Secular Moralism

[WirSindBettler]

It means nothing to say it outright. "Justice" is just synonymous with "God". "Righteousness" is just synonymous with "God". You have no independent definition for any ethical term.

"Peace is more important than all justice; and peace was not made for the sake of justice, but justice for the sake of peace."
Martin Luther

I'm saying it is to be expected. There is nothing that God could not do that you would not endorse. Your conception of morality is following orders.

Yep.

 

[Skavau]

"Peace is more important than all justice; and peace was not made for the sake of justice, but justice for the sake of peace."
Martin Luther


Yep.

"Peace" and "Justice" to you are meaningless terms. They are only relevant in so much that God endorses them and they may mean anything he likes. If God was to just declare that "peace" and "justice" were no longer important you would immediately discard them and promote their opposite. That is the sandpit of your supposedly 'objective' values.

You'll forgive me if I don't offer false respect and reverence to your 'values'. I find them hateful.

 

[WirSindBettler]

"Peace" and "Justice" to you are meaningless terms. They are only relevant in so much that God endorses them and they may mean anything he likes. If God was to just declare that "peace" and "justice" were no longer important you would immediately discard them and promote their opposite. That is the sandpit of your supposedly 'objective' values.

You'll forgive me if I don't offer false respect and reverence to your 'values'. I find them hateful.

Forgive me if I say the same to you. I find your "values" dreadfully misaligned.

Also, God is unchanging, so what you said will never happen.

 

[Skavau]

Forgive me if I say the same to you. I find your values dreadfully misaligned.

My values do not promote the infliction of suffering on others. Yours could, if asked to.

 

[WirSindBettler]

My values do not promote the infliction of suffering on others. Yours could, if asked to.

Actually, my "non-existent" values directly prohibit the infliction of suffering on others.

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
Matthew 5:21-24

"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Matthew 5:38-39

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
Matthew 5:43-47

"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either."
Luke 6:27-29

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.""
Matthew 26:52

 

[Skavau]

Actually, my "non-existent" values directly prohibit the infliction of suffering on others.

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
Matthew 5:21-24

"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Matthew 5:38-39

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
Matthew 5:43-47

"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either."
Luke 6:27-29

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.""
Matthew 26:52

Unless of course we're talking about hell. You believe that if I die unsaved that I suffer eternal torture. You support this fate as just. Why? Because God says so.

 

[Skavau]

Also, God is unchanging, so what you said will never happen.

I just saw this edit.

You get no rights in that department. God may well call himself "unchanging" but could easily disregard himself and change something and you would, from your own perspective, have no grounds to dissent. God could call himself both unchanging and changing simultaneously and you would agree and endorse it.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Unless of course we're talking about hell. You believe that if I die unsaved that I suffer eternal torture. You support this fate as just. Why? Because God says so.

No. I support this through experience. I've only been Christian for a little over a year and a half. I spent the vast majority of my life outside of the church. I know the brokenness of the world. In the end however, I have no say in the fate of others. To quote Lewis:

"What can you ever really know of other people's souls—of their temptations, their opportunities, their struggles? One soul in the whole creation you do know and this is the only one whose fate is placed in your hands. If there is a God, you are, in a sense, alone with Him. You cannot put Him off with speculations about your next door neighbours or memories of what you have read in books."

"Do not despair, one of the thieves was saved; do not presume, one of the thieves was damned."
St. Augustine

 

[Skavau]

No. I support this through experience. I've only been Christian for a little over a year and a half. I spent the vast majority of my life outside of the church. I know the brokenness of the world. In the end however, I have no say in the fate of others. To quote Lewis:

Whether or not you have any say in the fate of others is irrelevant - if I die tomorrow, unsaved, you'd support my torture. That's hateful.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Whether or not you have any say in the fate of others is irrelevant - if I was to die tomorrow, unsaved, you'd support my torture. That's hateful.

I wouldn't support it. I would be saddened. At the end of the day, however, your fate is between you and God.

Said the criminal led away in chains to the courtroom, "Whether or not you have any say in the fate of others is irrelevant - if I shall be sent from this room and declared guilty, you'd support my imprisonment. That's hateful."

In the end, I am just as broken and sinful as you. I just have faith in Christ Jesus, who died for my sins on the Cross and rose in glorious Resurrection three days later, and who sits at the right hand of the Father as we speak, together with the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.

Your fate is between you and God. Don't try to place the blame on me and call me hateful for accepting that you chose your fate. I'm not personally responsible for you.

 

[SteveB28]

Yep.

As I said to another, you are not expressing a moral code - you are expressing simple obedience. Whatever you believe your God commands you to do is 'good'. Like Abraham, you would be prepared to plunge that dagger into the throat of your son, if you felt it was what your God expected of you. And your explanation would have to be that 'this is a good thing'!

I am old enough to remember the disgusting 'Nuremburg Defence' from the war trials following World War II. You should research it.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Skavau, if you saw a blind man walking towards a cliff and shouted "Watch out for that huge cliff up there!" what would you say if he turned to you and said "If I were to (of my own free will) disregard your warning and trip on a rock, falling head-first off the cliff into the chasm beyond, you'd be hateful for allowing it."?

 

[WirSindBettler]

As I said to another, you are not expressing a moral code - you are expressing simple obedience. Whatever you believe your God commands you to do is 'good'. Like Abraham, you would be prepared to plunge that dagger into the throat of your son, if you felt it was what your God expected of you. And your explanation would have to be that 'this is a good thing'!

I am old enough to remember the disgusting 'Nuremburg Defence' from the war trials following World War II. You should research it.

You completely misunderstand the undertones within the story of Abraham and Isaac. You should research it.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/why-did-god-tell-abraham-kill-his-son-isaac

 

[SteveB28]

You completely misunderstand the undertones within the story of Abraham and Isaac. You should research it.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/why-did-god-tell-abraham-kill-his-son-isaac

Oh, indeed I have! Have you?

Here is the concluding paragraph of your own resource:

"So, why did Abraham offer his son Isaac? He did so out of obedience--believing that God could raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:19), and also in his obedience he acted out the true sacrifice of the true only begotten son, Jesus."

Can you explain to me why I wouldn't use that very quotation to support my assertion!?

 

[quatona]

Why do some people think secular moralism is supreme over a moral belief based on a religious book?

I don´t think that moral ideas are necessarily bad just because they are expressed in a religious book.
Then again, they aren´t necessarily good, either.

 

[RDKirk]

I thought that morality means what IS right and wrong, not people's beliefs about right and wrong.

There needs to be a better commonly agreed distinction between "community values" and "personal ethics."

A community may have concepts of how its members behave that simply exist as a matter of what has worked and what various power elements have compelled them to do. Those concepts may have nothing at all to do with a fully thought-out concept of "right" and "wrong" or even what "right" and "wrong" are supposed to accomplish. A platypus is just as valid as a penguin--rationality is hit or miss.

A rational ethical concept would consider first the "end good" and then develop the moral calculus that can determine in any situation the proper act that leads to that "end good."

 

[RDKirk]

My values do not promote the infliction of suffering on others.

I don't know what rational calculus you use to determine a "good" action, so I don't know where your ethics might lead.

Yours could, if asked to.

That's true, however I very specifically follow Christ, and there is no cause for me to suspect or expect that Christ will tell me to inflict suffering on others.

 

[KCfromNC]

Skavau, if you saw a blind man walking towards a cliff and shouted "Watch out for that huge cliff up there!" what would you say if he turned to you and said "If I were to (of my own free will) disregard your warning and trip on a rock, falling head-first off the cliff into the chasm beyond, you'd be hateful for allowing it."?

Would you worship the person who dug the hole he fell into and who pointed him right towards it?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

We as Christians don't claim authorship of morality, we point to God on that one.

OK, word it that way if you want. It's still a vacuous naked assertion.

And with this naked assertion, you've rather enthusiastically impaled yourself on the second horn of Euthyphro.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

"This world and the next are rivals. When you please one you displease the other" - Jesus in Islam (Shi'a source).