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Seals
- Thread starter gracechick
- Start date
I agree that the chariots with horses in Zechariah are likely the horses seen in Revelation. If this is true, and they are equivalents...
Zec 6:3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses...
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them...
8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
...we have to conclude that the First Seal horseman, the White Horse, is not actually righteous. As Zec 6:8 explains... "these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country."
Who's talking? God. And what is God's spirit? The Holy Spirit. If the white horses have quieted God's Holy Spirit, then they can't be righteous. And if these white horses are equivalent to the white horseman, then that Revelation white horseman can't be righteous, which eliminates the white horseman from being Jesus.
Also, the white horses follow the black horses into the north country. I my mind, that eliminates the White Horseman from being the "anti-Christ"... in the sense of being the "son of perdition" dude who sits in the temple and runs the Tribulation. Of course, in the spiritual sense of "anti-Christ", ALL the horsemen are "anti-Christ."
I don't subscribe to any coventional explanations of the first three horsemen. I know that the White Horseman is not Jesus and it ain't the "anti-Christ". I know the Red Horseman is not "war" in general, because war has been around since Cain killed Able. I know the Black Horseman is not famine because famine comes from the pale horseman. However, I DO know the Pale Horseman IS death, because the Bible calls him by name--Death; and that he has Hell following after him.
Of course, the translation to "pale" comes from the Greek chloros, which is where we derive chlorine, chlorophyl, etc... and these all have a common characteristic color--green to pale-green/yellow. Most newer translations use the word pale-green for this 4th horseman.
Then in Zechariah, these same horses are called grisled and bay. And though you can find pale and mottled bay, and grisled is a term applied to modern horses which are light brown/red... there's no green involved. I ain't sure what that means. But I have very little reservation that the bay/grisled are equal to the pale... for the sole reason the other three relate to the Rev 1st-3rd.
I'll tell you what I believe these to be:
The White Horseman is false Christianity. It looks just like the real thing, because it displays the name of Jesus over the doorways. It gives the appearance of Christlikeness through trappings; but it is false. There is no Holy Spirit in this "christianity". And I know that since it is the 1st seal, that seal was opened back about 300AD.
The 2nd seal contains the Red Horseman. He is given power to take peace from the earth and a sword and they kill each other. This is Communism. Communism takes peace from anywhere is touches and it kills its own. More than 100 million "comrades" were killed during the Russian, Chinese, and other revolutions in just the 1,900's This is more than WWI and WWII combined. And that seal appears to have "officially" opened about 1850.
The 3rd seal contains the Black Horseman, who carries a pair of balances. This is Capitalism. The wheat and barley are commodities; and the pennys, which used to be a days wages are now of much less worth because Capitalism produces material abundance. Not that it necessarily applies, but most of the Stock Market Indexes used to be noted in 1/8's of a point. Now, they are noted as $0.01... or a penny. Modern Capiatlism came about roughly at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. However, it really didn't get rolling until the early 1,900's, when the monetary systems of the world became debt-based... when the entire world stopped using gold and silver and went to fiat-currencies based solely on debt.
Communism is actually much older an economic system than Capitalism. We just didn't call serfdom, or other forms of slavery, communism. That's the way we differentiate Marxism (democratic socialism) from the older forms of slavery. We call the older stuff, slavery and the newer stuff, Marxism.
And since the White Horses follow the Black Horses into the north country, it might be safe to reason that the north country would be the northern hemisphere. Where are the Capitalist economies? And if we reason that the White Horses follow (false Christianity), well... I think it's safe to say that between Capitalism and False Christanity, there ain't many hearing the Spirit of God; ya think?
Ain't gotta worry about the Red ones quieting God's spirit. The Commies don't even profess to believe in God or His Spirit.
The pale/green/bay/grisled are pretty self evident. It's death and hell. And they go to and fro through the earth. And that seal's been open for how long???
So much for any specific timing of the Seals being relative to their opening; eh? Of the Four Horses are the four spirits standing before the Lord of all the earth, ya gotta wonder if those four spirits shown to Zechariah were standing before God in Heaven... or before the devil, who is the God of this earth.... for this age, anyway.
Zec 6:3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses...
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them...
8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
...we have to conclude that the First Seal horseman, the White Horse, is not actually righteous. As Zec 6:8 explains... "these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country."
Who's talking? God. And what is God's spirit? The Holy Spirit. If the white horses have quieted God's Holy Spirit, then they can't be righteous. And if these white horses are equivalent to the white horseman, then that Revelation white horseman can't be righteous, which eliminates the white horseman from being Jesus.
Also, the white horses follow the black horses into the north country. I my mind, that eliminates the White Horseman from being the "anti-Christ"... in the sense of being the "son of perdition" dude who sits in the temple and runs the Tribulation. Of course, in the spiritual sense of "anti-Christ", ALL the horsemen are "anti-Christ."
I don't subscribe to any coventional explanations of the first three horsemen. I know that the White Horseman is not Jesus and it ain't the "anti-Christ". I know the Red Horseman is not "war" in general, because war has been around since Cain killed Able. I know the Black Horseman is not famine because famine comes from the pale horseman. However, I DO know the Pale Horseman IS death, because the Bible calls him by name--Death; and that he has Hell following after him.
Of course, the translation to "pale" comes from the Greek chloros, which is where we derive chlorine, chlorophyl, etc... and these all have a common characteristic color--green to pale-green/yellow. Most newer translations use the word pale-green for this 4th horseman.
Then in Zechariah, these same horses are called grisled and bay. And though you can find pale and mottled bay, and grisled is a term applied to modern horses which are light brown/red... there's no green involved. I ain't sure what that means. But I have very little reservation that the bay/grisled are equal to the pale... for the sole reason the other three relate to the Rev 1st-3rd.
I'll tell you what I believe these to be:
The White Horseman is false Christianity. It looks just like the real thing, because it displays the name of Jesus over the doorways. It gives the appearance of Christlikeness through trappings; but it is false. There is no Holy Spirit in this "christianity". And I know that since it is the 1st seal, that seal was opened back about 300AD.
The 2nd seal contains the Red Horseman. He is given power to take peace from the earth and a sword and they kill each other. This is Communism. Communism takes peace from anywhere is touches and it kills its own. More than 100 million "comrades" were killed during the Russian, Chinese, and other revolutions in just the 1,900's This is more than WWI and WWII combined. And that seal appears to have "officially" opened about 1850.
The 3rd seal contains the Black Horseman, who carries a pair of balances. This is Capitalism. The wheat and barley are commodities; and the pennys, which used to be a days wages are now of much less worth because Capitalism produces material abundance. Not that it necessarily applies, but most of the Stock Market Indexes used to be noted in 1/8's of a point. Now, they are noted as $0.01... or a penny. Modern Capiatlism came about roughly at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. However, it really didn't get rolling until the early 1,900's, when the monetary systems of the world became debt-based... when the entire world stopped using gold and silver and went to fiat-currencies based solely on debt.
Communism is actually much older an economic system than Capitalism. We just didn't call serfdom, or other forms of slavery, communism. That's the way we differentiate Marxism (democratic socialism) from the older forms of slavery. We call the older stuff, slavery and the newer stuff, Marxism.
And since the White Horses follow the Black Horses into the north country, it might be safe to reason that the north country would be the northern hemisphere. Where are the Capitalist economies? And if we reason that the White Horses follow (false Christianity), well... I think it's safe to say that between Capitalism and False Christanity, there ain't many hearing the Spirit of God; ya think?
Ain't gotta worry about the Red ones quieting God's spirit. The Commies don't even profess to believe in God or His Spirit.
The pale/green/bay/grisled are pretty self evident. It's death and hell. And they go to and fro through the earth. And that seal's been open for how long???
So much for any specific timing of the Seals being relative to their opening; eh? Of the Four Horses are the four spirits standing before the Lord of all the earth, ya gotta wonder if those four spirits shown to Zechariah were standing before God in Heaven... or before the devil, who is the God of this earth.... for this age, anyway.
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B1inHim
LOVE one another
All of the first 4 of the 7 seals are evidenced as being opened daily moment by moment right now...
Love,
your servant brother Jerry...
MY BAD sorry. cannot expect y'all to see this even well OK, I'll show it again, but you gotta watch this time alright?
here goes
B goes after A... watch I'll show you
OK…
The first 4 seals are an active part of our daily lives today every day moment by moment every day right now…
Seal 1
Rev. 6:2 (KJV)
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Evidenced on a daily basis since at least 70 AD
Seal 2
Rev. 6:3-4 (KJV)
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. [4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Evidenced sporadically throughout all history but has been a complete constant globally since 9/11
Seal 3
Rev 6: 5When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Come!” And I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6And a voice from among the four living beings said, “A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley for a day’s pay. And don’t waste the olive oil and wine.”
Evidenced by third world cost per loaf of bread
Seal 4
Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Evidenced by http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe (4.2-1.8=40+%) is now more than 1/4th of the population.
That means that the fifth seal could quite possibly and most probably is opened up by now BUT we do not know if it is because we cannot see the evidences of it.
*********That in itself keeps us from being able to figure out some of the formulas that we DEBATE about here, because we cannot see the evidence of the information that the 5th seal holds************
That leaves us with one final seal for us, the gentiles to withstand… This generation will not pass till ALL these things come to pass…
Three things are left for us, the gentiles, till the times of the gentiles are fulfilled…
One has happened already, Sspiritually we have seen whom the AC is. We will not see him set foot on the place of sacrifice that is for the children of Israel to see.
A great, global earthquake and the sun and moon to loose their natural light are 2 and 3.
All that is left is Seal 6
12I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from trees shaken by mighty winds. 14And the sky was rolled up like a scroll and taken away. And all of the mountains and all of the islands disappeared. 15Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy people, the people with great power, and every slave and every free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who will be able to survive?”
Very, very soon to be evidenced.
So, now...what are we left with?
I would LOVE to say that it is going to be fine and dandy and everything is going to get better but that would be a lie.
Zeke is partially correct about the seals being information. They contain information about conditional events that are triggered by cause and effects...
I'll show you.
GOD set in motion cause and effect in the beginning with "Light be" and each time Lord Jesus spoke during the first week a new set of cause and effect was set into motion. Then after thousands of years had gone by, when His chosen people were in the land of Egypt long enough for a certain element to rise to the surface of the soil, Moses was sent to tell the Pharaoh "let my people go and GOD being all knowing, knew that the soil would blood red the water and cause and effect each and every single plague that set on the people of Egypt...Thus that set His children of Israel free.
Flash forward... Apostle John is in heaven, The seals are opened one by one sequentially... Each of them are opened in times that are ripe with the age of the planet and its population or its peripheral functions. The same as it was back in Moses time only in a different dispensation and a different aspect of inertia. In other words, the motions are not the same ones as they were like back then but the will of GOD is still achieved and activated just the same. Israel is set free the first time... all of God's Children will be set free this time, once and for all times. all by cause and effect that was set in motion by GOD back hundreds of millions of millions of ad infinitum years ago in the beginning when GOD is.
Love
your servant brother Jerry
Love,
your servant brother Jerry...
MY BAD sorry. cannot expect y'all to see this even well OK, I'll show it again, but you gotta watch this time alright?
here goes
B goes after A... watch I'll show you
OK…
The first 4 seals are an active part of our daily lives today every day moment by moment every day right now…
Seal 1
Rev. 6:2 (KJV)
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Evidenced on a daily basis since at least 70 AD
Seal 2
Rev. 6:3-4 (KJV)
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. [4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Evidenced sporadically throughout all history but has been a complete constant globally since 9/11
Seal 3
Rev 6: 5When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Come!” And I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6And a voice from among the four living beings said, “A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley for a day’s pay. And don’t waste the olive oil and wine.”
Evidenced by third world cost per loaf of bread
Seal 4
Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Evidenced by http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe (4.2-1.8=40+%) is now more than 1/4th of the population.
That means that the fifth seal could quite possibly and most probably is opened up by now BUT we do not know if it is because we cannot see the evidences of it.
*********That in itself keeps us from being able to figure out some of the formulas that we DEBATE about here, because we cannot see the evidence of the information that the 5th seal holds************
That leaves us with one final seal for us, the gentiles to withstand… This generation will not pass till ALL these things come to pass…
Three things are left for us, the gentiles, till the times of the gentiles are fulfilled…
One has happened already, Sspiritually we have seen whom the AC is. We will not see him set foot on the place of sacrifice that is for the children of Israel to see.
A great, global earthquake and the sun and moon to loose their natural light are 2 and 3.
All that is left is Seal 6
12I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from trees shaken by mighty winds. 14And the sky was rolled up like a scroll and taken away. And all of the mountains and all of the islands disappeared. 15Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy people, the people with great power, and every slave and every free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who will be able to survive?”
Very, very soon to be evidenced.
So, now...what are we left with?
I would LOVE to say that it is going to be fine and dandy and everything is going to get better but that would be a lie.
Zeke is partially correct about the seals being information. They contain information about conditional events that are triggered by cause and effects...
I'll show you.
GOD set in motion cause and effect in the beginning with "Light be" and each time Lord Jesus spoke during the first week a new set of cause and effect was set into motion. Then after thousands of years had gone by, when His chosen people were in the land of Egypt long enough for a certain element to rise to the surface of the soil, Moses was sent to tell the Pharaoh "let my people go and GOD being all knowing, knew that the soil would blood red the water and cause and effect each and every single plague that set on the people of Egypt...Thus that set His children of Israel free.
Flash forward... Apostle John is in heaven, The seals are opened one by one sequentially... Each of them are opened in times that are ripe with the age of the planet and its population or its peripheral functions. The same as it was back in Moses time only in a different dispensation and a different aspect of inertia. In other words, the motions are not the same ones as they were like back then but the will of GOD is still achieved and activated just the same. Israel is set free the first time... all of God's Children will be set free this time, once and for all times. all by cause and effect that was set in motion by GOD back hundreds of millions of millions of ad infinitum years ago in the beginning when GOD is.
Love
your servant brother Jerry
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NJBeliever
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vinsight4u,
In order to understand the Mystery Babylon of Revelation (though it is describd in intricate detail in Re 17 and 18), we gotta know what the original Babylon was. When they built that tower, it was for the purpose of creating a way to avoid another flood. Even though God said He would never flood the earth again, they didn't believe Him. They decided they could provide their own "salvation", if it were ever needed because of a flood.
Babylon was originally defined by their worshiping idols. Actually, they weren't worshipping ANY gods when they started out. And, of course, they weren't worshiping the One True God, because they didn't believe Him. That's the defining characteristic.
I don't buy that Mystery Babylon is the physical "Babylon" of the land of Shinar. The oiginal is just a metaphor, now. It was a real place (and still is, more or less), but it is not the center of false Christianity. And since True Christianity is God's "religion", if you will... Babylon ain't the center of false Christianity--Mystery Babylon is. And where is the center of this false Christianity?
As Mystery Babylon is the Mother of Harlots, then there have to be daughter harlots. Daughter harlots means they have gone whoring after false gods, just like their mother has. I wonder who those daughters are?
Everyone tries to view things from a Jewish perspective. Though physical Israel is the most important temporal point of focus for the endtime, physical Israel is not a spiritual point of focus:
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
--even Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt".
So, where is the spiritual focus? It's in True Christianity (by the way, there are Israelites who are followers of Christ.) Does physical Babylon really represent all false-Christians? What physical and spiritual place represents all false-Christians, and has daughters who also are havens for false-Christians? Know of any daughters who came out from Mystery Babylon? Did Mystery Babylon ever believe in the One True God?
False Christianity is Mystery Babylon. And she has daughters. And what is false Christianity? The "cornerstone" of Christianity, Jesus, (the promise of Judaism, the faith of Abraham) is:
De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
How many Gods are there in True Christianity? ONE.
How many are there in False Christianity? THREE (in one.)
Mystery Babylon ain't no mystery. And she ain't found built up in the land of Shinar. She is called Babylon because she leads people away from belief in the One True God. You can read all you need to know about Mystery Babylon and her daughters in Re 17 and 18 (there is only one Babylon in these two chapters--the same one.) Once we accept how God views His name being taken in vain, we can understand that to tack the name of Jesus over "temples" and then to declare that He is three persons; well...
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
We can read what God has to say about Mystery Babylon:
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
In order to understand the Mystery Babylon of Revelation (though it is describd in intricate detail in Re 17 and 18), we gotta know what the original Babylon was. When they built that tower, it was for the purpose of creating a way to avoid another flood. Even though God said He would never flood the earth again, they didn't believe Him. They decided they could provide their own "salvation", if it were ever needed because of a flood.
Babylon was originally defined by their worshiping idols. Actually, they weren't worshipping ANY gods when they started out. And, of course, they weren't worshiping the One True God, because they didn't believe Him. That's the defining characteristic.
I don't buy that Mystery Babylon is the physical "Babylon" of the land of Shinar. The oiginal is just a metaphor, now. It was a real place (and still is, more or less), but it is not the center of false Christianity. And since True Christianity is God's "religion", if you will... Babylon ain't the center of false Christianity--Mystery Babylon is. And where is the center of this false Christianity?
As Mystery Babylon is the Mother of Harlots, then there have to be daughter harlots. Daughter harlots means they have gone whoring after false gods, just like their mother has. I wonder who those daughters are?
Everyone tries to view things from a Jewish perspective. Though physical Israel is the most important temporal point of focus for the endtime, physical Israel is not a spiritual point of focus:
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
--even Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt".
So, where is the spiritual focus? It's in True Christianity (by the way, there are Israelites who are followers of Christ.) Does physical Babylon really represent all false-Christians? What physical and spiritual place represents all false-Christians, and has daughters who also are havens for false-Christians? Know of any daughters who came out from Mystery Babylon? Did Mystery Babylon ever believe in the One True God?
False Christianity is Mystery Babylon. And she has daughters. And what is false Christianity? The "cornerstone" of Christianity, Jesus, (the promise of Judaism, the faith of Abraham) is:
De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
How many Gods are there in True Christianity? ONE.
How many are there in False Christianity? THREE (in one.)
Mystery Babylon ain't no mystery. And she ain't found built up in the land of Shinar. She is called Babylon because she leads people away from belief in the One True God. You can read all you need to know about Mystery Babylon and her daughters in Re 17 and 18 (there is only one Babylon in these two chapters--the same one.) Once we accept how God views His name being taken in vain, we can understand that to tack the name of Jesus over "temples" and then to declare that He is three persons; well...
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
We can read what God has to say about Mystery Babylon:
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
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B1inHim,
"That in itself keeps us from being able to figure out some of the formulas that we DEBATE about here, because we cannot see the evidence of the information that the 5th seal holds..."
Why do we need to know more than what is told us regarding that 5th seal? There ain't no specific timing in that seal. The purpose of the 5th seal is to let us know that "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" is not just a metaphor of Paul's.
The timing of the return of Jesus is primarily set by the Trumpets and the Vials. They are specific events "in time". The Seals are merely conditions established primarily by the four spirits released in the earth. The only seals, which have any timing attached to them, are the 6th and 7th Seals.
Since Jesus returns at the time of the 6th Seal, all the Trumpets must have already occured when He shows up, at the soundinig of the (last trump) 7th Trumpet... and consequently, those trumpets CAN'T follow ALL the seals being opened, first... as the 6th Seal is His return. The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial... happen at the same time. That means the 7th Seal has to open AFTER Jesus has returned--not BEFORE He returns.
"...set in motion by GOD back hundreds of millions of millions of ad infinitum years ago in the beginning when GOD is."
You do know that "In the beginning" is a phrase which denotes when time started; yes? Ain't that how and when we get the first 7 days?
What was... before time started?
God; in Eternity.
And what will be... after time stops (at the end of the 1,000-year millennium)?
God; in Eternity.
It's where God hangs out. And eternity has NO BEGINNING. And eternity has NO END. That's why we call God... Eternal... or "timeless". And since we as mortal beings can't comprehend eternity, God, in His infinite wisdom, made those three words the start of the first sentence of the Bible: as an explanation for us to understand when time began...
Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
It's also why we read:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
"with God"...
In this verse, with actually means "to the advantage of". In other words, It served God's purpose to express Himself... to us.
God is a Spirit. "...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
The Word or The Logos--is the "expression" (theophany) of God. God expressed Himself so that we could have some physical form to relate to. He didn't make another God. He didn't split into another personality/person.
God appeared to Adam; to Moses; to Manoah; to Jacob; to Abraham...
He took on a "form" we could relate to. And since Jesus is the Son of God; and Jesus is the Logos--The Expression... did the Son exist before the beginning? Obviously not. God merely "expressed" Himself in a finite form... in the beginning.
That does not mean God is finite. It means He expressed Himself finitely, because we, as finite mortals, are not capable of relating to infinity... any more so than we, as finite mortals, are capable of relating to eternity.
In order to be "Emmanuel--God With Us", (With, here, means "among")Jesus was born of the flesh... the final, and prophesied, finite "expression" of God.
Since Jesus IS God with us, God manifest in flesh... is Jesus one of the "three" persons of God? No. He IS God. The One True God.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
So who is Jesus? He is God among us, manifest in flesh--the only God there is... in the flesh.
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.
Or did God lie?
Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he.]
"That in itself keeps us from being able to figure out some of the formulas that we DEBATE about here, because we cannot see the evidence of the information that the 5th seal holds..."
Why do we need to know more than what is told us regarding that 5th seal? There ain't no specific timing in that seal. The purpose of the 5th seal is to let us know that "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" is not just a metaphor of Paul's.
The timing of the return of Jesus is primarily set by the Trumpets and the Vials. They are specific events "in time". The Seals are merely conditions established primarily by the four spirits released in the earth. The only seals, which have any timing attached to them, are the 6th and 7th Seals.
Since Jesus returns at the time of the 6th Seal, all the Trumpets must have already occured when He shows up, at the soundinig of the (last trump) 7th Trumpet... and consequently, those trumpets CAN'T follow ALL the seals being opened, first... as the 6th Seal is His return. The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial... happen at the same time. That means the 7th Seal has to open AFTER Jesus has returned--not BEFORE He returns.
"...set in motion by GOD back hundreds of millions of millions of ad infinitum years ago in the beginning when GOD is."
You do know that "In the beginning" is a phrase which denotes when time started; yes? Ain't that how and when we get the first 7 days?
What was... before time started?
God; in Eternity.
And what will be... after time stops (at the end of the 1,000-year millennium)?
God; in Eternity.
It's where God hangs out. And eternity has NO BEGINNING. And eternity has NO END. That's why we call God... Eternal... or "timeless". And since we as mortal beings can't comprehend eternity, God, in His infinite wisdom, made those three words the start of the first sentence of the Bible: as an explanation for us to understand when time began...
Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
It's also why we read:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
"with God"...
In this verse, with actually means "to the advantage of". In other words, It served God's purpose to express Himself... to us.
God is a Spirit. "...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
The Word or The Logos--is the "expression" (theophany) of God. God expressed Himself so that we could have some physical form to relate to. He didn't make another God. He didn't split into another personality/person.
God appeared to Adam; to Moses; to Manoah; to Jacob; to Abraham...
He took on a "form" we could relate to. And since Jesus is the Son of God; and Jesus is the Logos--The Expression... did the Son exist before the beginning? Obviously not. God merely "expressed" Himself in a finite form... in the beginning.
That does not mean God is finite. It means He expressed Himself finitely, because we, as finite mortals, are not capable of relating to infinity... any more so than we, as finite mortals, are capable of relating to eternity.
In order to be "Emmanuel--God With Us", (With, here, means "among")Jesus was born of the flesh... the final, and prophesied, finite "expression" of God.
Since Jesus IS God with us, God manifest in flesh... is Jesus one of the "three" persons of God? No. He IS God. The One True God.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
So who is Jesus? He is God among us, manifest in flesh--the only God there is... in the flesh.
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.
Or did God lie?
Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he.]
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B1inHim
LOVE one another
My dear friend,
You reminded me of Peter saying so much... You are correct in your analogy of the 6th seal (if that is your's)... But there is no reason to build a tent here, let the Glory of GOD shine for all to see...
I am seeking closure to some of these threads and a new thread set with a foundation of faith that we can all build on, not debate or tear down.
Love
your servant brother Jerry
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B1inHim,
You wrote:
"You reminded me of Peter saying so much... You are correct in your analogy of the 6th seal (if that is your's)... But there is no reason to build a tent here, let the Glory of GOD shine for all to see...
I am seeking closure to some of these threads and a new thread set with a foundation of faith that we can all build on, not debate or tear down."
***
The Glory of God... is in the truth. And what is that truth? "I am the way, the truth and the life." ...Jesus And I dare say, the Glory of God does shine--everywhere.
I apologize, if I offended you by my many words. However; if you don't agree with what I have to say, you can simply voice that disagreement (ah: that I were so blessed as to be compared to Peter... by our Lord; though I haven't a clue as to your reasoning for it.)
I have no ax to grind, friend; and I am more than open to anyone's critical analysis of scripture. That being said, the issue here lays not in any critical analysis--it lays in criticism... solely for the sake of defending one's own personal take. Be assured: I ain't 'building any tents'--here or anywhere else.
If I may be permitted to ask: What difference could it possibly make as to whether my "analogy" has been formulated by me, Joe Shmoe, or anyone else? If it gets at the truth, who really cares who formulated it?
Faith comes by hearing... and hearing by the word of God. If you are uncomfortable contending for the faith, then it might be more palatable to you to seek to 'build on a foundation of faith' somewhere less contentious than a public forum specifically designed to debate, if you will, the word of God--or, should I say... the word NOT of God: the Word of God is not debatable.
Last I checked , the only foundation of faith for Christians, is Jesus, the Christ... who is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of our faith.
If your 'take' on the Seals of Revelation (or even 'the faith') is the only 'take' people get in a public forum posting regarding those same Seals of Revelation... they may very well believe there are no other 'takes' (including God's.) Wouldn't you rather allow them to consider alternatives--in their pursuit of the truth?
This is why I made the comment: not to "tear down" your faith; rather to build up our faith... in Christ.
You wrote:
"You reminded me of Peter saying so much... You are correct in your analogy of the 6th seal (if that is your's)... But there is no reason to build a tent here, let the Glory of GOD shine for all to see...
I am seeking closure to some of these threads and a new thread set with a foundation of faith that we can all build on, not debate or tear down."
***
The Glory of God... is in the truth. And what is that truth? "I am the way, the truth and the life." ...Jesus And I dare say, the Glory of God does shine--everywhere.
I apologize, if I offended you by my many words. However; if you don't agree with what I have to say, you can simply voice that disagreement (ah: that I were so blessed as to be compared to Peter... by our Lord; though I haven't a clue as to your reasoning for it.)
I have no ax to grind, friend; and I am more than open to anyone's critical analysis of scripture. That being said, the issue here lays not in any critical analysis--it lays in criticism... solely for the sake of defending one's own personal take. Be assured: I ain't 'building any tents'--here or anywhere else.
If I may be permitted to ask: What difference could it possibly make as to whether my "analogy" has been formulated by me, Joe Shmoe, or anyone else? If it gets at the truth, who really cares who formulated it?
Faith comes by hearing... and hearing by the word of God. If you are uncomfortable contending for the faith, then it might be more palatable to you to seek to 'build on a foundation of faith' somewhere less contentious than a public forum specifically designed to debate, if you will, the word of God--or, should I say... the word NOT of God: the Word of God is not debatable.
Last I checked , the only foundation of faith for Christians, is Jesus, the Christ... who is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of our faith.
If your 'take' on the Seals of Revelation (or even 'the faith') is the only 'take' people get in a public forum posting regarding those same Seals of Revelation... they may very well believe there are no other 'takes' (including God's.) Wouldn't you rather allow them to consider alternatives--in their pursuit of the truth?
This is why I made the comment: not to "tear down" your faith; rather to build up our faith... in Christ.
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vinsight4u,
I should have clarified that... because I believe the horses in Zechariah are the four horsemen of the first four seals, it does not mean I accept they have anything directly to do with Jesus on the white horse depicted in Rev 19.
This is Jesus at His return, which is at the final stage of the battle of Armageddon... and it has nothing to do with chapter 19 following chapter 18 or 12 or 13 (perhaps following chapter 6, wherein the 6th seal is opened, which is described as the wrath of the Lamb.) However, He is not the same horseman we see in the 1st Seal.
Let me try this, again:
If the 7 Trumpets have already occured, and the 7 vials have already been poured out, and Jesus returns to duke it out at the end of Armageddon... ... then how can the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials follow the 7 Seals? The return of Jesus happens at the Sixth Seal.
Ya can't have ALL 7 Seals opened and then ALL 7 Trumpets sound... and then ALL 7 Vials poured out... in succession... because the 6th SEAL, the 7th TRUMPET, and the 7th VIAL is Jesus' return.
This means that the sequence of events does not happen as has been pounded into us for 2,000 years, as is generally taught: FIRST the seals opened (starting at the last 7 years)... FOLLOWED BY the trumpets sounding... and finally THE vials are poured out. It just does not fit the scriptures.
If you look closely at the descriptions given, you will discover that the scriptures are quite clear--the 6th SEAL... the 7th TRUMPET... and the 7th VIAL are--ALL THE SAME EVENT. You can also compare them with Mt 24, which contains Jesus' own description to His disciples of what would happen at His return.
Simple; eh? No complicated and intricate calculations... no (few, anyway) disputed interpretations... no painful mental gymnastics... no constant doubt and despair... no unrelenting frustration... no paralyzing fear.
We want to try to equate the "time" that transpires in Heaven to our realm. God don't operate within our limitations of time. There could be thousands of years in Heaven take place in miliseconds on Earth. Or... there could be thousands of years transpire on Earth, while merely miliseconds pass in Heaven. Time, as a rule, is not relevant to prophecy (other than what is specifically stated in scripture, like the last 7 years and the 3.5-year Tribulation, which is critical for a number of reasons.) Timing, though, is relevant.
The reason for the Trumpets and Vials being described, is for the "purpose" of prophecy, which is... "I have told you before it come to pass, that when it come to pass, you might believe." Now, that a number of trumpets have sounded and can be understood, we can believe that the timing has been revealed--in its proper time.
That's why the "timing" of prophecy is important--not the "time" prophecy takes. It's revealed for us to understand it and use it to point out a future event(s) so that when the people we point it out to see it happen, they will believe that God has foretold it... and they may even repent; and be saved.
It also helps us out... so we are not deceived (as if it were possible?)
Here's a general list of major events, and their basic timing, yet to come to pass...
* the war (6th Trumpet) which kills 1/3 of mankind (this is NOT Armageddon--but I suspect 99.9% of the human race will believe it is... including most "Christians")
* the "beast" governmnt will begin to take power
* the confirmation of the covenant happens (70th week starts)
* the Temple will be rebuilt/set-up, along with the resumption of sacrifices
* the "anti-Christ" will stop the sacrifices and sit in the Temple as God, thus revealing himself to some Christians. (middle of 70th week and the start of the 3.5-year Tribulation)
* those who are in Judea will flee to the mountains
* the false prophet will use miracles to convince everyone else the "anti-Christ" has given him the power to do those miracles.
* the two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem.
* the mark will be required in order to exist within most all of society, which virtually all will take.
* many, if not most, Christians will be killed
* the two witnesses will be killed
* the two witnesses will be resurrected
* the nations will come against Israel at Armageddon (end of 70th week)
* Jesus will return with His saints (the actual "rapture"--remember, that time on Earth is not necessarily time in Heaven)... and to do battle.
* Jesus will stomp the eyeballs out of the enemies of Israel... and of Him.
* the false prophet and the "anti-Christ" will be cast into the lake of fire
* Satan will be bound and deposited in the pit
* the Kingdom of God will be set up on Earth for 1,000 years
* more to come...
I should have clarified that... because I believe the horses in Zechariah are the four horsemen of the first four seals, it does not mean I accept they have anything directly to do with Jesus on the white horse depicted in Rev 19.
This is Jesus at His return, which is at the final stage of the battle of Armageddon... and it has nothing to do with chapter 19 following chapter 18 or 12 or 13 (perhaps following chapter 6, wherein the 6th seal is opened, which is described as the wrath of the Lamb.) However, He is not the same horseman we see in the 1st Seal.
Let me try this, again:
If the 7 Trumpets have already occured, and the 7 vials have already been poured out, and Jesus returns to duke it out at the end of Armageddon... ... then how can the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials follow the 7 Seals? The return of Jesus happens at the Sixth Seal.
Ya can't have ALL 7 Seals opened and then ALL 7 Trumpets sound... and then ALL 7 Vials poured out... in succession... because the 6th SEAL, the 7th TRUMPET, and the 7th VIAL is Jesus' return.
This means that the sequence of events does not happen as has been pounded into us for 2,000 years, as is generally taught: FIRST the seals opened (starting at the last 7 years)... FOLLOWED BY the trumpets sounding... and finally THE vials are poured out. It just does not fit the scriptures.
If you look closely at the descriptions given, you will discover that the scriptures are quite clear--the 6th SEAL... the 7th TRUMPET... and the 7th VIAL are--ALL THE SAME EVENT. You can also compare them with Mt 24, which contains Jesus' own description to His disciples of what would happen at His return.
Simple; eh? No complicated and intricate calculations... no (few, anyway) disputed interpretations... no painful mental gymnastics... no constant doubt and despair... no unrelenting frustration... no paralyzing fear.
We want to try to equate the "time" that transpires in Heaven to our realm. God don't operate within our limitations of time. There could be thousands of years in Heaven take place in miliseconds on Earth. Or... there could be thousands of years transpire on Earth, while merely miliseconds pass in Heaven. Time, as a rule, is not relevant to prophecy (other than what is specifically stated in scripture, like the last 7 years and the 3.5-year Tribulation, which is critical for a number of reasons.) Timing, though, is relevant.
The reason for the Trumpets and Vials being described, is for the "purpose" of prophecy, which is... "I have told you before it come to pass, that when it come to pass, you might believe." Now, that a number of trumpets have sounded and can be understood, we can believe that the timing has been revealed--in its proper time.
That's why the "timing" of prophecy is important--not the "time" prophecy takes. It's revealed for us to understand it and use it to point out a future event(s) so that when the people we point it out to see it happen, they will believe that God has foretold it... and they may even repent; and be saved.
It also helps us out... so we are not deceived (as if it were possible?)
Here's a general list of major events, and their basic timing, yet to come to pass...
* the war (6th Trumpet) which kills 1/3 of mankind (this is NOT Armageddon--but I suspect 99.9% of the human race will believe it is... including most "Christians")
* the "beast" governmnt will begin to take power
* the confirmation of the covenant happens (70th week starts)
* the Temple will be rebuilt/set-up, along with the resumption of sacrifices
* the "anti-Christ" will stop the sacrifices and sit in the Temple as God, thus revealing himself to some Christians. (middle of 70th week and the start of the 3.5-year Tribulation)
* those who are in Judea will flee to the mountains
* the false prophet will use miracles to convince everyone else the "anti-Christ" has given him the power to do those miracles.
* the two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem.
* the mark will be required in order to exist within most all of society, which virtually all will take.
* many, if not most, Christians will be killed
* the two witnesses will be killed
* the two witnesses will be resurrected
* the nations will come against Israel at Armageddon (end of 70th week)
* Jesus will return with His saints (the actual "rapture"--remember, that time on Earth is not necessarily time in Heaven)... and to do battle.
* Jesus will stomp the eyeballs out of the enemies of Israel... and of Him.
* the false prophet and the "anti-Christ" will be cast into the lake of fire
* Satan will be bound and deposited in the pit
* the Kingdom of God will be set up on Earth for 1,000 years
* more to come...
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vinsight4u,
OK, then. Far be it from me to try to talk you out of your beliefs. I should point out though, for the potential benefit of others reading--
You write: "Both white horse riders show a ruler who judges with righteousness."
In Revelation, we can read:
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
I can't read anything there that indicates "righteousness" is attached. Also, if we intend to equate the 4 horsemen of Rev with the 4 chariot-horses of Zechariah--I assume this is still part of the equation?--how do we get a specific "man" out of these Zechariah verses?...
Ze 6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country...
...8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
If the White horses, which are clearly stated (by God, Himself) to be "spirits", follow after the Black horses into the north country, and both quiet God's spirit... then wouldn't it make sense that the 1st White Horseman of Revelation would quiet God's spirit, also? And if God's spirit is quieted, how can either the white horses of Zechariah... or, if the equivalent, the 1st White Horseman of Rev... be considered as a "righteous man"?
Obviously, since Zec's white horses do not equate to a "righteous man", if we want to equate Zechariah to Revelation, the 1st White Horseman can't be a "righteous man", either. And even if we don't, there is no indication from Rev 6;2 to indicate any righteousness. Why? Because the horseman is White?
Without, at least, some linking of scripture-backed ideas together, how does one go about validating prophecy... even after it comes to pass?
You also write: "Revelation should be the unsealing of that nation that will provoke Israel to anger."
Revelation is nothing... if not the unveiling of Jesus Christ:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty; the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore...
Worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
OK, then. Far be it from me to try to talk you out of your beliefs. I should point out though, for the potential benefit of others reading--
You write: "Both white horse riders show a ruler who judges with righteousness."
In Revelation, we can read:
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
I can't read anything there that indicates "righteousness" is attached. Also, if we intend to equate the 4 horsemen of Rev with the 4 chariot-horses of Zechariah--I assume this is still part of the equation?--how do we get a specific "man" out of these Zechariah verses?...
Ze 6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country...
...8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
If the White horses, which are clearly stated (by God, Himself) to be "spirits", follow after the Black horses into the north country, and both quiet God's spirit... then wouldn't it make sense that the 1st White Horseman of Revelation would quiet God's spirit, also? And if God's spirit is quieted, how can either the white horses of Zechariah... or, if the equivalent, the 1st White Horseman of Rev... be considered as a "righteous man"?
Obviously, since Zec's white horses do not equate to a "righteous man", if we want to equate Zechariah to Revelation, the 1st White Horseman can't be a "righteous man", either. And even if we don't, there is no indication from Rev 6;2 to indicate any righteousness. Why? Because the horseman is White?
Without, at least, some linking of scripture-backed ideas together, how does one go about validating prophecy... even after it comes to pass?
You also write: "Revelation should be the unsealing of that nation that will provoke Israel to anger."
Revelation is nothing... if not the unveiling of Jesus Christ:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty; the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore...
Worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
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zeke37
IMO...
toxon is a greek word, translated as bow in Rev6:2...
check out the edimology of the word and see if the rider is a good guy or a false guy
see the Strong's Concordance....
ps. the BOW is not a weapon at all, but a BOW of fabric, a cheap copy of the original...a knock off...
Christ has a BOW, and so does this rider of the 1st horse/1st seal...
check out the edimology of the word and see if the rider is a good guy or a false guy
see the Strong's Concordance....
ps. the BOW is not a weapon at all, but a BOW of fabric, a cheap copy of the original...a knock off...
Christ has a BOW, and so does this rider of the 1st horse/1st seal...
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