, wouldn't that tear you up for the rest of your life. You would feel the pain and guilt forever.

Guilt, I think, is a function of empathy, and empathy is a useful emotion for an interdependent, social species like humans.

 

[mpshiel]

What is it with American Christians and trying to link all evil to communism? I mean, America, a very Christian country, one that tells everyone they are a very Christian country has produced some pretty horrific examples (no, I won't be talking about a leader who says he makes decisions because God is talking to him and names things Operation Crusade) - like how about last year the Catholic church saying, "Yeah, our leaders did sexually abuse tens of thousands of people." Is molesting children bad? Is building concentration camps bad? Is sterilizing people against thier will bad? Because all these have ALSO happened with the best of intentions by good Christians leading the charge against the sins of (insert the blank) - you want to know the great worry of 1912 Christians: black men dating white women - that's why in just over the last hundred years over 2,000 lynchings of black men have occured...by good Christian folk. That's why in 1912 a movie called, Birth of a Nation was shown in the White house to the president and the supreme court to great acclaim (of course, since a few of the judges on the supreme court used to BE clansmen, that is sort of a given) - a good Christian film. Of course today we see it as the horrific mistake and degredation of one group of people based entire on skin colour that it is - but lets face it, Christians, in thier organized and disorganized way can and continue to create a lot of harm in thier determination that God is leading thier morals (and that they WILL force others to follow them).

Is that what Christian forums is about now, counting coup on which murders, rapes, molestations, economic robbery are being done all tallied by religion? Brava!

 

[DLaurier]

We are talking about secular (non religious) morality.

 

[quatona]

Without God as a guide, secular morality relies on experts to proceed.

Without men having the ability to spread his wings and fly they would have to walk.

Man, not God, becomes the basis for the rule of law.

Which is not exactly a problem for someone who doesn´t believe in the existence of a god.

And whatever knowledge men may have gained in the past 2000 years, they have not shed the corruption, greed and dishonesty.

Likewise, your hypothetical god´s existence and the belief in such haven´t either.

Internet forums, like this one, are infiltrated by those who wish to spread their beliefs about their version of morality.

Yes, I have noticed that that´s the main purpose for many Christians to be here.

To cause confusion among Christians and to "change minds."

Whilst some think they can read minds.

Do you not know that Jesus Christ died for everyone so that sins would be forgiven?

Yes, I do not know this.

If what I just wrote isn't true then it doesn't matter.

This is where secular considerations come into play and do matter.

But what I just wrote IS the truth and nothing else matters.

Sure.

 

[eddieJ]

It takes no expert to behave by the golden rule with empathy for others.



Like it or not, believe in a god or not, it's still people who make the laws. And note how little even religionists agree on what their god wants.

Like it or not, humans make the laws. And if religionists tried to make laws based on their holy books, they would still never agree and a lot of people would suffer under religious persecution.



I suggest that religion is no cure. Look at all the religious wars.



Actually, the main reason why I post here is to protect my rights and to defend the separation of church and state.

And separation of church and state is extremely important because people still try to impose their religions onto others.



I know of no reason to believe that.



Pascals wager has been refuted many times.

<Removed>

How is coming to this forum defending your rights? This forum is not a law-making body or part of law enforcement.

God bless,
Eddie

 

[christalee4]

Internet forums, like this one, are infiltrated by those who wish to spread their beliefs about their version of morality. To cause confusion among Christians and to "change minds."

This statement seems to assume that most Christians are like sheep, have weak faith and need continuous bolstering up, and should be cloistered away from other ideas, in the manner of what some theocratic governments do, like in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

There are a wide variety of Christians, who interpret their Scripture in many different ways, and who don't march in lockstep, say, with right wing political causes that claim they define "family values". Thank God for the internet, no?