Seat of Moses ?

[visionary]

See also Leviticus Ch. 4 & 5 for the same issues. See Ezekiel 18 for sins we know we have committed.

especially the part...
21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

[Heber Book List]

Vs 21 is the caveat... 'If'... Then vs 22 kicks in.

 

[visionary]

Vs 21 is the caveat... 'If'... Then vs 22 kicks in.

That includes "knowningly sinning sins"... repentance is the powerful neutralizer

 

[Heber Book List]

Ezekiel is a call to repentance for known sins. Leviticus and Numbers relate to unknown sins, which are, or should be, covered by repentance, obviously, as soon as we realise them.

 

[Meowzltov]

Really!!!! Then what good is repentance if it only for the unintentional sins? I understand that that there is only one sin that can not be forgiven... that of blasphemy. Since the sin offering is a show of repentance, each occasion is marked with a sin sacrifice.

Repentance is how you handle intentional sin.

Let's take David's sin. Nathan confronts him and David is filled with remorse and confesses to Nathan, "I haved sinned against the Lord!" Did Nathan say, "Quick, go make a sin offering." NO! Rather, David's repentance was enough. Nathan absolves him, "The LORD has taken away your sin."

Would any of the Jews in the forum like to comment on how the Torah directs how to handle unintentional verses intentional sin?
@ChavaK @Aryeh Jay @Danny Ski Who am I missing?

 

[ralliann]

Repentance is how you handle intentional sin.

Let's take David's sin. Nathan confronts him and David is filled with remorse and confesses to Nathan, "I haved sinned against the Lord!" Did Nathan say, "Quick, go make a sin offering." NO! Rather, David's repentance was enough. Nathan absolves him, "The LORD has taken away your sin."

Would any of the Jews in the forum like to comment on how the Torah directs how to handle unintentional verses intentional sin?
@ChavaK @Aryeh Jay @Danny Ski Who am I missing?

But the child died.....Was this not a part of the story?

 

[ralliann]

Notice the word 'ignorant' in verse 2? He is referring to sins committed in ignorance. If you continue reading the NT you will find this:

Hebrew 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

But the scripture does not appear to be speaking on a personal level. Rather it speaks as if a collective sense, as it mentions hid from the congeregation. Judaism does teach concerning a collective nature of sin.

Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that tomorrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.
Sometimes I wonder if this is not what Paul speaks concerning here.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Heber Book List]

But the scripture does not appear to be speaking on a personal level. Rather it speaks as if a collective sense, as it mentions hid from the congeregation. Judaism does teach concerning a collective nature of sin.

Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that tomorrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.
Sometimes I wonder if this is not what Paul speaks concerning here.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ezekiel 18 teaches that sin is personal - that each person is responsible for their own sins.

 

[ralliann]

Ezekiel 18 teaches that sin is personal - that each person is responsible for their own sins.

What then of Joshua and Achan? What of David and the child dieing?
Did not even the holy prophets suffer due to sins of others? Yet they were not held to account personally by God for those sins. Daniel in interceding prayer spoke as part of a collective, saying we have sinned. We have done etc.

 

[Heber Book List]

What then of Joshua and Achan? What of David and the child dieing?

I think you might find that Ezekiel is later in the Tanach. But do try reading it - the text is clear and unambiguous, with lots of examples.

BTW. David committed three, not two, sins. First with the woman and then by arranging the death of her husband. The punishment was against him alone for his contempt of G_d. Re. Achan - it was a personal sin, but it affected the whole nation. It was another example of the contempt of G_d.

 

[ralliann]

I think you might find that Ezekiel is later in the Tanach. But do try reading it - the text is clear and unambiguous, with lots of examples.

This does not answer my question. Which was sincerely asked, as my views on Ezekiel leans towards speaking of new covenant prinicipals.

David committed three, not two, sins. First with the woman and then by arranging the death of her husband. The punishment was against him alone for his contempt of G_d.

Arranging the death of her husband? Again David, it seems to me indeed desired he be killed in battle. But God could have spared him. But this too does not answer my question concerning the collective nature of sin spoken of elsewhere in scripture.

 

[Heber Book List]

This does not answer my question. Which was sincerely asked, as my views on Ezekiel leans towards speaking of new covenant prinicipals.

Arranging the death of her husband? Again David, it seems to me indeed desired he be killed in battle. But God could have spared him. But this too does not answer my question concerning the collective nature of sin spoken of elsewhere in scripture.

Scripture clearly says that he was forgiven for that sin, along with his adultery. But... it also clearly says that his son died because of David's contempt of G_d, as in Nathan's words. A life for a life (or you could say: a life for a wife!). Pharoah's son also died because of his father's contempt for G_d, along with all the first born in Egypt - a lesson that should have been learned by G_d's chosen people, whose ancestors had been guilty of the same sin in the desert, and a whole generation lost out on seeing the promised land.

Achan's sin showed that contempt of G_d causes not only the one person to die, but his whole family and that sin can injure the nation as well. Ezekiel points the way forward - the way of personal sin and responsibility.

I guess G_d could stop all sin, but that would not be free will, would it? G_d knew David's heart, that if the man had survived that battle, he would have been murdered another way.

If you show the other bits of scripture to which you refer they, too, can be addressed.

 

[ralliann]

Scripture clearly says that he was forgiven for that sin, along with his adultery. But... it also clearly says that his son died because of David's contempt of G_d, as in Nathan's words. A life for a life (or you could say: a life for a wife!). Pharoah's son also died because of his father's contempt for G_d, along with all the first born in Egypt - a lesson that should have been learned by G_d's chosen people, whose ancestors had been guilty of the same sin in the desert, and a whole generation lost out on seeing the promised land.

Achan's sin showed that contempt of G_d causes not only the one person to die, but his whole family and that sin can injure the nation as well. Ezekiel points the way forward - the way of personal sin and responsibility.

I guess G_d could stop all sin, but that would not be free will, would it? G_d knew David's heart, that if the man had survived that battle, he would have been murdered another way.

If you show the other bits of scripture to which you refer they, too, can be addressed.

Well it seems to me I do not need to bring up more scripture. You appear to be acknowledging the collective nature of sin by law.

 

[Heber Book List]

Well it seems to me I do not need to bring up more scripture. You appear to be acknowledging the collective nature of sin by law.

Ezekiel, is still about personal sin, as in the case of Pharoah, David and Achan et al. The RESULT of personal sin can be seen, and felt, by others, even whole generations (as in the Exodus for example).

Ezekiel 18 starts by G_d saying that he does not punish people for the sins of their ancestors, they are now each responsible for their own sins.

I await your scripture quotes with great expectation...

 

[ralliann]

Ezekiel, is still about personal sin, as in the case of Pharoah, David and Achan et al. The RESULT of personal sin can be seen, and felt, by others, even whole generations (as in the Exodus for example).

Ezekiel starts by G_d saying that he does not punish people for the sins of their ancestors, they are now each responsible for their own sins.

Yet God requires the blood of the man who turns from his righteousness if he does not warn him....Ez 3:20. As though he had murdered him.

 

[Heber Book List]

Yet God requires the blood of the man who turns from his righteousness if he does not warn him....Ez 3:20. As though he had murdered him.

Ez. 18 is 15 chapters later!

G_d answers the complaints of the people by telling them that each must now be responsible for their own sins.

 

[ralliann]

Ezekiel, is still about personal sin, as in the case of Pharoah, David and Achan et al. The RESULT of personal sin can be seen, and felt, by others, even whole generations (as in the Exodus for example).

Ezekiel starts by G_d saying that he does not punish people for the sins of their ancestors, they are now each responsible for their own sins.

I await your scripture quotes with great expectation...

I think I already did that. But here is Paul. I think he may just be speaking of not being subject to his membership in a carnal collective.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Heber Book List]

I think I already did that. But here is Paul. I think he may just be speaking of not being subject to his membership in a carnal collective.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Are you saying that the Law is no longer, because Paul doesn't.

 

[ralliann]

Ez. 18 is 15 chapters later!

G_d answers the complaints of the people by telling them that each must now be responsible for their own sins.

I think the law much ealier speaks of the children also not being punished for the sins of the fathers. So Ezekiel says nothing any different in that respect. But the law does say, the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation.
Which chapter and verse of Ezekiel are you speaking of?

 

[ralliann]

Are you saying that the Law is no longer, because Paul doesn't.

Just because a person is not subject to the law of Moses does not mean it is no longer. Which I am sure you already know. So what do you mean by,,, it is no longer?