SDA Question

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

1. What test of a prophet frankly i'd like to see this.

Scripture about prophets:
[bible]Deuteronomy 18:22[/bible]
Her three failed prophecies of Christ's return in the 1800's show her to be a false prophet based on this verse alone.
[bible]Jeremiah 23:32[/bible]
This scripture shows that God is actually against those that prophecy falsely which it can be shown beyond the three false prophecies of Christ's return that EGW prophecied falsely.

"What we have seen and heard of the pestilence [of 1849], is but the beginning of what we shall see and hear. Soon the dead and dying will be all around us." (Present Truth, Sept. 1849).

Yet another failed prophecy showing that she prophecied falsely, which scripture shows God is against and will not profit his people.
[bible]Jeremiah 23:25-30[/bible]
It has been proven and accepted by even the SDA church that EGW was a plagiarist.

If every paragraph in the book Great Controversy, written by Ellen White, was properly footnoted, then every paragraph would have to be footnoted.

If she copied anything, and it has been shown MOST of her work was copied some even from fiction, she does not qualify as a prophet according to scripture.
[bible]Isaiah 8:20[/bible]
EGW - Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law. Evangelism, p. 598.
Scripture - And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 1 Timothy 2:14

EGW - God granted their desire, giving them flesh, and leaving them to eat till their gluttony produced a plague. Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 148
Scripture - But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the Lord burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague. Numbers 11:33

EGW - Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. Christ's Object Lessons, p. 155
Scripture - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life... 1 John 5:13

EGW - "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Letter 32, 1899, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129).
Scripture - "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

That's not even all of the contradictions in her writings. Scripture plainly states that if that if someone speaks and is not accordance with the word they have not the light in them. This alone shows just how false EGW's writings are. Would you claim that in light of this part alone her writings should be followed? Maybe you are not aware of everything EGW penned that you must accept if you are an SDA.

2.Ariansim? Where have you heard this?

The resurgence of EGW's teachings throughout the church necessitate a return to Arianism:

"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son…The Father then make known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself." (Spirit of Prophecy, I, p.17+18)

This is the ancient heresy known as promotionism or Arianism. This is against scripture and further goes to show the EGW was not being led by or spoken to by God Allmighty.

3.Biblical Sabbath Keeping?

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates

if this is wrong please explain biblical sabbath keeping. Saturday is the 7th day.

Lets see how the sabbath was kept:

[bible]Exodus 16:23[/bible]
No cooking on the sabbath
[bible]Exodus 16:29[/bible]
No leaving your house
[bible]Exodus 20:10[/bible]
No work on the sabbath this also means not making anyone else work such as using electricity, internet, eating out, and so on. In doing so you make other people sin, if the sabbath is to be kept according to scripture.
[bible]Exodus 31:15[/bible]
How serious was the no work? I think that says it all.

There are no scriptures lifting any of the restrictions placed on the sabbath, if you keep the sabbath you must keep all the rules surrounding it. The SDA teach sabbath-lite which is found nowhere in scripture but only in the writings of EGW.

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

Well i haven't read it all i'm not that paitent what is either the summerized version or the main points

 

[Egghead]

Good post Flesh.

Michael, Im confused.
The previous post seems to have been getting to the point, and making it very short.
I dont think he could have summarized any more than he did.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Good post Flesh.

Michael, Im confused.
The previous post seems to have been getting to the point, and making it very short.
I dont think he could have summarized any more than he did.

I couldn't have. I summarized in the post before that and was asked to expound. Trust me there is MUCH more I could have posted. I have only highlighted the most erroneus things. There are many more. I could literally go on for three of four posts on most of the points I have made.

 

[Michael.C.Hadley]

for some reason my browser didn't load that post but now i see it sorry

 

[Athanasian Creed]

(snip)

2.Arianism? Where have you heard this?

3.Biblical Sabbath Keeping?
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. If this is wrong please explain biblical sabbath keeping. Saturday is the 7th day.

Actually it is more along the lines of Adoptionism than Arianism. The quote from 'flesh99' speaks of the Father bestowing on His Son the status of His equal. NOWHERE in Scripture is this heresy taught or revealed. In fact, John 1:1 states that Jesus was with God (the Father & Spirit) in the beginning AND He was God.
Arianism, on the other hand, is a heresy that teaches Jesus was, is and will always be subordinate to the Father - He is the Father's first creation and then, by Christ, the Father created ALL other things. Modern Arianists would be the JW's and Christadelphians.

As to the Sabbath, you mentioned an Old Testament passage which applied to ISRAEL only as part of God's covenant with the Jews (as did circumcision) In the New Testament, the disciples met on the 1st day of the week - the Lord's Day. Whenever the Jewish Sabbath is mentioned in Acts in relation to the disciples, they are going to synagogue to reason with unbelieving Jews about the Messiahship of Jesus -

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

And again i ask 7th day Sabbath keepers, why didn't the Council in Jerusalem (and the Holy Spirit) place upon the Gentile Christians the requirement of observing the Jewish Sabbath ?? You would think if it was necessary, the Holy Spirit would have relayed that to the Apostles -

Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Hmmm....Sabbath keeping not mentioned !!



Ray

 

[deu58]

Hi clarry

If you have strong concerns about EGW why don't you go straight to the top and ask them the question.

You can do that if you like, here is there email address and they will answer you.

This is the EGW official site and the email address is

http://www.whiteestate.org/

mail@whiteestate.org

You can ask them all the questions you like and am sure they will only be too willing to send you a reply as soon as they can.

I am asking you clarry. You have been accusimg me of lying and taking things out of context whether it be biblical or from the SOP, and yet you will not answer anything at all just demand again and again,

I already know the answers from the top Clarry. They are the same ones you are trying pawn off here, Conditional vs unconditional prophecy, The problem is the fact remains the lord will return during a time of great unbelief,

Not during a time of belief,

Oh Ellen White did not mean the orthodox jews she meant the Karite Jews,

unfortunatly it was another SDA pastor who contacted the Karite Jews and discovered that they to kept the 1844 day of atonement on Sept 23,

http://www.truthorfables.com/Day_of_Atonement_of_the_Karaite.htm

It is rather a long article because the Karites explain alot of things concerning their way of doing things but then they state Sept 23 is the day,

Perhaps it was some aliens on another planet whom she was thinking had some kind of celebration on Oct 22 1844 eh?

So any way you look at it cliff you use False visions and and instructions to interpret the word of God and teach others to do the same

This is just a drop in the bucket clarry,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Cliff2]

Hi clarry



I am asking you clarry. You have been accusimg me of lying and taking things out of context whether it be biblical or from the SOP, and yet you will not answer anything at all just demand again and again,

I already know the answers from the top Clarry. They are the same ones you are trying pawn off here, Conditional vs unconditional prophecy, The problem is the fact remains the lord will return during a time of great unbelief,

Not during a time of belief,

Oh Ellen White did not mean the orthodox jews she meant the Karite Jews,

unfortunatly it was another SDA pastor who contacted the Karite Jews and discovered that they to kept the 1844 day of atonement on Sept 23,

http://www.truthorfables.com/Day_of_Atonement_of_the_Karaite.htm

It is rather a long article because the Karites explain alot of things concerning their way of doing things but then they state Sept 23 is the day,

Perhaps it was some aliens on another planet whom she was thinking had some kind of celebration on Oct 22 1844 eh?

So any way you look at it cliff you use False visions and and instructions to interpret the word of God and teach others to do the same

This is just a drop in the bucket clarry,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I have made it a rule that I do not debate EGW so if you have questions on her ask the EGW Estate and they will only be too happy to answer you.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I have made it a rule that I do not debate EGW so if you have questions on her ask the EGW Estate and they will only be too happy to answer you.

The entire doctrine you espouse is based in EGW writings. You cannot defend SDA doctrine without debating EGW. I show this here in this thread. The non-Biblical sabbath keeping, the non-biblical food laws, and so on are all based on EGWs teachings. You can espouse sabbath keeping all day but you do not keep the sabbath according to scripture so you have to rely on EGW. You can espouse keeping the food laws but the SDA do not keep the food laws given in scripture and so must rely on EGW for that teaching. Without EGW the whole basis for the SDA church crumbles and falls. You asked to see a list and now are refusing to answer that list. Good show!

 

[Cliff2]

The entire doctrine you espouse is based in EGW writings. You cannot defend SDA doctrine without debating EGW. I show this here in this thread. The non-Biblical sabbath keeping, the non-biblical food laws, and so on are all based on EGWs teachings. You can espouse sabbath keeping all day but you do not keep the sabbath according to scripture so you have to rely on EGW. You can espouse keeping the food laws but the SDA do not keep the food laws given in scripture and so must rely on EGW for that teaching. Without EGW the whole basis for the SDA church crumbles and falls. You asked to see a list and now are refusing to answer that list. Good show!

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Check here and see how many are supported by the Bible?

 

[deu58]

Hello Cliff

I have made it a rule that I do not debate EGW so if you have questions on her ask the EGW Estate and they will only be too happy to answer you.

Actually I believe the rule you follow is to spread as much EGW fertilizer as you can under the guise of the bible until you are caught and called on it,

Then when you are caught and it is made obvious you scream foul and say every body is wrong and how dare we post any thing against the holy prophetess,

Then you say prove it so then when it is proved all of sudden you have this policy that you do not debate Ellen White,

Truth is you really do not debate anything any way, As I have said before I believe you are well aware of the problems in the writings of White and are one of those who believe that the truth of the writings out wieghs the errors.

It does not take much common sense to realize that if you could defend the writings you most certainly would, But you will not because you can not,

So even though you have called me a liar on several occasions in the past I do feel vindicated that I have proved my case beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not the one who walks decietfully here,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Check here and see how many are supported by the Bible?

Didn't deu58 already debunk this list?

 

[deu58]

Hi Flesh

Didn't deu58 already debunk this list?

Yep sure did. But even all of that is really unecessary, The only thing a person has to do to show that Adventism is based on pure imagination rather than divine visions is disprove the the Oct 23 1844 sanctury vision.

Hiram Edson had the vision the day after the Great Disappointment, This vision was based on what they believed at the time that Oct 22 was the Jewish Day of Atonement, They were wrong by 1 month.

I have already shown that neither the Orthodox nor the Karite Jews observed Oct 22 but rather in 1844 both groups observed Sept 23,

Do you remember about year or so ago that you and I were in a debate with and SDA named Bob Pickle about Ellen White??

Do you know that he actually wrote the Karite Jews official organization and told them that they really did not know what they were talking about and tried to explain and correct their own history and records keeping to them??

He is pretty desparete to preserve his prophetess's integrity, I read his so called study and what he does is come to the conclusion that the Karite 1844 day of atonement is really not knowable, He does not prove that is or is not Oct 22, He blows alot of smoke saying that this and that can not be knowable,


But apparently he really believed he could give them a lesson on their own history. Now that brother is a true definition of pride and arrogance!!

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Hi Flesh


Yep sure did. But even all of that is really unecessary, The only thing a person has to do to show that Adventism is based on pure imagination rather than divine visions is disprove the the Oct 23 1844 sanctury vision.

Hiram Edson had the vision the day after the Great Disappointment, This vision was based on what they believed at the time that Oct 22 was the Jewish Day of Atonement, They were wrong by 1 month.

I have already shown that neither the Orthodox nor the Karite Jews observed Oct 22 but rather in 1844 both groups observed Sept 23,

Do you remember about year or so ago that you and I were in a debate with and SDA named Bob Pickle about Ellen White??

Do you know that he actually wrote the Karite Jews official organization and told them that they really did not know what they were talking about and tried to explain and correct their own history and records keeping to them??

He is pretty desparete to preserve his prophetess's integrity, I read his so called study and what he does is come to the conclusion that the Karite 1844 day of atonement is really not knowable, He does not prove that is or is not Oct 22, He blows alot of smoke saying that this and that can not be knowable,


But apparently he really believed he could give them a lesson on their own history. Now that brother is a true definition of pride and arrogance!!

yours in Christ
deu 58

Even without the obscure references to different Jewish sects the prophecies of EGW fall flat when compared to scripture. It becomes obvious with any Bible save the Clear Word "paraphrase". Although the references to the Karites completely disolve the whole foundation it is still possible to see the errors without it.

Yeah Bob Pickle was a character. Did he really try to correct the Karites?

 

[deu58]

Hi Flesh

Even without the obscure references to different Jewish sects the prophecies of EGW fall flat when compared to scripture. It becomes obvious with any Bible save the Clear Word "paraphrase". Although the references to the Karites completely disolve the whole foundation it is still possible to see the errors without it.

Yeah Bob Pickle was a character. Did he really try to correct the Karites?

Hi Flesh.

Yep, As a matter of fact he posted here at CF about it,

http://www.christianforums.com/t28672-ellen-white.html&page=12

Simply put, Nehemia Gordon asked me to send him the sources I turned up. In other words, "the Karaites" asked me to send him my info so that he could better figure out what happened back then.

He also suggested a simple way to settle the matter once and for all, but I didn't have the money, and Sanders had no interest, which says something. Sanders' mind is made up, and he wouldn't want to find evidence to the contrary.

But on the Karaite issue, the question is not what they did or did not do in 1844. The issue is what they should have done. Was the barley ripe enough to start the Jewish year in March in the year 1844? That's the question. What the Karaites were doing is not necessarily relevant.


I guess what Pickle means by "not what they did but what they should have done" was that they should have contacted Ellen White first and made sure that they were keeping the right day so as not cause the SDA's any inconvenience in the future,

Apparently the Karites were not convinced by Pickles argument because they still have this link to ex SDA pastor Robert Sanders site on FAQs page concerning the 1844 atonement date,

http://www.karaite-korner.org/karaite_faq.shtml

What was the Karaite date for Yom Kippur in 1844?

See: http://www.truthorfables.com/Day_of_Atonement_of_the_Karaite.htm

Here is the pretty much the end result of Pickles "study"

Though the Karaites of Palestine may have abandoned their form of reckoning by 1860, they were still at it in 1836. So says a knowledgeable former Rabbi who was there at the time. Thus it is entirely possible that they were still at it in 1844.

He really could not prove his case that Oct 22 is the real day of atonement for 1844 so he tries to show the Karites can not really prove any thing either,The whole "study" can be seen here,

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/karaite-reckoning-1844.htm#conclusion

The Karites did give him a link on their links page though, It is labeled " More on Yom Kippur 1844"

Yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Hi Flesh




Hi Flesh.

Yep, As a matter of fact he posted here at CF about it,

http://www.christianforums.com/t28672-ellen-white.html&page=12

Simply put, Nehemia Gordon asked me to send him the sources I turned up. In other words, "the Karaites" asked me to send him my info so that he could better figure out what happened back then.

He also suggested a simple way to settle the matter once and for all, but I didn't have the money, and Sanders had no interest, which says something. Sanders' mind is made up, and he wouldn't want to find evidence to the contrary.

But on the Karaite issue, the question is not what they did or did not do in 1844. The issue is what they should have done. Was the barley ripe enough to start the Jewish year in March in the year 1844? That's the question. What the Karaites were doing is not necessarily relevant.


I guess what Pickle means by "not what they did but what they should have done" was that they should have contacted Ellen White first and made sure that they were keeping the right day so as not cause the SDA's any inconvenience in the future,

Apparently the Karites were not convinced by Pickles argument because they still have this link to ex SDA pastor Robert Sanders site on FAQs page concerning the 1844 atonement date,

http://www.karaite-korner.org/karaite_faq.shtml

What was the Karaite date for Yom Kippur in 1844?

See: http://www.truthorfables.com/Day_of_Atonement_of_the_Karaite.htm

Here is the pretty much the end result of Pickles "study"

Though the Karaites of Palestine may have abandoned their form of reckoning by 1860, they were still at it in 1836. So says a knowledgeable former Rabbi who was there at the time. Thus it is entirely possible that they were still at it in 1844.

He really could not prove his case that Oct 22 is the real day of atonement for 1844 so he tries to show the Karites can not really prove any thing either,The whole "study" can be seen here,

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/karaite-reckoning-1844.htm#conclusion

The Karites did give him a link on their links page though, It is labeled " More on Yom Kippur 1844"

Yours in Christ
deu 58

Now there is a real blast from the past. I had no idea he went to try and correct the people who actually celebrated the holiday and then fell back the "they can't prove it either so I am right" argument. I do remember his website being full of bad exposition and really tenous at best conclusions though.

 

[BrightCandle]

Now there is a real blast from the past. I had no idea he went to try and correct the people who actually celebrated the holiday and then fell back the "they can't prove it either so I am right" argument. I do remember his website being full of bad exposition and really tenous at best conclusions though.

flesh99 and deu58:

You two seem to really enjoy "roasting" SDAs and EGW. The fact of the matter is that, the reason that most SDAs don't quote EGW is that alls 28 of our fundamental beliefs can easily be proved using only the 66 books of the Bible, without quoting one word of EGW! Additionally, all of the core doctrinal beliefs of SDAs were held true by other Chrisitan churches before the SDA church even existed, with the exception of the unique light on the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, which is described in the book of Hebrews, and the understanding that Sunday worship, at the end of time, as opposed to Sabbath worship will be a sign as to who has the mark of the Beast, or not. It is significant that SDAs are often criticized for our understanding of these deep subjects of Scripture, but our opponents most often do not have any understanding at all to offer in their place!

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

due58 has already addressed the 28 fundamental beliefs.

I have shown over and over again that the SDA sabbath keeping is not anywhere near Biblical. You cannot support the way the SDA keep the Sabbath without EGW's writings because it is not found in scripture. You claim that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast is actually likely a violation of the forum rules as well and you may want to edit that out. Should you choose to do so I will remove that part of my post as well.

 

[Airdude]

due58 has already addressed the 28 fundamental beliefs.

28? Last I checked we only had 27. Did they sneak a new one in on me? I better go and check it out!

 

[Airdude]

I have shown over and over again that the SDA sabbath keeping is not anywhere near Biblical. You cannot support the way the SDA keep the Sabbath without EGW's writings because it is not found in scripture.

Really, how long has it been since you read the fourth commandment. I'll give you a hint. It begins with "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy"

The word "Sabbath" refers to the seventh day of the week.

You claim that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast is actually likely a violation of the forum rules

I would prefer to submit to God rather than man! If this puts us in violation of someones earthly rules then so be it.