Second Law of Thermodynamics - a creationist puzzle.

[rjw]

Hi All,


According to creationists, life having evolved and life continuing to evolve are impossible because evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics (2LoT).

Allowing for this to be true, can any creationist tell me how life manages to survive nevertheless, in this world where it cannot evolve without violating 2LoT?


Regards, Roland

 

[Blayz]

God's lovemercyjusticehate

and I thought it was SLOT, not 2LOT

 

[StormyNormal]

define evolve

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi All,


According to creationists, life having evolved and life continuing to evolve are impossible because evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics (2LoT).

Allowing for this to be true, can any creationist tell me how life manages to survive nevertheless, in this world where it cannot evolve without violating 2LoT?


Regards, Roland

I could be wrong on this (what else is old?), but abiogenesis cannot occur in a universe that is winding down into a state of maximum entropy, due to the shear amount of energy that would be required to "kick start" life in the first place. Not to mention continually supplying that molecule with the exact amount of energy (no less, no more) and nurturing it and giving it viability. The Enthropic Principle contains a very fragile set of requirements that would, in my opinion, render abiogenesis impossible.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I could be wrong on this (what else is old?), but abiogenesis cannot occur in a universe that is winding down into a state of maximum entropy, due to the shear amount of energy that would be required to "kick start" life in the first place.

Incredibly wrong, AV -- how much energy does it take to "kick start" life, anyway?

Not to mention continually supplying that molecule with the exact amount of energy (no less, no more) and nurturing it and giving it viability.

Which would explain why life would've originated in the seas -- water makes a great filter, variable depending on depth.

The Enthropic Principle contains a very fragile set of requirements that would, in my opinion, render abiogenesis impossible.

Your opinion is based on faulty premises. But thank you for playing.

 

[Patashu]

define evolve

Evolve as in the theory of evolution.

 

[DrunkenWrestler]

Does a man synthesizing from dirt violate 2LoT?

 

[StormyNormal]

Does a man synthesizing from dirt violate 2LoT?

Man didn't synthesize himself and since be made all of the laws he could and did break them not only durng the creation but also after in the following miracles. That is one the faith based objects involved in creation similar to the bigbang which requires faith as well. Wait... Doesn't that make it a religion. Why do I have to pay to have that religion taught?

 

[atomweaver]

I could be wrong on this (what else is old?), but abiogenesis cannot occur in a universe that is winding down into a state of maximum entropy, due to the shear amount of energy that would be required to "kick start" life in the first place.

Out of curiosity, I Googled 'solar power density'... found this;

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1998/ManicaPiputbundit.shtml

For those who are actually curious about how much energy do we really have to work with to overcome entropy... the Sun delivers to the Earth roughly 5 million horsepower of energy per square mile of surface area. (average ~1.4 kW/m^2) Wow. That's plenty of energy top kick start all sorts of things (life, weather, etc). Thanks for your nay-saying AVVEt, it led to learning...

 

[Patashu]

Man didn't synthesize himself and since be made all of the laws he could and did break them not only durng the creation but also after in the following miracles. That is one the faith based objects involved in creation similar to the bigbang which requires faith as well. Wait... Doesn't that make it a religion. Why do I have to pay to have that religion taught?

The big bang theory is an extrapolation and backed up by the evidence. This requires faith why?

 

[DrunkenWrestler]

Man didn't synthesize himself and since be made all of the laws he could and did break them not only durng the creation but also after in the following miracles.

If you're gonna add magical fairies to the equation, why not say god was behind evolution? Why not say the Earth is really flat and god manipulates light around camera lenses to make photographs of the Earth seem round? In fact, if you add magical fairies to the equation, you can make up any ludacris idea! Everything's possible in Barbie world.

And if you're gonna say god is allowed to break laws, what's to stop him from breaking his own moral code and writing an entire book of falsehoods? He could break his own rule and send good people to Hell and bad people to Heaven, so why bother worshipping? He could drown an entire planet and still be benevolent. Oh wait, he already does that.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's plenty of energy top kick start all sorts of things (life, weather, etc).

Why then do we not see life spontaneously occurring on the earth?

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Why then do we not see life spontaneously occurring on the earth?

Oxygen would disrupt the reactions before they even got started.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why then do we not see life spontaneously occurring on the earth?

Because you have your nose buried in a KJV Bibe?

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Oxygen would disrupt the reactions before they even got started.

Before any confusion arises, oxygen was added to the atmosphere by photosynthetic organisms long after life initially formed. That led to what was possibly one of the first major extinction events.

 

[AV1611VET]

Oxygen would disrupt the reactions before they even got started.

Then do it in a laboratory. Put the ingredients for life in a Bell Jar (I think it's called), pump out the air, and subject said ingredients to the sun.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Then do it in a laboratory. Put the ingredients for life in a Bell Jar (I think it's called), pump out the air, and subject said ingredients to the sun.

Its not about getting rid of the air, it's getting the right air.

 

[gaara4158]

Then do it in a laboratory. Put the ingredients for life in a Bell Jar (I think it's called), pump out the air, and subject said ingredients to the sun.

That would then leave the realm of spontaneity and enter the realm of scientific experimentation.

And anyway, we don't see it probably because it's not there, but if it were, there'd be no way for us to monitor every inch of the world for spontaneously-forming life.

 

[MoonLancer]

Then do it in a laboratory. Put the ingredients for life in a Bell Jar (I think it's called), pump out the air, and subject said ingredients to the sun.

It wont work due to time restraints. life took billions of years. Thus scientists don't have the life spans to create life in a lab.

we don't see new life because of these time restraints and because this world has hostile organisms that would snuff out this new life before we would likely have a chance to discover it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Its not about getting rid of the air, it's getting the right air.

That would then leave the realm of spontaneity and enter the realm of scientific experimentation.

And anyway, we don't see it probably because it's not there, but if it were, there'd be no way for us to monitor every inch of the world for spontaneously-forming life.

In that case, I vote GOD DID IT, without the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in operation.