SDA Question

[Cliff2]

I get the feeling that you have been avoiding my point. so I will discontinue this. Thank you any way.

Mrs Wildee

I have heard many presentations by Doug Batchelor and in many of them he does not even mention the Sabbath and as I am not sure of the presentation that you refer to it is hard to comment on.

Sometimes he will talk about stealing and not about any of the other commandments but at some time or another he will will talk about not killing.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

Mrs Wildee

I have heard many presentations by Doug Batchelor and in many of them he does not even mention the Sabbath and as I am not sure of the presentation that you refer to it is hard to comment on.

Sometimes he will talk about stealing and not about any of the other commandments but at some time or another he will will talk about not killing.

i am talking about his "Prophycy Code" seminar. he is talking about importance of obeying all ten commandmants and he gave long explanation about his research on Sabbath. and i agree with him. but he never mentions anything about our militaly system. you are avoiding about it too by saying "killing". i understand most churches saying that self defence is not killing. military is trained to kill. its not Biblical self defence. Jesus and his desciples did not kill anybody even for self defence in the NT. thats how i discern. i will not play word games or go into Scripture debate. every time when i mention the "military" all SDA people avoid the word military. that makes me suspicious. if you keep give me the same kind of comments, this is my last post about it.

 

[deu58]

Hi Mrs Wildee

. Jesus and his desciples did not kill anybody even for self defence in the NT. thats how i discern. .

You are correct that the Apostles never killed anyone, The biblical commandment "Thou shall not Kill" is against murder.

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Here is the meaning of the word kill in the Hebrew concerning the commandment,

xcr Ratsach (raw-tsakh'); Verb, Strong #: 7523


to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
(Pual) to be killed

It is a well known biblical fact that many of the commands of the law carried a mandatory death sentence, Now would God say thou shalt not kill and then immediately after that command the Israelites to kill any one who breaks the law???? God is not the author of confusion, One needs to look at the context of what is being said and taught,

The Apostles did indeed pass the death sentence as justice upon certain Christians that did lie and deceive,

Peter spoke a sentence of death upon Ananias and his wife for lying about money,

Ac 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Ac 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.


Ac 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Ac 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Paul spoke a death sentence on two Christians that were spreading false doctrine,

1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Paul told the Corinthian church to pronounce a death sentence upon the mother and her son who were guilty of incest, These two repented of their sin and Paul later forgave them, This shows that these two had fear of Paul and his ability to speak a death sentence that the Holy Spirit would carry out,


1co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus did give the Apostles permission to defend themselves,

Lu 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes *, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Lu 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Self defense is not murder, Protecting your country from an invader or terrorist is not murder, But these things need to tempered with mercy and forgiveness, If a terrorist or enemy soldier surrenders to the proper authorities you do not just shoot them anyway, That is murder,

They are to be taken into protective custody, Any wounds are to be treated and cared for, They are to be fed, clothed and properly sheltered and a court date is set to to investigate the crimes and mete out a sentence that fits the crime,

My hat is off to any one who can watch or suffer to see their loved ones killed and forgive the murderer, I saw a thing on Paula Zahn once about an American family who had their daughter murdered in South Africa, They at first wanted their vengeance against the killer but later not only were there hearts moved to mercy for the killer but they fought to have him released from prison and even sponsored him and brought him to America where they now work together in aiding the poverty stricken in South Africa,

They had the mother and the killer sitting side by side, The show was very moving,

So please do not think that I disrespect your position, I actually do have respect for it, I am just showing that the NT Bible itself does give room for the Military and the judicial system to exercise the option of war and the death sentence if it is Just to do so, And the Apostles exercised that authority themselves

Paul, an Apostle to us the Gentiles did teach,

Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid ; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

dear Due, i appreciate your Scripture quates. but i never go into debate. we can go on forever and no body budge from their view. Jesus says that He came down to fulfill the law. He gave us example how we practice christianity and He and His disciples never killed anybody even for self defence. that's how i discern. most denominations have gimmicks to get people to their denomination. i will not get into those kind of christian practice. Crhistianity is not popularity. you will lose a lot of members if you try to obey all of His commandments. But He is not seeking popularity and i will not seek popular churches or theology either.

sincerely

 

[deu58]

Hello Mrs Wildee

dear Due, i appreciate your Scripture quates. but i never go into debate. we can go on forever and no body budge from their view. Jesus says that He came down to fulfill the low. He gave us example how we practice christianity and He and His disciples never killed anybody even for self defence. that's how i discern. most denomination have gimmicks to get people to their denomination. i will not get into those kind of christian practice. Crhistianity is not popularity. you will lose a lot of members if you try to obey all of His commandments. But He is not seeking popularity and i will not seek popular churches or theology either.

sincerely

Well said sister and I agree, Nor was I trying to change your postion for as I said I do respect those who trully adhere to that interpretation, It takes greater courage to willingly die for ones faith than it does to fight knowing you may have a chance to escape death,

My only intention was to show the balance of the two beliefs in the Bible,

My own personal view, Stress on personal view, is the one who fights for Gods truth and justice and the one who willingly dies for Gods truth and justice will both have their rewards,

God is a master Craftsman and has many different tools in his tool box.

There are the Jeremiahs and there are the Samsons,


How do you define all the commandments? Are you of the Messianic mind set??

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

Hello Mrs Wildee



Well said sister and I agree, Nor was I trying to change your postion for as I said I do respect those who trully adhere to that interpretation, It takes greater courage to willingly die for ones faith than it does to fight knowing you may have a chance to escape death,

My only intention was to show the balance of the two beliefs in the Bible,

My own personal view, Stress on personal view, is the one who fights for Gods truth and justice and the one who willingly dies for Gods truth and justice will both have their rewards,

God is a master Craftsman and has many different tools in his tool box.

There are the Jeremiahs and there are the Samsons,


How do you define all the commandments? Are you of the Messianic mind set??

yours in Christ
deu 58

hi deu, i can not find any denomination or church that i agree since I became christian 7 years ago. i dont even know what the Messianic mind set is. All i know is all of the churches i visited or attended are not interested following all of His teaching by saying "nobody is perfect". and please dont try to persuade me into your beliefs. i have read most of your post in this thread and I get the picture of your practice. we just have to agree to disagree on our practice of christianity. But i agree with the SDA on keeping the abbath on seventh day which is Saturday. this is not popular either. and again, dont try to get me into arguments. i believe their research is unbiased.

 

[deu58]

hi deu, i can not find any denomination or church that i agree since I became christian 7 years ago. .

LOL Something that we have in common!!! Also I should say I do not disagree with the biblical Sabbath, It is the SDA Sabbath that I disagree with,

We keep the Saturday Sabbath here in our Home church also,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

LOL Something that we have in common!!! Also I should say I do not disagree with the biblical Sabbath, It is the SDA Sabbath that I disagree with,

We keep the Saturday Sabbath here in our Home church also,

yours in Christ
deu 58

hi due, Doug Batchelor gives good Scripture study in "Prophycy Code". i recommend it. i am not SDA member and will not going to be but i always learn from every one who has the truth.

 

[Cliff2]

LOL Something that we have in common!!! Also I should say I do not disagree with the biblical Sabbath, It is the SDA Sabbath that I disagree with,

We keep the Saturday Sabbath here in our Home church also,

yours in Christ
deu 58

In case you did not know the SDA Sabbath and the Bible Sabbath as far as I know and can see is the same.

 

[Airdude]

There is no shame in being raised in a church that is against killing of any manner and such beliefs should be respected,

But they should be thankful that there are men and women who are willing to go out and risk it all so that they can have the right to do so in peace and comfort,

This is very true, Most SDAs that I know are very supportive and thankful to the military. I see this a lot since I live very close to Mchord AFB and Fort Lewis and we often see soldiers attending our local churches. They are always welcome.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

This is very true, Most SDAs that I know are very supportive and thankful to the military. I see this a lot since I live very close to Mchord AFB and Fort Lewis and we often see soldiers attending our local churches. They are always welcome.

That's what I thought. You should have said so in the first place then I would not have kept asking you the same question over and over. Your military issue is the same as every other denominations which is a very popular practice. "Narrow is the road that lead to life". Getting paid and being killed is not much of a hero. Christian martyers wont get paid what so ever, and there are many percecuted christians all over the world. All you have to do is look into the internet.

 

[Airdude]

Your military issue is the same as every other denominations which is a very popular practice. "Narrow is the road that lead to life". Getting paid and being killed is not much of a hero. Christian martyers wont get paid what so ever, and there are many percecuted christians all over the world. All you have to do is look into the internet.

If you read in the Old Testament the stories of King David, or Gideon you will see that God at some times in history actually used military force to further His cause. Even though I don't wish to take part in the killing aspect of the military, I do believe the military deserves our support as Christians. Many of the U.S. Military Chaplains happen to be SDA. I fail to see a problem with offering Spiritual or medical aid and comfort to our armed forces.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

If you read in the Old Testament the stories of King David, or Gideon you will see that God at some times in history actually used military force to further His cause. Even though I don't wish to take part in the killing aspect of the military, I do believe the military deserves our support as Christians. Many of the U.S. Military Chaplains happen to be SDA. I fail to see a problem with offering Spiritual or medical aid and comfort to our armed forces.

again i totally disagree on this kind of practice. i dont follow on popular practice.

may God be with you!

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

again i totally disagree on this kind of practice. i dont follow on popular practice.

may God be with you!

I have to agree with the SDAs on this one. Well at least a little bit. There is nothing wrong with serving in the military and especially not when one can be in the medical corp. The commandment is "not murder" in Hebrew it is not "not kill". Therein is a world of difference.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

I have to agree with the SDAs on this one. Well at least a little bit. There is nothing wrong with serving in the military and especially not when one can be in the medical corp. The commandment is "not murder" in Hebrew it is not "not kill". Therein is a world of difference.

this is popular interpretation and practice. i believe churches interpret this way because if you do it the other way you will lose most of the members. its all about the popularity. i dont believe Jesus is happy about it. and i will not debate about it either.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

this is popular interpretation and practice. i believe churches interpret this way because if you do it the other way you will lose most of the members. its all about the popularity. i dont believe Jesus is happy about it. and i will not debate about it either.

Your position on this is untenable. God gave Israel the Ten Commandments. He also commanded them to wipe out entire cities. The Hebrew word is:

ratsach {raw-tsakh'}

1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated

2) accidental

3) as avenger

4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be slain

c) (Piel)

1) to murder, assassinate

2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

d) (Pual) to be killed

It is obvious when studying scripture that God would not make a commandment then command His people to break it. After giving Israel the Ten Commandments He commanded them to go to war as well. God doesn't tell people to do things He told them not to do. The only way this makes any sense is for the commandment to mean not to murder.

Bible translations that list the commandment as "Thou shalt not Murder:

NASB
NIV
NKJV
TLB
YLT

This is not a matter of churches changing doctrine because it is not popular. It is a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth. The commandment most assuredly means not to murder. From the Ten Commandments one cannot make a case for being a pacifist. One could make a case for being such according to Christ's teaching on the second greatest commandment and how to treat our enemies but even that falls apart in the face of the centurion who Christ did not tell to leave military service. If you have a personal conviction to non-violence then by all means follow it but taught as doctrine it is irresponsible and incorrect.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

Your position on this is untenable. God gave Israel the Ten Commandments. He also commanded them to wipe out entire cities. The Hebrew word is:

ratsach {raw-tsakh'}

1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated

2) accidental

3) as avenger

4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be slain

c) (Piel)

1) to murder, assassinate

2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

d) (Pual) to be killed

It is obvious when studying scripture that God would not make a commandment then command His people to break it. After giving Israel the Ten Commandments He commanded them to go to war as well. God doesn't tell people to do things He told them not to do. The only way this makes any sense is for the commandment to mean not to murder.

Bible translations that list the commandment as "Thou shalt not Murder:

NASB
NIV
NKJV
TLB
YLT

This is not a matter of churches changing doctrine because it is not popular. It is a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth. The commandment most assuredly means not to murder. From the Ten Commandments one cannot make a case for being a pacifist. One could make a case for being such according to Christ's teaching on the second greatest commandment and how to treat our enemies but even that falls apart in the face of the centurion who Christ did not tell to leave military service. If you have a personal conviction to non-violence then by all means follow it but taught as doctrine it is irresponsible and incorrect.

Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation. But I don't interpret your way.

may God be with you!

 

[deu58]

Hi Mrs Wildee

this is popular interpretation and practice. i believe churches interpret this way because if you do it the other way you will lose most of the members. its all about the popularity. i dont believe Jesus is happy about it. and i will not debate about it either.

I am afaid I have to agree with you here, It is very true that the church today is interested more in a popular message than a truthfull one, Although I disagree with you in the narrow sense on the point in question I do agree with you in the broad sense that Church's in general are more concerned with popularity than truth,

There is more money to be made in being popular than there is being truthfull

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

Hi Mrs Wildee



I am afaid I have to agree with you here, It is very true that the church today is interested more in a popular message than a truthfull one, Although I disagree with you in the narrow sense on the point in question I do agree with you in the broad sense that Church's in general are more concerned with popularity than truth,

There is more money to be made in being popular than there is being truthfull

yours in Christ
deu 58

i you express this kind of comments, you will make a lot of enemies. their kind of attack is percecution. i believe thats why SDA avoided my question.

 

[Mrs.Wildee]

Deu, it's so offensive that you comment on mine as "narrow minded". I don't know why you cannot find church you agree. When I read your posts, most churches agree with you.