Secular does not = Sin.

[HuntingMan]

That the whole beauty of it we need to repent
we need conviction, we are going after our own loves and desires, and love our selves and the things of the world over God, and our brothers and sisters.

[9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Obviously I missed the point here.
Do we 'love the world' since we are ALL using computers and electricity here to post on this forum?
I personally dont see the need to repent of something where no wrong was done on my part.
Am I going after my own desires when I have spent more than 4000 hours over the last 55 months studying the MDR issue and creating a website to help the brethren, using SECULAR things in life to do so? (such as software created by a NONchristian company and paying for hosting with two NONchristian hosts)

Is the internet inherently evil?
if so, what on earth are you and I doing here?

Is it inherently good?
what about inappropriate content ?

or are these things neutral in and of themselves being defined as 'good' or 'evil' only when used for those purposes?

No, I do not believe I 'love the world' simply because I use things created by a secular world.
This is where i think the spirit of this verse fits right in...

Tit 1:15 EMTV All things indeed are pure to the pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience have been defiled.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

Much love in Christ.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

Just a note...that wasn't targeted at anybody, not at all! It was just to add that consideration to the discussion.

Huntingman, didn't you already discuss this with Zaac. You are right. It is not a TV set, it is not a computer, it is not the internet. Man-made items are not the issue here, actions are. You are right, it is the use of such items. No one is claiming CD's are evil because they are man-made, but rather the "artistry" recorded on them is evil when it is dishonoring to the Lord, rather than used for His glory. Man-made, secular, and of the world are all different and need to be distinguished as such.

Much love in Christ.

 

[HuntingMan]

Huntingman, didn't you already discuss this with Zaac.

I think I have made a few statements to that particular poster.
I am pulling out of this thread at this point because I dont feel that it is either destructive or an essential area of doctrine and therefore isnt really worth a lot of time or effort. The time would be better spent, on my own part, on other matters elsewhere. Ive stated my own views, let the readers decide how they feel about those views.

God bless

 

[Dannager]

I like this thread. It demonstrates the basic divide in Christianity that separates it into two entirely different religions, with two entirely different gods. It's always fascinating to read the opposing sides' arguments.

 

[BlueWidow]

What's your reasoning to listen to something that is not about God other than it being self-gratifying instead of Christ gratifying?

What makes you think Christ needs your constant "gratification" and nattering? How in the world do you even know what gratifies God? Do you to know the very mind of God, or are you just labeling everything fun as self gratification, without even giving pause to the idea that fun, recreation and yes, even self gratification, can be gratification enough.

Perhaps simply enjoying this life God gave us and being decent people is gratification enough?

After all, there is more to life than beating people over the head with the Bible. I've got a lot of Christian friends and family, living in Texas and all, but the ones that jibber jabber about Jesus 24/7 are not in my life, because they're more annoying than a screaming baby on a 15 hour flight to Europe with a moma who's too stupid to do anything about it.

And that is very annoying.

 

[BlueWidow]

You are a Saint of the Most High. Of course you're supposed to be Holy.

That's...a bit overkill, don't ya think. I mean, she seems like a good girl, certainly preferable to many Christians here, but a Saint? Kinda devalues the term.

Saint gives their lives, and their lifetimes, to helping people, walking the world as Christ did, reaching hearts, spreading the Gospel with more than words. Mother Teresa comes to mind.

Now while I'm sure you spend much time praying and reading the Bible and goes to Church and taking part in church events and this and that, how much time do you spend with the homeless, the needy, the dying, the sick? How much money do you give that allows you to call youself a saint? Beliefs make no one a decent person, much less a Saint.

 

[chris777]

no, that would be hypocritical.

we are to try and understand it though.

for example. teen girls have sex to feel loved often due to the fact that they have no father figure or a bad father figure. therefore understanding why they hurt themselves, you can help them overcome it.

if you're just like "well it's bad so stop"...it doesn't work.

That is the case in some respects, yes. However all sin is not the result of fathers being ascent, or not doing their Job.

I agree that their are things we need to have knowledge of, the problem is, not all of the knowledge is of any benefit.

I do agree that groups such as the Amish, who have shunned the world are in apostasy.
But the solution to their sin of not sharing the gospel, and looking out for their neighbors, is not to go a whoring our selves.

We as Christians need to be practicing much more discernment.

 

[chris777]

Obviously I missed the point here.
Do we 'love the world' since we are ALL using computers and electricity here to post on this forum?
I personally dont see the need to repent of something where no wrong was done on my part.

Who said you did? maybe you did miss the point.

Am I going after my own desires when I have spent more than 4000 hours over the last 55 months studying the MDR issue and creating a website to help the brethren, using SECULAR things in life to do so? (such as software created by a NONchristian company and paying for hosting with two NONchristian hosts)

Not sure I understand your point, are you teaching them secular ideas? and notions of marriage? or just using things that have been created to share the scriptures?

Is the internet inherently evil?
if so, what on earth are you and I doing here?

No, but the issue of how harmless it is overall could be debated, but thats not the point

Is it inherently good?
what about inappropriate content ?

please tell me you are not calling inappropriate content a good thing. I hope Its just a misreading.

or are these things neutral in and of themselves being defined as 'good' or 'evil' only when used for those purposes?

No, I do not believe I 'love the world' simply because I use things created by a secular world.
This is where i think the spirit of this verse fits right in...

Tit 1:15 EMTV All things indeed are pure to the pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience have been defiled.

that verse is rather telling
Tit 1:[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
I feel some of what I have said has been misread, As I have already replied to one such post.
However If you are calling inappropriate contentography "neutral" I strongly disagree as their are way to many issues with its creation, influence, and frankly yes secular origin, to even remotely call it neutral.

 

[dawnsday]

That is the case in some respects, yes. However all sin is not the result of fathers being ascent, or not doing their Job.

I agree that their are things we need to have knowledge of, the problem is, not all of the knowledge is of any benefit.

I do agree that groups such as the Amish, who have shunned the world are in apostasy.
But the solution to their sin of not sharing the gospel, and looking out for their neighbors, is not to go a whoring our selves.

We as Christians need to be practicing much more discernment.

Yeah sin can be completely based on a person being selfish.

But, how do you know that Casting Crowns (my favorite christian band and this is just hypothetical) isn't doing it for the money, the fame or the attention? Just because something is labled Christian doesn't mean that it done with godly intents...there are as many greedy self serving people in the Christian community as in the secular community. So, just because a song says God in it, doesn't necessarily mean it glorifies God...or one could say it's all how the listener takes it, in which case we would have to include secular art as that which can glorify him.

 

[chris777]

Yeah sin can be completely based on a person being selfish.

But, how do you know that Casting Crowns (my favorite christian band and this is just hypothetical) isn't doing it for the money, the fame or the attention? Just because something is labeled Christian doesn't mean that it done with godly intents...there are as many greedy self serving people in the Christian community as in the secular community. So, just because a song says God in it, doesn't necessarily mean it glorifies God...or one could say it's all how the listener takes it, in which case we would have to include secular art as that which can glorify him.

Ahh you are beginning to discern a bit.
this is why we test all things to see if they are of God, for many ravenous wolves have snuck in unaware,

one thing I have done a great deal of meditation on, is the methods, of Christ, He did not rail on rome, before the ressurection, but he did not adopt any of romes ways to spread the Gospel, God had provided everything he needed, and he did not have to adopt the ways of the heathen to share the Gospel.
think of it this way if their is nothing new under the sun, then look at the function ,and purposes of of something.
For example Chariot racing, and say nascar.
they are fundamentally the same thing, the only difference is the tool required, but the function is the same. Another parallel is the advertising, nascar has ads plastered everywhere ,and while the chariots may not be the best example, of it,not the only example, like say mid evil knights ,who were Covered in banners represenative of their kings and Lords.

 

[Dannager]

I don't like arguments from "there is nothing new under the sun". Fundamentalists tend to use it to support their pet standpoint of the day, but it's not very solid. You see, it cannot be falsified. I can name anything new, and all you have to do is find something in common with something that's existed before, and suddenly that argument has been justified. You look for the lowest common denominator and you win!

If someone came out with a fantastic new teleportation device unlike anything we've ever seen, you'd just tell me it's still made of metal, or it still just moves people and there's "nothing new under the sun".

 

[chris777]

I don't like arguments from "there is nothing new under the sun". Fundamentalists tend to use it to support their pet standpoint of the day, but it's not very solid. You see, it cannot be falsified. I can name anything new, and all you have to do is find something in common with something that's existed before, and suddenly that argument has been justified. You look for the lowest common denominator and you win!

If someone came out with a fantastic new teleportation device unlike anything we've ever seen, you'd just tell me it's still made of metal, or it still just moves people and there's "nothing new under the sun".

It is also based on your apparent perspective on the issue, you look at it as being defined by an invention.
But inventions perform a function.

So while teleportation, may seem like it is something totally new, it is still in essence transportation.
I saw some interesting things the other day on the history channel, speaking about ancient inventions, that were extremely advanced for what had been believed possible at the time. One of the devices was a "clock" of sorts, where the time of day could be determined through lining up the sight with a point of reference such as a star, or the sun. History channel referred to it as a "blackberry" And I agree that is a huge stretch, unless they are referring to the blackberry's clock.
But it was essentially a clock, that could be used any time of day, and it was portable so it is not unreasonable to call it a forerunner to a pocket or wrist watch.

 

[Dannager]

So while teleportation, may seem like it is something totally new, it is still in essence transportation.

That's what I'm talking about. All you have to do is find any common denominator and suddenly your belief is validated. There are no requirements for it, no rigors that need to be applied. It's unfalsifiable.

 

[chris777]

That's what I'm talking about. All you have to do is find any common denominator and suddenly your belief is validated. There are no requirements for it, no rigors that need to be applied. It's unfalsifiable.

the function is transportation, how is that unfalsifiable.

I stated to look at purpose, and or function, not whether or not its blue, fluffy, or smells like mint.

purpose, and function.
Reduce it to its basic function, not pull up any remote comparison like history channels hand held device comparison.

 

[Dannager]

the function is transportation, how is that unfalsifiable.

No, the "nothing new under the sun" claim is unfalsifiable.

 

[dawnsday]

Ahh you are beginning to discern a bit.
this is why we test all things to see if they are of God, for many ravenous wolves have snuck in unaware,

one thing I have done a great deal of meditation on, is the methods, of Christ, He did not rail on rome, before the ressurection, but he did not adopt any of romes ways to spread the Gospel, God had provided everything he needed, and he did not have to adopt the ways of the heathen to share the Gospel.
think of it this way if their is nothing new under the sun, then look at the function ,and purposes of of something.
For example Chariot racing, and say nascar.
they are fundamentally the same thing, the only difference is the tool required, but the function is the same. Another parallel is the advertising, nascar has ads plastered everywhere ,and while the chariots may not be the best example, of it,not the only example, like say mid evil knights ,who were Covered in banners represenative of their kings and Lords.

Okay, so then you know that secular doesn't equal sin?

 

[IamRedeemed]

While I believe some folks take it to the extreme, (in both directions) there is a lot to be said for guarding our hearts and minds. The Bible tells us to guard our hearts and minds, because although not everything secular is sinful, on the same token, there is much that is secular that is clearly not beneficial to a reborn and growing spirit that is now alive to the things of God, and can surely have the potential to lead to sin or lead to situations that present more temptation and opportunities for sin to enter.

Because our flesh is an enemy of our spirits and is warring for domination with influence and in cahoots (if you will) with the father of sin and the enemy of our souls it is important to starve the flesh of many things, and feed our spirits in order to grow up spiritually and renew our minds to be in alignment with God's ways and will in our lives, and we do that by washing our thoughts, our minds, with His Word. This is the heavenly manna, the bread of life. Jesus IS the Word, He is the bread of life, the Word is the bread of life. The Bible, which is God breathed is our spiritual food, and trains us to know His voice when we hear it, in prayer and fellowship time with the Lord.

As well as recognize what is NOT the voice of the Lord in other situations, circumstances, or through the mouth of a false teacher, false prophet etc. In order to guard our hearts and minds, we have to close doors to certain things entering. And we do that by refusing to listen to certain music containing certain lyrics, as well as we control what we allow to enter our homes by way of television and movies. Our minds are like sponges. We retain everything. Some of it is useful and beneficial, some of it can be destructive and eventually contribute to our way of thinking and can also lead us AWAY from God subtly and over time, by searing our consciences, and we can come to a point where we are so desensitized and don't even realize what we are letting in. The first and greatest commandment Jesus said is to "Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30).

So, again wisdom is necessary in all situations, and a better question than, "is this or that sin?" is "Is this going to benefit me?" "Is this good for me", "Is this contradictory to my goal of growing closer in my walk with the Lord?"

Guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life. Proverbs 4:23

Hope that helps to get a better prospective.
God bless.

Why do so many christians think anything that is secular is a sin. Just because it isn't religious, doesn't mean it doesn't please God.

For example...music...just because it isn't ABOUT God doesn't mean it isn't pleasing to Him or a good song.

TV: not all TV has to talk about God to have a story that God likes and is good.

Movies: same

Books: again

Why is it that so many christians think this?

 

[chris777]

Okay, so then you know that secular doesn't equal sin?

I never said it did.

I did say it is not something we are told to be friends with it either

 

[dawnsday]

I never said it did.

I did say it is not something we are told to be friends with it either

hmmmm....interesting....