Secular Humanism

[seekingpurity047]

Hey! I'm not sure if this is really the correct place to post this, however I figured i'd give it a shot. If it gets moved, I totally understand.

Lately, I have been reading a book called, "A Christian Manifesto" by Francis A. Schaeffer, and he came up with a very interesting theory, and I, personally, believe it to be true.

Do you think that Secular Humanism has become the new religion of the State?

The reason I ask this is becuase we (those of the United States... I wouldnm't be included, but I think it equally applies here in Canada, if not moreso) are a state based on the concept of separation of Church and State. Now, by Church, although the original writers of the declaration of independence and the US Constitution intended it to mean that the State does not endorse on Christian church over another, most of us today would understand it to simply mean "religion", but has secular humanism become the new religion of the state? What with all of the focus on issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, divorce, etc.

So, yah, what do you guys think?

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[Ringo84]

Hey! I'm not sure if this is really the correct place to post this, however I figured i'd give it a shot. If it gets moved, I totally understand.

Lately, I have been reading a book called, "A Christian Manifesto" by Francis A. Schaeffer, and he came up with a very interesting theory, and I, personally, believe it to be true.

Do you think that Secular Humanism has become the new religion of the State?

The reason I ask this is becuase we (those of the United States... I wouldnm't be included, but I think it equally applies here in Canada, if not moreso) are a state based on the concept of separation of Church and State. Now, by Church, although the original writers of the declaration of independence and the US Constitution intended it to mean that the State does not endorse on Christian church over another, most of us today would understand it to simply mean "religion", but has secular humanism become the new religion of the state? What with all of the focus on issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, divorce, etc.

So, yah, what do you guys think?

To the glory of God,

Randy

No, I don't think that "secular humanism" has become the new religion of the state. But I do think that the phrase 'secular humanism' has become a buzz-word that's lost its meaning.

I wonder if many of the Christians who use this word (not necesarily you) even know what it means. It's become such a buzz-word; fundamentalists have just labelled anything they don't like as "secular humanism" and ended the argument. Would many of us know a true secular humanist if we saw one?
Ringo

 

[wmc1982]

so what is secular humanism anyway?

 

[artybloke]

so what is secular humanism anyway?

Anything the user of the phrase doesn't like.

 

[seekingpurity047]

so what is secular humanism anyway?

It's a belief that everything revolves around people. Allow me to illustrate by comparing Christian theism to secular Humanism.

Evil

Christian theism: As a result of disobedience to God, which leads to death, the just wrath of God upon us.

Secular Humanism: As a result of people's wrong choices; perhaps they have been influenced by their culture, etc.

What the secular humanist focuses on is humanity. It leaves no room for God. Everything that happens has something relevant to do with humanity, whereas for theists, it is totally relevant to God.

Forgive me for my very broad general description. If anyone wants to better describe it, feel free.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[gwynedd1]

Hey! I'm not sure if this is really the correct place to post this, however I figured i'd give it a shot. If it gets moved, I totally understand.

Lately, I have been reading a book called, "A Christian Manifesto" by Francis A. Schaeffer, and he came up with a very interesting theory, and I, personally, believe it to be true.

Do you think that Secular Humanism has become the new religion of the State?

The reason I ask this is becuase we (those of the United States... I wouldnm't be included, but I think it equally applies here in Canada, if not moreso) are a state based on the concept of separation of Church and State. Now, by Church, although the original writers of the declaration of independence and the US Constitution intended it to mean that the State does not endorse on Christian church over another, most of us today would understand it to simply mean "religion", but has secular humanism become the new religion of the state? What with all of the focus on issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, divorce, etc.

So, yah, what do you guys think?

To the glory of God,

Randy

One of the important things to understand in the arguments of church and state is the logical "fallacy of division". Chruch and state have element concepts. Which of these elements is opposed as to have power in the US Constitution?

Lets look at that fallacy:
Description of Division

The fallacy of Division is committed when a person infers that what is true of a whole must also be true of its constituents and justification for that inference is not provided.
There are two main variants of the general fallacy of Division:
The first type of fallacy of Division is committed when 1) a person reasons that what is true of the whole must also be true of the parts and 2) the person fails to justify that inference with the required degree of evidence. More formally, the "reasoning" follows this sort of pattern:

1. 
   [*]The whole, X, has properties A, B, C, etc.
   [*]Therefore the parts of X have properties A, B, C, etc.

That this line of reasoning is fallacious is made clear by the following case: 4 is an even number. 1 and 3 are parts of 4. Therefore 1 and 3 are even.





Many words with composite elements are vulnerable to this attack. A classic example is kill Vs murder. Murder has elements of kill, unjustified and human. So it is a composite of three concepts or elements.



Lets look at church and state definitions in this context:



This is the proper definition of "state" in the context


A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe.

Here is



Church

1. The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.
2. A specified Christian denomination: the Presbyterian Church.
3. A congregation.

The church and state both have elements of "body" or "group". Our rights granted by the Constitution are as individuals. We are not a democracy or a republic but a modification thereof with protections and rights as individuals. Therefore seperation of church and state is NOT seperation of religeon and politics which is essentially a spurious attempt at the impossible concept of seperating belief and politics.



James Madison was a force behind the prevention of "tyranny of the majority". No body politic or central church has any rights , but only individuals.



[SIZE=+1]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/SIZE]


This is a prohibition on establishing a religeon and it is reserved for the individual to take up such a belief and to enter into politics as such. The attack upon a church only applies to the preference of a group over the individual. It is a fallacy to apply it to religeon. You would do well to learn all such fallacies.



http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Matt 10
16] Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.



God Bless






[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]

 

[BarbB]

Hi Randy - on the recommendation of someone here at CF, I just finished reading Christian Manifesto. Did you see any of the video from Coral Ridge church recently? D. James Kennedy had video from the early 1980's of Schaeffer speaking about the Manifesto. It was great. And sadly, no one paid attention when something could have been done about it.

 

[Ringo84]

Hi Randy - on the recommendation of someone here at CF, I just finished reading Christian Manifesto. Did you see any of the video from Coral Ridge church recently? D. James Kennedy had video from the early 1980's of Schaeffer speaking about the Manifesto. It was great. And sadly, no one paid attention when something could have been done about it.

Coral Ridge? I respect D. James Kennedy's beliefs, but I disagree. "No separation of church and state" indeed. That's easy to say when your religion is the majority.
Ringo

 

[seekingpurity047]

Hi Randy - on the recommendation of someone here at CF, I just finished reading Christian Manifesto. Did you see any of the video from Coral Ridge church recently? D. James Kennedy had video from the early 1980's of Schaeffer speaking about the Manifesto. It was great. And sadly, no one paid attention when something could have been done about it.

Hey BarbB, taht's awesome that you read it. I thought it was a spectacular read! I just finished it today, and it really made me think abhout a lot of things. No, I haven't checked out the video from Coral Ridge Church, frankly, I didn't even hear about it! I would love to check it out sometime, that's for sure!

Another thing about that book is that it really made me think about my future, like... where I should go. And, right now, I'm thinking "maybe law would be better for me since I believe I could glorify God more by defending Him and His church from possible oppressive laws in the future." However, that's all in God's hands, right?

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[BarbB]

Randy - I think that's great that you would go into the Law. Sure could use some cleaning up!

I found this link for the Schaeffer video! Enjoy! http://www.coralridge.org/CRMResCtrsearch.asp?cat=video

 

[knownbeforetime]

You don't need a book to tell you that secular humanism has become the preferred (not saying it's the state religion, not saying Christianity is illegal) religion.

Look at science. Concepts like the gaia hypothesis (that the earth itself is a living organism) can be freely explored (not saying it's universally accepted) but suggest that man is a higher being than the animals (and created with a purpose) and you'll be laughed out of a career.

 

[seekingpurity047]

You don't need a book to tell you that secular humanism has become the preferred (not saying it's the state religion, not saying Christianity is illegal) religion.

Look at science. Concepts like the gaia hypothesis (that the earth itself is a living organism) can be freely explored (not saying it's universally accepted) but suggest that man is a higher being than the animals (and created with a purpose) and you'll be laughed out of a career.

Especially when you consider the whole thing about the debate concerning intelligent design right now in the States. Honestly, I don't see why both can't be taught, especially when you consider placing secular humanism under the religion category. The only problem is that, unless we use the approach that secular humanism is itself a religion, we will not be able to win that battle by legal terms. However, we must! We must make it clear that either you teach both theories OR you teach neither. You can't teach one without the other, unless your a state that recognizes the fusion of church (religion) and state. If you want to have true separation between church and state, both creation and evolution ought to be taught in schools. The same goes with prayer. I don't see why they banned prayer at schools. That's just pathetic! The reason why it's pathetic becuase, instead of having children praying, you're going to have a whole bunch of self-centered children, which, in and of itself, is a religious idea. Bah!

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[knownbeforetime]

Especially when you consider the whole thing about the debate concerning intelligent design right now in the States. Honestly, I don't see why both can't be taught, especially when you consider placing secular humanism under the religion category. The only problem is that, unless we use the approach that secular humanism is itself a religion, we will not be able to win that battle by legal terms. However, we must! We must make it clear that either you teach both theories OR you teach neither. You can't teach one without the other, unless your a state that recognizes the fusion of church (religion) and state. If you want to have true separation between church and state, both creation and evolution ought to be taught in schools. The same goes with prayer. I don't see why they banned prayer at schools. That's just pathetic! The reason why it's pathetic becuase, instead of having children praying, you're going to have a whole bunch of self-centered children, which, in and of itself, is a religious idea. Bah!

To the glory of God,

Randy

Here's my proposal: Do away with public school and give the funding to the parents so they can choose which kind of education they want for their kids. It would get rid of the confusion of teaching different students with different backgrounds conflicting things. (hehe... That almost sounds segregationist... Black schools, white schools, christian schools, jewish schools, atheist schools, boys school, girls school)

 

[artybloke]

Concepts like the gaia hypothesis (that the earth itself is a living organism) can be freely explored (not saying it's universally accepted) but suggest that man is a higher being than the animals (and created with a purpose) and you'll be laughed out of a career.

Humanism, as far as I'm aware, is about putting human beings above everything else. How is a hypothesis that states that the earth is more important than humans, humanist?

Secular Humanism is another of those meaningless catchphrases right-wing preachers are always coming up with so they can plug their latest book tours. It no more exists than other bug-bears, like "The Permissive Society."

 

[seekingpurity047]

Here's my proposal: Do away with public school and give the funding to the parents so they can choose which kind of education they want for their kids. It would get rid of the confusion of teaching different students with different backgrounds conflicting things. (hehe... That almost sounds segregationist... Black schools, white schools, christian schools, jewish schools, atheist schools, boys school, girls school)

That would solve one problem, so I can't help but agree. However, how much do you give to the people of the United States to choose their schools? Surely, if they were in that situation, one school would charge more and so on a so forth. Education would become something that corporations can use to gain profits. Next thing y9ou know, we have the "Macdonald's private school." Serving hamburgers and cheeseburgers all the time... eek...

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[artybloke]

That would solve one problem, so I can't help but agree. However, how much do you give to the people of the United States to choose their schools? Surely, if they were in that situation, one school would charge more and so on a so forth. Education would become something that corporations can use to gain profits. Next thing y9ou know, we have the "Macdonald's private school." Serving hamburgers and cheeseburgers all the time... eek...

To the glory of God,

Randy

Surely that would be ideal - then they could indoctrinate everyone with Good Ol' Yankee Christian Values (PLC) and get rid of such nasty secular humanist rot like equality and justice for all. You know, all that nasty secular humanist rot about loving your neighbour spread by that nasty secular humanist, Jesus of Nazareth?

And while we're at it - let's fill all Yankee kids with MacDonald's burgers. It'll make them all so fat they'd be incapable of invading all those nasty secular humanist nations like Iraq.

Then we could all breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[knownbeforetime]

You're equating Jesus of Nazereth with Iraq? Jesus vs. the dictator that regularly murdered his citizens for cheap thrills? That makes a whole lot of sense....

Jesus Christ was not humanist. If humanist means putting human beings above all else, then Jesus was NOT humanist. The first thing in Jesus' life was His heavenly father. Whatever he saw the father doing, he did. We should follow that example. Put God first and everything else will follow. As far as I know, that's not a humanist thing to do.

As for The School of McDonalds... Maybe it could be like this, if you want to be in the restaurant business, you go to school at McDonalds. If you like science, you go to school at NASA

 

[Ringo84]

Especially when you consider the whole thing about the debate concerning intelligent design right now in the States. Honestly, I don't see why both can't be taught, especially when you consider placing secular humanism under the religion category. The only problem is that, unless we use the approach that secular humanism is itself a religion, we will not be able to win that battle by legal terms. However, we must! We must make it clear that either you teach both theories OR you teach neither. You can't teach one without the other, unless your a state that recognizes the fusion of church (religion) and state. If you want to have true separation between church and state, both creation and evolution ought to be taught in schools. The same goes with prayer. I don't see why they banned prayer at schools. That's just pathetic! The reason why it's pathetic becuase, instead of having children praying, you're going to have a whole bunch of self-centered children, which, in and of itself, is a religious idea. Bah!

To the glory of God,

Randy

If you want to have true separation between church and state, both creation and evolution ought to be taught in schools.

That makes no sense. Because of separation of church and state, we should teach a philosophy about the beginnings of this planet that requires belief in the Christian God?

The same goes with prayer. I don't see why they banned prayer at schools. That's just pathetic! The reason why it's pathetic becuase, instead of having children praying, you're going to have a whole bunch of self-centered children, which, in and of itself, is a religious idea. Bah!

That's false. Prayer was not banned in school; mandatory prayer in school - requiring kids to pray to the Christian God every morning - was banned. There's a difference. Fundamentalists who whine about prayer being "banned" in public school have been lying since 1962.
Ringo

 

[SweetDaisyMae]

so what is secular humanism anyway?

secular
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis

humanism
an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine matters

 

[Ringo84]

Humanism, as far as I'm aware, is about putting human beings above everything else. How is a hypothesis that states that the earth is more important than humans, humanist?

Secular Humanism is another of those meaningless catchphrases right-wing preachers are always coming up with so they can plug their latest book tours. It no more exists than other bug-bears, like "The Permissive Society."

Secular Humanism is another of those meaningless catchphrases right-wing preachers are always coming up with so they can plug their latest book tours. It no more exists than other bug-bears, like "The Permissive Society."

Exactly.
Ringo