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walt2000

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You are saying that to bring in another book of the Bible into a discussion of the meaning of the Revelation is a violation of Revelation 22:18, "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book." This is one of the worst cases of wresting scripture that I have ever seen.If you desire to exclude the consideration of any scripture from a discussion of the end times, you are ignoring the fact that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) You are also ignoring the first rule of prophetic interpretation. First, that is, not in my estimation, but in God's, for He said, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:20-21)As the apocalyptic portion of the Revelation opened, John saw a book in the right hand of "him that sat on the throne." This book was "written within and on the backside, and sealed with seven seals." (Revelation 5:1) Where had we seen a sealed book before in scripture? We read in the last chapter of the book of Daniel, "And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." (Daniel 12:8-9)As the Lamb opens each of the seals (in Revelation 6, 7, and 8) we see a vision whose exact meaning can be debated, but there can be no debate about the fact that the subject is mass destruction. There will be a far ranging destruction over much of the world. This much is clear.The opening of the last seal ushered in a series of visions obviously depicting yet more destruction, and then the prophet saw a new vision. An Angel appeared, holding "a little book open." (Revelation 10:2) John was told to eat the book, and then was told that he "must prophesy again about many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." (Revelation 10:11 NKJV)This is followed by another series of visions, but these visions are significantly different from the visions early in the book. Every apocalyptic vision in the rest of the book uses imagery borrowed directly from the book of Daniel, and in that book the meaning of every symbol is clearly stated.What do we learn from all this? We first note that the book in Revelation 5 was "written within and on the back side." What was here called a "book" was in actuality what we would now call a scroll. It was written on both sides. That is, it was full of meaning. But it was sealed. Now we go back to the only book of scripture that was sealed, and what do we find? The futures of many nations are explicitly discussed, but much of what is told has not happened. A fulfillment of these prophecies appears to be impossible, because these nations no longer exist. As the seals on this book which is full of meaning are opened, we see that there is a mass destruction coming. Out current world order will be destroyed.We all remember what happened only a few years ago when Communism collapsed on itself in the former USSR and Eastern Europe. We suddenly began to hear regularly about forgotten nations that we had never heard of. As we grew up, how many of us had ever even heard of Croatia or Serbia? Yet suddenly, when Yugoslavia collapsed, there they were! They had been there all the time, masked by current political realities, and suddenly they were visible again. So we have seen before our very eyes that a destruction of the existing order makes room for the old order to rise up again. The many nations mentioned in Daniel have not ceased to exist. They have simply been masked by current political realities. But when the current political system is destroyed, the old order can again emerge.After the seals were opened, the prophet and apostle John was shown a little book and was told to eat it. The meaning of this is rather obviously that he was not only to read it, but to make it part of himself, to digest it. That is, he was to become so familiar with it that he understood everything it said. This book is"open." That is, it can be read. And it is "little." That is, it is can be understood. I believe that this is the same book seen in chapter 5, and that both books represent the Old Testament book of Daniel.If this interpretation is correct, and I believe it is, then the point of this series of visions is that the book of Daniel cannot be understood without the first part of the book of Revelation, and that the last part of the book of Revelation cannot be understood without the book of Daniel. That is, that these two books can only be rightly interpreted when taken together.But an attempt to interpret the Revelation apart from the rest of scripture could not possibly result in anything but nonsense. The whole thing plus the end is nonsense.
 
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walt2000

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you are breaking your own rules there walt...

not that I believe your interpretation of Rev22:18 at all.
not that anyone else here does either.

That is proving ,not braking any thing, when you or I have it figured out.And You have the Seven Thunders, That is a rule when you are trying to make sense of Revelation and you need to see where the Eighth Thunder is, And we are proving the Prophets .walt2000
 
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walt2000

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This is the little scroll in Ez.2/9,Dan.12/4.Rev.10/4Sweet in the mouth,Sour in the stomach Can any one tell me or interpt.Rev.10/4 using the rule in Rev. 22/18.19 .walt2000 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
zeke37 This is called checking the Prophets .
 
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Covenant Heart

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Here Is My Take:

Most of the misunderstandings about the book of Revelation arise when we fail to grasp what kind of book it is, and what John, by the Spirit’s unction, seeks to accomplish. Revelation is John’s report on his vision. In Re 6:1-10, to which you allude, the verbs ‘saw’ and ‘opened’ reference past time. John reports that he saw the seals opened. So they were opened then.

Many see the Revelation primarily as a prediction book. Certainly there are things to come –most notably, Christ’s return on God’s chariot throne to inaugurate the eternal estate. But that comes at the END of the book – which (wonder of wonders) is where John takes us. But as I see it, the burden of this book is to show the lamb’s followers what faithfulness and witness means. For without that – well – we don’t make it, as Re 22:11-15 shows.

Re 4-5 is what John sees in God’s Royal Throne Room. Other prophets were ushered into God’s divine presence, where they received important information, or a divine perspective that both PREPARED them to minister, and formed the core of their preaching. This was so for Isaiah, Ezekiel and others; now it is John’s turn.

Rather than predicting events, I believe that the seals (as with trumpets and vials) are part of John’s strategy to display TWO contrasting and COMPETITING worldviews that span time from John’s vision, till when Jesus returns.

One is the perspective of this world, a perspective with which John’s hearers were only too familiar. Attachment to the world was pulling some away from faith already. Faithfulness and witness persisted still; but as the seven letters show, a malevolent, spiritual pathology worked in varying ways and degrees in the churches to weaken, corrupt and otherwise destroy them.

The other is the perspective that John beholds in the Presence of God. That perspective plays out very differently. The desire for the blessings of Roman citizenship (the original readership WAS in the Roman Province of Asia), participation in public life, opportunities for commerce and trade, prosperity, respectability and more – all this, John portrays depicts under the image of a hideous, ravenous beast. Translation? Christians are allowed NO alliance – period.

John handles these two perspectives in a kind of running parallel. Not recognizing HOW John is writing, people totally MISS the point of his vision report. The point is NOT to predict specific events, etc. The point is that seen from the EARTHLY perspective, the beast (by any name, in any time or place) SEEMS to win. But in the HEAVENLY perspective of the THRONE ROOM, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. So stay faithful until he comes!

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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Originally Posted by zeke37
seal one is the false Christ, Walt


look up the original language for "bow" in Rev6:2
 
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Douggg

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When will or have the tribulation seals been broken? What is the most significant indicator of where you believe we are at presently in this brief timeline in the world's history?

Hi grace, within the vision, all the seals were broken by Jesus so John could record what he saw.

In terms of fulfillment, none of the seals have been broken. The first seal will be fulfilled when the Antichrist confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week (7 years).

Doug L.
 
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zeke37

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nice post doug. The Seals are information, that is Sealed into the MINDS of the elect.
Seal 1 is the false Christ

but remember that according to Jesus, the time has been shortened...
might not be 7 years...might be mere months....
i think Rev9 tells us the time that it is shortened to...
 
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walt2000

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There is absolutely no evidence to your interpretation of clouds being any more than clouds.
The Only individuals that are mentioned as being with Him would be His angels...
You keep using Matthew 24 and Mark 13 for reference like they are something different when both of them say the almost the same exact thing.
They are the witness of two or more being established, nothing more.

We have shown you countless times that Rev 19 does not say anything about any resurrection for anyone and the people mentioned in it and all the voices heard are in fact coming from heaven. Yet you continue to use it for some type of reference to this...

The use of Heb 12:1 which does in fact refer to a huge crowd is completely out of context when in fact there is no reference to a huge crowd in I Thes 4... Apostle Paul was speaking about faith and all those who had it just prior to him saying NLT
Heb 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us.

For you to try and continue to use that to prove your point is not only out of context, but actually doing injustice to the Word.
I totally get having the “harpazo” taking place after the GT, as long as the GT ends at the opening of the 6th seal. That places us where we are supposed to be in Rev 7. And completely coincides with what happens just prior to what Lord Jesus says in Matthew 24.
However, by your continual demand that we are on the earth in Rev 19 when the Word says differently is making much conflict
I do not know anyone here who has been training to be in an army that will take out the BEAST, his kings of the earth and their armies… I honestly believe that this particular group has been training for this for a lot longer than what we could be trained and beside that, according to Rev 7, we are doing something else.
Rev 7 is the end results of Matthew 24, I Cor 15 and I Thes 4.
Rev 7 is the beginning of our heavenly service to GOD, as a group.

EDITED
The gospel is about believing in our hearts that GOD raised Lord Jesus from the dead and confessing that He is Lord.
This coupled with true repentance brings about the needed change in order to actually become a dedicated child of GOD. Once we are dedicated we are to learn how to live according to His Word…
EDITED
Not knowing when He comes back...
Love,
Brother Jerry

I think I have to agree Brother Jerry.If people insist on braking the rule in Rev.22/18-19 there going to mix them selfs up .Keep all the conclusions to Rev. and Rev.only.walt2000
 
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zeke37

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the elect are on earth in Rev19

they are the "many waters" (verse 6-8) that God declares to "come out of babylon" in Rev17.

they are now ready to wear those robes.

Rev17:15 defines what the many waters are...



and Rev19:11 forward, shows Christ leaving heaven,
with His army (the dead believers/martyrs of Rev6)
to MEET those many waters that have just made themselves ready

just like Mar13, 1The4 and 1Cor15 says (among other places outside The Revelation)
 
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zeke37

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brother Jerry and some others seem to think we are gone at the 6th seal,
left and not around for that which follows (trumps)

when I keep saying that we are not gone anywhere,
because of many reasons

(The beast is against the 2 candlesticks in Rev11...candlesticks defined as churches in Rev1
Satan goes after the Christians in Rev12
false prophet is worshiped because of his miracles and lies, and he looks like a lamb....lamb defined in Rev5





we are here in the trumps

we are gathered to Christ, on Mt Zion,
if we still be faithful at that time,

before the vials of WRATH are poured, but after the trumps.



we are gathered, but not until after the AC does his thing and fools the world, including many, many Christians



seals are not a timeline of events, but rather signs, like Mat24, Mar13, Luke21,
that are sealed into the minds of the elect

Daniel does this too, gives general signs, and then later, goes into detail (like in Dan11)

IMO when we start reading about the "woes" then that is the actual timeline
 
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walt2000

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Are you guys having any trouble with trying to reply to this thread?

I sure have been, and not just today.

Why, are you Having trouble with this thread ?? It' as easy as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. Maybe you have to deprogram Look for structure ,and the use of scriptural Germ atria Isac Newton never found it because he Didn't find the Key.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7279831/#post48440619

St. Jerome and Pope St.Gregory the Great wrote extensively about Germatria and it's significance in Scripture.
Sir Isaac Newton wrote more about germatria and numbers in scripture then he did about the theory of Gravity.( Significance of numbers in scripture )


walt2000
 
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gracechick

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Hi grace, within the vision, all the seals were broken by Jesus so John could record what he saw.

In terms of fulfillment, none of the seals have been broken. The first seal will be fulfilled when the Antichrist confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week (7 years).

Doug L.
I will have to go back and look at that again. I believe I agree with you bro. Lord have mercy when they are open as I don't want to imagine this place worse then it is at present:crosseo:
 
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